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  1. #1

    Is Mythic Crucible of Storms killable by the average mythic guild?

    Perhaps this might strike some as a really weird question, or perhaps I'm but a major cynic, but to me it does not seem as if Crucible of Storms is killable by the average mythic raidguild. Some people will probably accuse me of being someone who whines that content is too hard and desires nerfs, but that isn't really my take or angle on this.

    If a guild like Method requires 700+ wipes on a single boss that is roughly what 15-20 raids for a guild, which roughly translates into 2 months of progressraiding, then I can't see many raidguilds finding it worth it to invest their time into it. Especially not with 8.2 on the imminent horizon.

    A lot of people seem to live with this idealistic fantasy in their mind that any raid-boss can be overcome as long as people try often and hard enough. I do not share that idea, I believe that at a certain point you can make content so hard that it is no longer a steep hill to overcome but a flat out wall. No amount of wiping is going to help the average guild to kill a boss, if it is overtuned, not even if they had a year of progress raiding on it.

    But maybe I'm wrong about that? What do you think?

    Is every difficult raid-encounter beatable as long as people try often and hard enough, or is that a silly fantasy?
    We are often struck down easily. However no matter how often beaten, we can't forget the joy we felt during the dispute. The pleasure of stretching our willpower. The pleasure of trying out our own strength. The pleasure of seeing a manifestation of real comradely emotions among friends. The pleasure of seeing the world clearly split into camps of foes and friends. The pleasure of seeing an improvement in our own personality. by Sakae Osugi

  2. #2
    Now? No.

    Post-nerfs in the upcoming weeks? Yes.

  3. #3
    Yes they absolutely can, just will take A LOT more tries for people to not screw up the mechanics. The numbers required are not unattainable for average players - but then again it depends on your definition of average. Personally I consider any guild that has NOT killed Jaina Mythic yet below average.

  4. #4
    What is the point of this thread? Mythic Kil'jaeden took more than 800 pulls, closer to 900 and it was killed by almost 900 guilds. The encounter is going to be nerfed every week just like all mythic bosses.

  5. #5
    Why is there a mentality that everything should be killing by everyone? Was that the point of difficulties? Not saying the OP is suggesting otherwise but yea.

    Don't get me wrong there is a balancing act Blizzard forced upon themselves by having to have the hardest difficulty still achievable by a large enough group to make the effort worth it, unless of course they view it as some sort of dangling carrot that will keep the metrics up with people thinking they would someday be able to defeat a boss on the hardest difficulty.

    In other words, I fully expect multiple nerfs to difficult encounters to continue happening to keep that number balanced. Mythic, to me, is only "Mythic" for the first few weeks. Once the nerfs start rolling it, Mythic becomes a glorified Heroic, etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kief View Post
    Yes they absolutely can, just will take A LOT more tries for people to not screw up the mechanics. The numbers required are not unattainable for average players - but then again it depends on your definition of average. Personally I consider any guild that has NOT killed Jaina Mythic yet below average.
    I am extremely curious what your definition is of "average" player? Because the "average" player to me is the first person to jump down your throat if you try helping them out with their gear, rotation, etc commenting with the reply "piss off, I pay for my game, not you".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TwitchPrime View Post
    What is the point of this thread? Mythic Kil'jaeden took more than 800 pulls, closer to 900 and it was killed by almost 900 guilds. The encounter is going to be nerfed every week just like all mythic bosses.
    Right, but I believe the OP's question (and if not his, mine) is why did they feel the need to keep nerfing it to allow lower and lower end guilds get the kill? There's a difference between "this is the hardest difficulty, and it needed to be nerfed because the numbers simply weren't possible" and "this is the hardest difficulty that we will slowly nerf more and more".

    I mean, isn't the official Blizzard comment that they have an internal team that tests the encounters before even letting Method, et al see it on the PTR's? I surely hope Blizzard doesn't throw numbers at an encounter, let their internal team have a go and still ship it even if their internal team can't kill it. Hell, we'd be able to have a better discussion even if they openly admitted their internal team(s) were decked out in the highest Diablo items from the raid they are testing, or if they are decked out in the highest Diablo items of the previous tier, etc. I would love to know their testing setup.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post

    I mean, isn't the official Blizzard comment that they have an internal team that tests the encounters before even letting Method, et al see it on the PTR's? I surely hope Blizzard doesn't throw numbers at an encounter, let their internal team have a go and still ship it even if their internal team can't kill it. Hell, we'd be able to have a better discussion even if they openly admitted their internal team(s) were decked out in the highest Diablo items from the raid they are testing, or if they are decked out in the highest Diablo items of the previous tier, etc. I would love to know their testing setup.
    Blizzards testing team never "kills" most of the Mythic bosses. Why do you think most of the if not all end bosses need several hotfixes and huge nerfs while the top guilds are progressing on them.
    Last edited by TwitchPrime; 2019-05-03 at 09:08 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by TwitchPrime View Post
    Blizzards testing team never "kills" most of the Mythic bosses. Why do you think most of the if not all end bosses need several hotfixes and huge nerfs while the top guilds are progressing on them.
    Then they either need to hire a new team, hire Method (or some other guild typically in WF contention). How the hell can you say you tested something when you didn’t actually test it?

