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  1. #81
    Scarab Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by siskokid21 View Post
    I feel like people just forget Trial of Valor Existed, and how hard Helya was for the average guild until Nighthold gear was available. I wouldn't really consider the raid pointless in time either, as you will still obtain the cutting edge achievement, which for many is all that matters.
    I feel like people forget that during ToV, we were getting legendaries and upgrading our artifact - so there was actual power growth every week. Helya was still way easier than Uu'nat and Odyn, while fairly challenging, didn't require any stacking. Plus, you had relics with traits that were rare/unavailable in other places, which was way bigger deal than the gimmicky crap that drops in CoS.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Senel View Post
    Most people that think the raid is "fine" aren't actual mythic raiders. They have no ambition to ever down the boss themselves. For them, the harder the better, even if it's BS levels of difficulty like current CoS. They like to watch the likes of Method wiping over 700 times, which is fine I guess.
    That’s an extremely weird generalization. We’re working on mythic cabal now and I think the raid is fine. I’m not sure why people are spazzing out that the raid might actually take a while to clear for average CE guilds. If people are burning out from Jaina then just don’t do CoS? There’s really nothing that comes from it anyway. If people are burning out from BoD then I’m not sure how making the raid a bit easier will help that, it’s not like they’re going to nerf it into oblivion (which is what it would take to make the raid doable by your average mythic guild) in the first few months of release.

    Not only that, but method wiping 700 times doesn’t mean the world 200-1000 guilds will. Usually once the top few guilds are done clearing the raid there’s a set strategy that takes the best parts of each guilds strat which makes the raid a bit easier than how it was for guilds like method/limit/pieces going in completely fresh having to form a strat on their own. These bosses weren’t tested either so the top guilds had no info going in.

    However I definitely think it’ll get nerfed. I don’t care if it does or doesn’t but I believe it will eventually as all raids do. The main problem is that the raid doesn’t really drop anything worthwhile but that makes it easier for guilds who can’t clear it to just relax and wait for nerfs.
    Last edited by Taeldorian; 2019-05-06 at 10:54 AM.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by goriander View Post
    CE CoS will remain available until the end of 8.2. Not that the achievement is worth anything at that point though, just as it wont be worth anything if the raid is nerfed to oblivion. Then it'll be easily doable even for below average guilds, so what's wrong with a raid that's difficult on release like this?
    I thought this was 8.2 Well then, then the tuning makes sence.

    Else it really whouldve been quite insane.
    going to be interesting to see how many downs it be4 azshara raid comes around.
    Last edited by Aphrel; 2019-05-06 at 01:26 PM.
    "My brother thinks I'm crazy to play the same game for years. He doesn't understand. I plan to play it for the rest of my life."

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by siskokid21 View Post
    I feel like people just forget Trial of Valor Existed, and how hard Helya was for the average guild until Nighthold gear was available.
    Tbh Halion, Trial of Valor and now Crucible reinforce me in my opinion small raids suck. I'd rather have one 12 boss raid than these "fillers". I haven't done mythic Helya pre-Nighthold not even because it was considered impossible, but because we went on xmas break and then had way too little time to learn the fight (2 weeks until Nighthold and in 1 week we barely got it to first intermission). Halion back in the day my guild killed once on normal and didn't even bother trying on heroic (it was equivalent to hc / mythic nowadays, current "normal" was added in MOP). It was a fairly casual guild but we didn't find any enjoyment in Ruby Sanctum raid.

    Tbh Throne of 4 Winds wasn't my favourite either but it was released together with the other 2 raids not few months later as a "filler".

    The only "filler" raid I managed to enjoy was revamped Onyxia, and that was because it was so widely puggable with alts it gave me stuff to do, and had decent loot as well including unique helmets and weapons.

    Anyway Helya had few sizable nerfs, for example reducing number of required dispels every wave from 5 to 4, to reduce necessity of using warlock with imp dispel or priests with mass dispel.

    Rewards wise, TOV had unique transmog while CoS has same armor style as BODA.

