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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    How is CoS released for a couple hundred people at most? That’s just completely wrong.

    Those who can’t do mythic can do CoS on LFR, normal and heroic. That’s literally the point of having those difficulties. People are expecting to be able to slam mythic bosses a few weeks after the raid comes out and when they can’t they complain? That makes no sense to me. There are 4 difficulties of CoS, anyone can complete the raid. Mythic is not designed for everyone so not everyone will complete it.

    Not completing mythic doesn’t mean the raid was only designed for those who can, it just means that difficulty was designed that way which is fine. The raid wasn’t wasted resources considering there’s thousands who’ve cleared normal and heroic. I highly doubt mythic difficulty itself is wasted resources either considering there’s usually only a few new mechanics and some harder tuning compared to heroic.
    The very name of this thread contains the word "mythic". Of course people are doing other difficulty. But Mythic is just a mess to a degree that has never happened before. When ToV wasn't as popular as Blizzard hoped, they buffed the drops by 5 ilvls. They can't do that here, because there is a cap in place. Rewards don't match the difficulty at all, to a much higher degree than normal.

    And the usual "mythic is not for everyone"... no shit. Who exactly do you think is "everyone"? Mythic Jaina was defeated by a bit over 10000 people - is that "everyone"? Wait, no, that's a tiny minority of the playerbase. And now there's a boss that's even harder than that - who realistically needs crazy nerfs or 8.2 to be in range of vast majority of said guilds. There's "exclusivity" and there's stupidity.

    What amuses me is that there's people who are appearently ecstatic at the difficulty - not because they actually raid the place, but because it made "the race" so exciting. I guess it's understandable - they'll never even touch the boss, so they never think "what is with this tuning? who designed this boss?". Obviously bosses get nerfed as the time goes, but there has to be a limit where that stops making sense. When even the world first needs multiple nerfs and crazy stacking, someone went too far - and this better not be some new absurd standard.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    The very name of this thread contains the word "mythic". Of course people are doing other difficulty. But Mythic is just a mess to a degree that has never happened before. When ToV wasn't as popular as Blizzard hoped, they buffed the drops by 5 ilvls. They can't do that here, because there is a cap in place. Rewards don't match the difficulty at all, to a much higher degree than normal.

    And the usual "mythic is not for everyone"... no shit. Who exactly do you think is "everyone"? Mythic Jaina was defeated by a bit over 10000 people - is that "everyone"? Wait, no, that's a tiny minority of the playerbase. And now there's a boss that's even harder than that - who realistically needs crazy nerfs or 8.2 to be in range of vast majority of said guilds. There's "exclusivity" and there's stupidity.

    What amuses me is that there's people who are appearently ecstatic at the difficulty - not because they actually raid the place, but because it made "the race" so exciting. I guess it's understandable - they'll never even touch the boss, so they never think "what is with this tuning? who designed this boss?". Obviously bosses get nerfed as the time goes, but there has to be a limit where that stops making sense. When even the world first needs multiple nerfs and crazy stacking, someone went too far - and this better not be some new absurd standard.
    We’re working on cabal currently and I’m perfectly fine with how the raid is. It’ll take a pretty long time to clear and that’s awesome. Hell, having multiple raids out at the same time to clear is even more awesome. We haven’t had that in a bit and I enjoyed it when we did. If CoS stays how it is it’ll be a side-raid that people will chip away at. Similar to how Cata raids functioned with guilds around the world 300-400 level.

    And yeah, mythic isn’t for everyone. We’ve established that several times. Clearly when speaking about everyone in this context it means everyone who partakes in raiding, not everyone in the game. Figured that was obvious considering we’re in a thread about raiding. You stated multiple times that “CoS was a waste of resources” which is completely false. If you’re only talking about mythic then you have no idea how many will clear the raid by the time 8.2 is over so that’s just as ridiculous as stating CoS itself was a waste of resources.

    I don’t mind if the raid gets nerfed but I also like the idea of having a raid to work on for a while. They could add some rewards to make it “worth” doing for people who want that but at this point they can’t do that. They probably should’ve though. Based on the experience I’ve had in the raid and what we’ve been able to see through streams, it seems like these bosses are hard for the right reasons (well formed strategy being required, multiple hard mechanics, tight tuning, etc) which I think is great compared to a boss like Jaina. I’ve had a lot more fun on cabal than I have on Jaina tbh.
    Last edited by Taeldorian; 2019-05-04 at 08:27 PM.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    What amuses me is that there's people who are appearently ecstatic at the difficulty - not because they actually raid the place, but because it made "the race" so exciting.
    Most people that think the raid is "fine" aren't actual mythic raiders. They have no ambition to ever down the boss themselves. For them, the harder the better, even if it's BS levels of difficulty like current CoS. They like to watch the likes of Method wiping over 700 times, which is fine I guess.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senel View Post
    Most people that think the raid is "fine" aren't actual mythic raiders. They have no ambition to ever down the boss themselves. For them, the harder the better, even if it's BS levels of difficulty like current CoS. They like to watch the likes of Method wiping over 700 times, which is fine I guess.
    And after watching said wipes, they'll still go "this isn't bad, but in the old days, the bosses stayed alive for months!"