    Hell what is the purpose of this internal raid team Ion talks about to begin with then?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    Then they either need to hire a new team, hire Method (or some other guild typically in WF contention). How the hell can you say you tested something when you didn’t actually test it?
    It really isn't realistic to expect them to have internal team at the level of the best guilds out there, i'd expect the actual team to be at the level of world #50 guild or so.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Perhaps this might strike some as a really weird question, or perhaps I'm but a major cynic, but to me it does not seem as if Crucible of Storms is killable by the average mythic raidguild. Some people will probably accuse me of being someone who whines that content is too hard and desires nerfs, but that isn't really my take or angle on this.

    If a guild like Method requires 700+ wipes on a single boss that is roughly what 15-20 raids for a guild, which roughly translates into 2 months of progressraiding, then I can't see many raidguilds finding it worth it to invest their time into it. Especially not with 8.2 on the imminent horizon.

    A lot of people seem to live with this idealistic fantasy in their mind that any raid-boss can be overcome as long as people try often and hard enough. I do not share that idea, I believe that at a certain point you can make content so hard that it is no longer a steep hill to overcome but a flat out wall. No amount of wiping is going to help the average guild to kill a boss, if it is overtuned, not even if they had a year of progress raiding on it.

    But maybe I'm wrong about that? What do you think?

    Is every difficult raid-encounter beatable as long as people try often and hard enough, or is that a silly fantasy?
    This cutting edge will remain open until the end of the Nazjatar raid, so it'll be nerfed by overgearing it eventually, and the masses will obtain their cutting edges in time.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by TwitchPrime View Post
    What is the point of this thread? Mythic Kil'jaeden took more than 800 pulls, closer to 900 and it was killed by almost 900 guilds. The encounter is going to be nerfed every week just like all mythic bosses.
    Mythic KJ took 650 pulls, first 200 were just wipes at the end of P1 due to impossible mechanical overlaps that didn't get hotfixed until 4th of July weekend was over and devs were back in office.

    On Kj other guilds also still had gear to get, so later kills had higher ilvl than WF kill + there were multiple nerfs to the fight. Currently gear is capped out so no one is going to outgear WF kill, the nerfs will need to be really heavy.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    Hell what is the purpose of this internal raid team Ion talks about to begin with then?
    Didn't they fire them in the latest head count cut? I think Q/A is a part of the internal raid testing team, wasn't it?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherblood View Post
    Mythic KJ took 650 pulls, first 200 were just wipes at the end of P1 due to impossible mechanical overlaps that didn't get hotfixed until 4th of July weekend was over and devs were back in office.

    On Kj other guilds also still had gear to get, so later kills had higher ilvl than WF kill + there were multiple nerfs to the fight. Currently gear is capped out so no one is going to outgear WF kill, the nerfs will need to be really heavy.
    The no room to gear up angle is the biggest issue.

    This isn't a normal case where they wipe 500+ times because they are 10-15 item levels below what the raid drops or no member has the legendary ring yet (archimond).

    They are at the gear cap and it was still this bad.

    Most recent kill was Jaina which was > 300 pulls, but killed at 406 in a raid dropping 415.

    Now they are 418 in a raid dropping 415, able to extensively class stack due to 3 months if gear farming, and it was still their highest kill pull count ever.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    There's a difference between "this is the hardest difficulty, and it needed to be nerfed because the numbers simply weren't possible" and "this is the hardest difficulty that we will slowly nerf more and more".
    I think Crucible raises more a design question of Crucible itself rather than a broad discussion of difficulty.

    If both Restless Cabal and Uu'nat would be the (pen)ultimate boss of a major raid, i think their difficulty would be fine.
    However, considering that Crucible is merely intended as filler raid, that raises a lot of questions.

    First off, previously, encounters became naturally easier due guilds getting better gear, however any guild that has made reasonable progress into BoD will not find any major upgrades in there anymore to make the challenge presented by Crucible easier.

    Second, Restless cabal is in my opinion already above anything we've seen in BfA, barring Jaina,G'huun and Uu'nat, the claim by Ion that this boss would be on par with Mekkatorque is just not true in my opinion.
    If your healers screw up a single dispel on a Crushing doubt target, you'll wipe (we're talking about a ~2-4 second window here).
    Without at least a modicum of Shadow Priests and Warlocks, who can dispel themselves, even the increased Enrage timer is still a massive hurdle to overcome.
    Taking into account that the last 25% are the most difficult part of the encounter, simply zerging that boss is also not necessarily an option.