    Also Helya didn't take 750 wipes even pre-nerf. It required farming to 35 traits and that was the biggest hurdle early on. But not 750 wipes after all upgrades were obtained. Atm we're at gear and ap cap, there's barely anything to "farm" to increase your odds.

  5. #85
    End bosses are made for 1% raiders. If you are in that category and regularly killing end bosses (probably should have killed Jaina by now), you should be progressing on this boss. Even if it's unkillable in its current state, it'll be nerfed enough to be killable.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    I’m not sure why people are spazzing out that the raid might actually take a while to clear for average CE guilds.
    Maybe because it has something to do with requiring extreme class stacking on top of perfect play? Hmmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    Not only that, but method wiping 700 times doesn’t mean the world 200-1000 guilds will. Usually once the top few guilds are done clearing the raid there’s a set strategy that takes the best parts of each guilds strat which makes the raid a bit easier than how it was for guilds like method/limit/pieces going in completely fresh having to form a strat on their own. These bosses weren’t tested either so the top guilds had no info going in.
    Yeah the "strategy" is mainly bench all your melee players and stack shamans, shadow priests and warlocks. I'm sure we all learnt that from their kills. If it took 700+ tries for the best players in the world, we can surely do it in a few only right? Strange how there's only 3 Uunat kills so far...

    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    However I definitely think it’ll get nerfed. I don’t care if it does or doesn’t but I believe it will eventually as all raids do. The main problem is that the raid doesn’t really drop anything worthwhile but that makes it easier for guilds who can’t clear it to just relax and wait for nerfs.
    Which is exactly the problem. Raid does not drop anything. There are no power increases. The only winning move is not to play.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Senel View Post
    Maybe because it has something to do with requiring extreme class stacking on top of perfect play? Hmmm...


    Yeah the "strategy" is mainly bench all your melee players and stack shamans, shadow priests and warlocks. I'm sure we all learnt that from their kills. If it took 700+ tries for the best players in the world, we can surely do it in a few only right? Strange how there's only 3 Uunat kills so far...


    Which is exactly the problem. Raid does not drop anything. There are no power increases. The only winning move is not to play.
    1. There will be plenty of guilds that can do the fights without stacking. I’m unsure about Uunat as we aren’t there yet but there’s plenty of guilds that are doing cabal with 2 spriest/2 locks and 1-2 eles as opposed to the comps you see on methods stream or limits stream. By the time we get to uunat I’m assuming he’ll be nerfed like most bosses but if not we go with what we have and that’s that. There will certainly be a way to kill the boss without 12 warlocks or 10 ele shamans. The perfect comp you see on the top tier streams rarely translates to what actual comps look like when world 300-400 kills start coming in.

    2. Why is 3 uunat kills surprising to you? Mythic is barely even out yet. It’s been what? 2 weeks? I’m not surprised that people are upset we’re getting very hard bosses. It’s a 2 boss raid with 2 very hard bosses, you won’t be seeing world 500 kills for a while. A raid with 2 very hard bosses will definitely take longer than a raid with 1 hard boss and 8 relatively easy bosses. I’m not sure why you’re claiming this raid is “undoable” by guilds that aren’t in the top 10-100. It’ll take a while for people to start getting kills, it’s not going to happen instantly especially with two bosses like cabal and Uunat but it will happen.

    3. I agree with this completely. They definitely should’ve added some sort of reward. Either make the gear actually matter or add a mount or something. I’m not sure but the gear being bad is definitely a problem. The only winning move is to do whatever you want as a guild. Our guild wants to kill the bosses so we will eventually, we’ve already started on 1. If you’re guild doesn’t like the raid or doesn’t care for it then there’s no harm in not doing it.

    Regardless I’m not even sure what you’re upset about. If you haven’t killed Jaina yet then you shouldn’t even be worried about CoS. If you -just- killed Jaina then do what your guild needs, either take a break until nerfs happen or progress the first boss. There will definitely be nerfs to both BoD and CoS in due time.