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    Then they either need to hire a new team, hire Method (or some other guild typically in WF contention). How the hell can you say you tested something when you didn’t actually test it?

    Hell what is the purpose of this internal raid team Ion talks about to begin with then?
    They test it, then they add a general "Method buff" to account for the fact that the in-house guild aren't always going to be the best players on the planet, because... y'know, those guys want to play the game, not do it as a job. After the Xavius debacle, they'd rather release something that can't be killed initially and nerf it than release something too easy and have it be walked over in a couple of hours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Mexico is already part of the USA so is Canada

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by TwitchPrime View Post
    What is the point of this thread? Mythic Kil'jaeden took more than 800 pulls, closer to 900 and it was killed by almost 900 guilds. The encounter is going to be nerfed every week just like all mythic bosses.
    He has the point right there.... something's FUCKY!

  7. #67
    to be fair, in the case of M KJ, method had 2 or so days with the boss in a state where doing anything past phase 1 was reportedly borderline impossible due to ridiculous damage in p1 and 1st intermission leaving you down a decent chunk of people before p2 starts, so there was probably a decent number of wipes spent doing that version rather than the version they killed.
    Also repeated nerfs after that, including heavy nerfs (and increased understanding) of intermission 2.

    Also, ToS had some really heavy nerfs the last month or 2 it was out (especially to avatar/mistress/KJ) some of which were kind of overkill imo like the nerf to avatar's healing debuff.
    By the time my guild was doing the KJ the only thing that felt incredibly hard that wasn't stupid to wipe to was p3 and the 2nd wave of dps adds.
    And in the case of mistress, the largest issue with the fight from the beginning was just the fact that bad rng in p3 could make it impossible for most people to dodge tornadoes, leading to a wipe, and no amount of nerfs really ever fixed that rng wipe from happening.

    In fact in recent tiers we've been seeing a lot of bosses with versions only seen (or killed) by some number of guilds in the top 20-100:
    2 heal elisande+2heal augur
    most of pre-nerf ToV beyond odyn
    KJ had another wave of nerfs like right after he was killed, and the pre-set intermission 2 that required goblin racial instead of just gateway
    troll/elf stack jaina
    3chains argus
    4 warlock ghuun

    yeah though I expect over the last 2 months of the tier, some of the more class-stacking mitigated stuff to be nerfed
    Like a good example is: since so many guilds were using rogues or a few other defensives to greatly lower the healing needed on aggramar before each blazing sweep, in april (5 months into the tier), blizz lowered the dmg on it.
    I would not be surprised to see something similar happen to uunat's eyes of nzoth dmg as not every guild has the monks/rogues/locks/mages that can heavily lower the healing needed for each round of lasers.

    also I think the dps check, especially the p3 soft enrage with people dying to torments, will likely be nerfed too, on top of possibly another jaina dps check nerf, and idk what they might do for cabal, and Im not actually sure it needs much more nerfs after the extended enrage timer other than maybe slightly lower hp if guilds continue to struggle to kill it.

    Also another thing that would help people with jaina would be a skip to mekka or stormwall, so they could get gear from later bosses without wasting an hour or re-clearing the first 6 that they dont need as much loot from.
    Last edited by ryklin; 2019-05-05 at 08:39 AM.

  8. #68
    For the average Mythic guild, Crucible of Storms is currently not worth the time apparently. Which is a first in the history of this game where we have actively decided to not pursue it.

    The fact that there are practically 0 rewards for it enforces the worthlessness of wasting time on it.

    We are <150 World.
    @Baleful Post #51 You put it well. I am rerolling from monk to priest as well because of the first boss. Although now, we're probably not even going to push the first boss. We have a total of about 3 pulls on it in Mythic.
    Last edited by Huzzaa; 2019-05-05 at 01:10 PM.

  9. #69
    pretty sure the average mythic guild is still on jaina atm. top 1000-1500 kills is usually what i consider the average.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by horbindr View Post
    pretty sure the average mythic guild is still on jaina atm. top 1000-1500 kills is usually what i consider the average.
    That's "average Cutting Edge guild". Average Mythic guild probably didn't make it past Mekkatorque yet. Or Opulence, if we go by the true definition of average, but that's skewed by Champions being a total joke.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    That's "average Cutting Edge guild". Average Mythic guild probably didn't make it past Mekkatorque yet. Or Opulence, if we go by the true definition of average, but that's skewed by Champions being a total joke.
    Well, considering the outspoken difficulty intent for CoS you obviously measure by average Cutting Edge guild. Any other measurement is naive.

  12. #72
    I just don't get the point of making these bosses as hard as Jaina or harder. It should have been an alternate to mechatorque or something. Most likely people will struggle to even down Jaina so this raid won't even be seen by the average mythic guild. Yet the loot on heroic isn't even worth the time to do since mythic+ and farm BoD mythic bosses. Before our guild fell apart from having trouble keeping a roster together and people showing up we weren't even sure we'd be able to get cutting edge Jaina. Too many people are burnt out or quitting to make such a hard filler raid.