    Lastly, as filler raid, this difficulty is just misplaced.
    Even hardcore guilds a feel burnout, usually you counter this effect by basically having months between tiers, if you go back to 7 Days raiding now for Crucible, there's a good chance some of your raid members will be burned out by the time Azshara rolls around.

    Difficult content is fine, but it should happen within a big raid tier, not a "tier" intended as filler.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kief View Post
    Yes they absolutely can, just will take A LOT more tries for people to not screw up the mechanics. The numbers required are not unattainable for average players - but then again it depends on your definition of average. Personally I consider any guild that has NOT killed Jaina Mythic yet below average.
    That is a very skewed view on "average". https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/average


    Even if it means "average mythic guild".

    If we consider that 20 000 guilds killing 1/9 HEROIC bosses account for 70% of guilds raiding - we are looking at at least 30 000 raiding guilds....of which under 2% have killed Mythic Jaina. So...yeah...that are...I guess 524 "average" guilds and 28 476 "below average" guilds...or should we come out and call them "shit" guilds? And somewhere in those 524 "average" guilds, I guess there is at least one "sort of okay" guild...being the one who beat her first?


    https://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier23

    Quote Originally Posted by Nize View Post
    Now? No.

    Post-nerfs in the upcoming weeks? Yes.
    ...and that is all that needs to be said.

    People need to remember what is currently happening, next time they cry how Method or Limit or whoever clears a mythic raid in 2 weeks, demanding "harder" encounters - because that only means that everybody who comes after them will take endlessly longer.

    Is that good or bad...I don't have an opinion. Well..I do....when content at the highest difficulty can only be beaten by a tiny amount of guilds, for almost intangible rewards, eventually (IMHO) people will just give up in frustration and leave.

  15. #15
    the main difference from CoS and other raids is that, top 5 guilds usually clear the raids in ~10 average ilvl lower gear, than the top 500 guilds. they can do that because theyre more skilled and got plenty of alts to class stack.
    in CoS there is no way for the top 500 guilds to get more ilvl, than pieces and method had when they killed uu'nat.
    so the top 500 guilds have two choices. they can start gearing up 15 locks/shams and wait for nerfs.
    or wait for nerfs and then wait even for more nerfs.

    instead of waiting for nerfs. i prefer to be able to "overgear" raids, to outweight the lack skill and perfect class setup.

    otherwise gear has become irrelevant, all that matters is, when do blizz press the big red nerf button.
    Last edited by mojusk; 2019-05-03 at 10:19 PM.

  16. #16
    Just like all other raids once the top 10-20 guilds kill it, blizz will start nerfing.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    Then they either need to hire a new team, hire Method (or some other guild typically in WF contention). How the hell can you say you tested something when you didn’t actually test it?

    Hell what is the purpose of this internal raid team Ion talks about to begin with then?
    Lol why would they hire method or any other guild when they show up and do the work for free upon raid release? They already get there so fast that they basically are the internal test teams round 2

  18. #18
    They overtune things purposely for world first, then nerf it down during and after the race. Whether that's acceptable or not is another story, but it's true they can't buff it back up if they undershoot the mark, and then people complain about it being another EN

    In a sense WF guilds are PTR testing the raid on live in an overtuned version

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by MrExcelion View Post
    They overtune things purposely for world first, then nerf it down during and after the race. Whether that's acceptable or not is another story, but it's true they can't buff it back up if they undershoot the mark, and then people complain about it being another EN

    In a sense WF guilds are PTR testing the raid on live in an overtuned version
    or theres 5 difficulties nowadays, lfr, normal, heroic, mythic and "next-to-impossible",

  20. #20
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    Not only "average mythic guild" has no chance at clearing the place, even "average cutting edge guild" has no point in going there until major nerfs happen. Doesn't matter if it's direct changes, 8.2 new Heart of Azerite powers or better raid gear shortly afterwards. And that's Top 500 or so, while CE itself extend to ~1000.

    I assume that Cabal enrage nerf is not the total extent of changes this boss will get - otherwise, even that could be a wall to the typical 9/9M guild who cannot outgear it until 8.2 and can't stack the raid to the point most kills did. Uu'nat isn't even worth thinking about, he will need crushing nerfs to even approach without 8.2 items.

    Honestly, I find this raid to be a complete failure for "average mythic guild". The gear it offers is bizarre and not really that great, the difficulty is absurdly high, the stacking is insane and we're getting a new tier in couple months that will obsolete the place anyway. If there aren't significant nerfs within few weeks, it will be completely useless.

    ToV was much better when compared to that. Helya might have been too hard for "average mythic guild", but Odyn and Guarm were both within range. And we still kept getting upgrades to our artifact and legendaries. Compared to that, CoS is just bullshit.

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