    It’s weird. You said that anyone who thinks the raid is fine isn’t actually a mythic raider meanwhile your upset about a boss you aren’t even on yet. Hell it doesn’t sound like you’re even close, by the time you get there it’ll probably be nerfed. We have a very long time to finish the raid if CE doesn’t go away with 8.2.
    Last edited by Taeldorian; 2019-05-06 at 10:40 PM.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    We have a very long time to finish the raid if CE doesn’t go away with 8.2.
    Is there actually an official Blizzard statement CE / AOTC for COS stays past 8.2 or is it just pure speculation?

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Is there actually an official Blizzard statement CE / AOTC for COS stays past 8.2 or is it just pure speculation?
    I said “if” so it’s speculation on my part, however the reason people are stating this is because of Nighthold I believe. You could still get ToVs CE when nighthold came out all the way until ToS, so people are operating under the assumption CoS will work the same.

    Personally I have no idea but if CoS CE goes away when 8.2 comes out there’ll be maybe 50-60 guilds that got it which will be insanely low which is why I think it’ll last past 8.2. Nothing is confirmed though unless I missed something.

  10. #90
    The only thing CoS does is continue Blizz's long line of terrible design decisions in BFA. Like seriously who does this raid benefit except for Method due to twitch views and forumgoers who follow the race but don't even play the game. The game is already bleeding subs and more guilds are dying each day (just look at the pitiful Jaina kill numbers). But apparently designing a raid for 20 guilds in the world seems like a good idea at this point? Lmao

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Kief View Post
    Yes they absolutely can, just will take A LOT more tries for people to not screw up the mechanics. The numbers required are not unattainable for average players - but then again it depends on your definition of average. Personally I consider any guild that has NOT killed Jaina Mythic yet below average.
    Lolllll , in what fictional universe do you live where people who have killed mythic jaina are "average"? They don't even make up 5% of the population. Delusional.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    I said “if” so it’s speculation on my part, however the reason people are stating this is because of Nighthold I believe. You could still get ToVs CE when nighthold came out all the way until ToS, so people are operating under the assumption CoS will work the same.
    You could get Highmaul curve until the day Hellfire Citadel released (so basically whole BRF duration it was still up for grabs), however that didn't set any precedent with how Emerald Nightmare or Uldir were handled later on.

    I wish I could trust on past experiences giving us hints about what's to come but unfortunately Blizzard likes to change things around so I wouldn't put my bets onto it unless they officially stated it (and even then, sometimes they change their minds, like for example with artifact knowledge, they set the end date then postponed it - I mean ok at least that was to benefit of people so no harm done).

    Some hotfixes went up today however it seems nothing for mythic, just fixing the scaling for 10 man groups on normal / heroic (what a surprise, again they forgot to account for the fact small groups have less % of total number being dps players and have access to less dispels, externals and whatnot overall).

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    You could get Highmaul curve until the day Hellfire Citadel released (so basically whole BRF duration it was still up for grabs), however that didn't set any precedent with how Emerald Nightmare or Uldir were handled later on.

    I wish I could trust on past experiences giving us hints about what's to come but unfortunately Blizzard likes to change things around so I wouldn't put my bets onto it unless they officially stated it (and even then, sometimes they change their minds, like for example with artifact knowledge, they set the end date then postponed it - I mean ok at least that was to benefit of people so no harm done).

    Some hotfixes went up today however it seems nothing for mythic, just fixing the scaling for 10 man groups on normal / heroic (what a surprise, again they forgot to account for the fact small groups have less % of total number being dps players and have access to less dispels, externals and whatnot overall).
    Yeah I fully agree, the only thing that convinces me it’ll last past 8.2 is the fact that if it doesn’t only 60-80 guilds will have killed Uunat by the time 8.2 comes out. I really don’t think that’s what their goal for the raid is. I think 700 is fine, maybe a little low but 60-80 would be the lowest we’ve ever seen since CE was introduced. So I really don’t think they’d let that happen. This means either gigantic nerfs have to come sometime in June (which is not something I’d be happy with) or the raid lasts past 8.2.