    It should have been an almost nerf to BoD by providing gear to kill Jaina.
    Last edited by GreenJesus; 2019-05-05 at 10:29 PM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    It should have been an almost nerf to BoD by providing gear to kill Jaina.
    Half of that gear is nearly useless, if not by having lower ilvl, then by its' multiple intentional drawbacks. There's multiple items which lets you deal more take while taking more damage - which is kinda of a risky business on Jaina. Then there's some bizarre "might kill you if you move" stuff. Or "miniscule shield that only matters for healers and is still far worse than a single azerite trait."

    It wouldn't really change a thing - not unless it had a guaranteed socket or something. Which is kind of the issue here, the place is nearly worthless loot wise - in order to kill the mythic version and get 420/425 stuff, you need gear that's just as good.

    ToV at least had some specific relics which were "needed" for certain specs. Maybe if CoS dropped some unique Azerite armor with couple good traits... but it doesn't, so meh.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Half of that gear is nearly useless, if not by having lower ilvl, then by its' multiple intentional drawbacks. There's multiple items which lets you deal more take while taking more damage - which is kinda of a risky business on Jaina. Then there's some bizarre "might kill you if you move" stuff. Or "miniscule shield that only matters for healers and is still far worse than a single azerite trait."

    It wouldn't really change a thing - not unless it had a guaranteed socket or something. Which is kind of the issue here, the place is nearly worthless loot wise - in order to kill the mythic version and get 420/425 stuff, you need gear that's just as good.

    ToV at least had some specific relics which were "needed" for certain specs. Maybe if CoS dropped some unique Azerite armor with couple good traits... but it doesn't, so meh.
    That's my point. The gear is worthless yet the raid is harder than Jaina in a tier that people are already burn out and quitting. They should have made at least the first boss Rastakan difficulty so people can at least get their foot in the door of the raid. But now unless you have killed Jaina no one will even attempt doing it. Then 8.2 will launch and it will be a joke with nothing there worth going back to do it besides "cutting edge". But at that point who cares? Not to mention the raid requires class stacking to the extreme so you can't even play the character you want to play.
    Last edited by GreenJesus; 2019-05-06 at 12:06 AM.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    thats the thing. You wont overgear it. ever. Most guilds wont even have the ilvl method and pieces has currently.
    Not until the next raid comes. This more than anything else is why this boss will be impossible for so many guilds.
    You will outgear it, you even said so yourself, "when the next raid comes." Cutting edge will be available for this next raid, so it'll be out-geared eventually.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by siskokid21 View Post
    You will outgear it, you even said so yourself, "when the next raid comes." Cutting edge will be available for this next raid, so it'll be out-geared eventually.
    The gear you get is already mediocre save for a few pieces, when 8.2 releases it will be hot garbage (you can get better shit from Nazjatar WQs) and unlike ToV the place doesn't have the saving grace of a unique title and mog set to make you come back.

    By the time we outgear it enough to no longer require absurd class stacking and hundreds of wipes, nobody will care about this raid at all. I'm not sure if Blizzard just designed this for the sake of streaming or whatever, but I sure do hope this design is tossed to the garbage bin. Mechanically the two bosses are fine, but the tuning is so over-the-top that it ruins what could have been a fun distraction until the next big raid is out.

  17. #77
    It 100% will be as it will get nerfed.

  18. #78
    The average mythic guild can't stack 5+ of any given class/spec at a whim. If they can, those characters won't all be ~415ilvl+ with a 43+ neck. In it's current iteration, Mythic Crucible isn't killable by your average mythic guild.
    Whaleshark /spits on your science.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Irefusetodie View Post
    The average mythic guild can't stack 5+ of any given class/spec at a whim. If they can, those characters won't all be ~415ilvl+ with a 43+ neck. In it's current iteration, Mythic Crucible isn't killable by your average mythic guild.
    Takes a week and a half to get a fresh leveled character to 48 neck, and 1 mythic bod clear with some gear type stacking + some m+ to be at a reasonable gear level, maybe 2 bod clears.
    So if you wanted to stack a character, if you started this week before your raid cleared bod for gear, you'd be ready for next week.

    It's an issue of people having a lack of interest in putting in the time, or the lack of skill to multi-class. Gear and neck level is not an issue. Just player skill+time investment they're willing to do.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    The gear you get is already mediocre save for a few pieces, when 8.2 releases it will be hot garbage (you can get better shit from Nazjatar WQs) and unlike ToV the place doesn't have the saving grace of a unique title and mog set to make you come back.

    By the time we outgear it enough to no longer require absurd class stacking and hundreds of wipes, nobody will care about this raid at all. I'm not sure if Blizzard just designed this for the sake of streaming or whatever, but I sure do hope this design is tossed to the garbage bin. Mechanically the two bosses are fine, but the tuning is so over-the-top that it ruins what could have been a fun distraction until the next big raid is out.
    I feel like people just forget Trial of Valor Existed, and how hard Helya was for the average guild until Nighthold gear was available. I wouldn't really consider the raid pointless in time either, as you will still obtain the cutting edge achievement, which for many is all that matters.

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