  14. #94
    The "average" Mythic raiding guild won't even kill Jaina so is this a joke title?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    Yeah I fully agree, the only thing that convinces me it’ll last past 8.2 is the fact that if it doesn’t only 60-80 guilds will have killed Uunat by the time 8.2 comes out. I really don’t think that’s what their goal for the raid is. I think 700 is fine, maybe a little low but 60-80 would be the lowest we’ve ever seen since CE was introduced. So I really don’t think they’d let that happen. This means either gigantic nerfs have to come sometime in June (which is not something I’d be happy with) or the raid lasts past 8.2.
    CE for it won't go away until the next raid after Azshara. Just like CE for Helya didn't go away until Tomb released. 8.2 gear will heavily nerf the fight and get peopled their CEs, of course blizzard will probably toss in a few small blanket % nerfs as well over time.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by antelope591 View Post
    The only thing CoS does is continue Blizz's long line of terrible design decisions in BFA. Like seriously who does this raid benefit except for Method due to twitch views and forumgoers who follow the race but don't even play the game. The game is already bleeding subs and more guilds are dying each day (just look at the pitiful Jaina kill numbers). But apparently designing a raid for 20 guilds in the world seems like a good idea at this point? Lmao
    It's the perfect design choice. If you want an easy boss, try normal or heroic. If you want a hard boss, try mythic. The raid benefits all the guilds that have had BoD on farm for months and want something to progress on. If you want to kill the bosses in the first few weeks of a new raid, you should apply to Method.

  16. #96
    p1 and p2 are both very well tuned for mythic boss phases (although surely something could be done about 2 deaths being near required in p2). We are almost into p3, and from what i hear from friends in better guilds than mine, p3 is where the mechanics start to get ludicrous, so maybe a prospective nerf could be something to do with p3 torments and timings, but yeah p1 and 2 are honestly good phases and a health nerf wouldn't do them justice in my opinion.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Garfieldkart View Post
    p1 and p2 are both very well tuned for mythic boss phases (although surely something could be done about 2 deaths being near required in p2). We are almost into p3, and from what i hear from friends in better guilds than mine, p3 is where the mechanics start to get ludicrous, so maybe a prospective nerf could be something to do with p3 torments and timings, but yeah p1 and 2 are honestly good phases and a health nerf wouldn't do them justice in my opinion.
    A hp nerf is definitely not needed but a meaningful nerf could be moving p3 to start at 40% instead of 45%.

  18. #98
    Average mythic guild can't bring 10 warlocks like Method did. Average guilds have like 1-2 raiding capable alts compared to 5+ in top guilds so no it's not killable for normal guilds.

  19. #99
    A raid that is designed for "come back and get the achievement when you have gear from the next tier" is a raid that's going to see catastrophically low engagement numbers.

    Good luck with your metrics at your next performance review, raid designers!
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    Q: Why was the anti-vaxxer's 4 year old child crying? A: Midlife crisis.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    A raid that is designed for "come back and get the achievement when you have gear from the next tier" is a raid that's going to see catastrophically low engagement numbers.

    Good luck with your metrics at your next performance review, raid designers!
    So we have these two scenarios:

    New raid is piss easy, cleared by Method in 3 days
    "I remember back in TBC when K'J went unkilled for 2 months. Back then bosses used to be HARD. Make 'em like they used to again."

    New raid is not cleared in the first few days but still entirely doable but requires comp planning, good play and precise execution
    "I'm done with this game. Raid tuning and difficulty is insane even for world first guilds. My world rank 1500 guild will never kill this boss. Raiding is dead."

    And the funny thing is that the shit tier guilds still take 4-5 months to clear the raid no matter how easy/hard it is because by the time they get to the bosses they're already nerfed to the point where you don't even have to play that well, boss mechanics are forgiving and execution can be sloppy. Maybe CoS causes more outcry than ordinary raids because there are no free bosses leading up to the harder ones, so they have to either give up or kill the bosses before they're mega nerfed.

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