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  1. #101
    Old God Low Hanging Fruit's Avatar
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    Who cares who shot first. Next expansion we will all be friends when we take on the next thing that is rising to destroy the world while we fight PW7 (pointless war 7).

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Malikath View Post
    alliance players pick-up a message from the remnants of a crashed and assaulted by gilbin and lobstermen forsaken shipcrew.
    this is delivered to the gilnean forces in dalaran, since azsuna is first chronologically in the order of zones i'd posit this is where genn and the alliance leadership learn of sylvanas' plan to deal with helya.
    Sorry but I did that quest first on the Horde, therefore Alliance couldnt get it.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Malikath View Post
    source: your ass.
    we very clearly engage azsuna first with the involvement of khadgar and the illidari, and engage suramar last.
    Btw it is easy to see what the canon chronological order is; Azsuna then go clockwise. Almost all the profession questlines follow that order.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Btw it is easy to see what the canon chronological order is; Azsuna then go clockwise. Almost all the profession questlines follow that order.
    Profession questlines are canon now?

    You know, there is a reason first three letters of "assumption" is A S S.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Source: Blizzard scraping the zone order doing the beta and giving us the choice to start with any zone we want to instead.
    right, so a gameplay decision is relevant to lore? how?
    yeah, i though so as irrelevant as every other gameplay change they've made since WoD.


    next time you try "gameplay=lore" I'm just gonna laugh and make vivic's sword jokes.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Profession questlines are canon now?

    You know, there is a reason first three letters of "assumption" is A S S.
    I am presenting information from the game time and again and you are just ignoring it. Feel free to call what I do assumption when you have failed to present any evidence.

    Also still waiting for you to explain how genocide is reasonable escalation to an attack on an enemy military target.

  7. #107
    Mechagnome saintminya's Avatar
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    Wasn't Stormheim originally meant to canonically come first? The intention of zone order did change, but I still think its safe to say that it is the most fitting start point. I agree that Azsuna probably happened soon after.

    More on topic: Yes, Alliance aggression confirmed. That doesn't mean that the Horde wasn't also aggressive, with the notable exception of Silithus where the goblin miners were minding their business until SI:7 showed up. So no, the Alliance are not lawful good or any of that nonsense.

    Had Silithus not happened, would Sylvanas have still launched a full-on war? Absolutely. Conversely, had Genn not thwarted Sylv's activities in Stormheim, would Sylvanas have at all been inclined to go to war? Perhaps not.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I am presenting information from the game time and again and you are just ignoring it. Feel free to call what I do assumption when you have failed to present any evidence.

    Also still waiting for you to explain how genocide is reasonable escalation to an attack on an enemy military target.
    But still, the Alliance does know that Sylvanas is sailing to stormheim but they don't know what she is up to. So unless setting sail is enough to attack someone I say that the Alliance is still the aggressor and still wrong here. Which is also the same thing Anduin says.

    And between the attack in Stormheim and Sylvanas ordering to torch the tree a lot of stuff happens. Torching the tree was not the first option, you know?
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    Wasn't Stormheim originally meant to canonically come first? The intention of zone order did change, but I still think its safe to say that it is the most fitting start point. I agree that Azsuna probably happened soon after.

    More on topic: Yes, Alliance aggression confirmed. That doesn't mean that the Horde wasn't also aggressive, with the notable exception of Silithus where the goblin miners were minding their business until SI:7 showed up. So no, the Alliance are not lawful good or any of that nonsense.

    Had Silithus not happened, would Sylvanas have still launched a full-on war? Absolutely. Conversely, had Genn not thwarted Sylv's activities in Stormheim, would Sylvanas have at all been inclined to go to war? Perhaps not.
    If Stormheim does happen first, the reaction of both the Alliance and the Horde to the revelation from that journal is utterly pointless. So Stormheim has to happen AFTER Azsuna.
    We have two reasons to believe Azsuna comes first. First, the profession quests almost all (except for LW) follow the Azsuna then clockwise order. Second, Azsuna offers an introductory experience and the most reasonable followup to the Broken Shore; it is the only zone to have you engage the Legion extensively, it keeps referencing your artifact and is the only active warfront; Val'sharah and Highmountain are completely different as missions when it comes to a sense of urgency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    But still, the Alliance does know that Sylvanas is sailing to stormheim but they don't know what she is up to. So unless setting sail is enough to attack someone I say that the Alliance is still the aggressor and still wrong here. Which is also the same thing Anduin says.

    And between the attack in Stormheim and Sylvanas ordering to torch the tree a lot of stuff happens. Torching the tree was not the first option, you know?
    True, the first option was to kill Malfurion and bring his severed head to Darnassus to subdue the population there, only to maintain them in a concentration camp so as to try to force the Alliance's hand by keeping an entire city of civilians hostage. Which was still an option for Sylvanas btw, it would just have been harder to do with Malfurion loose; he was only loose because she didn't make sure Saurfang would finish the job.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Btw it is easy to see what the canon chronological order is; Azsuna then go clockwise. Almost all the profession questlines follow that order.
    What exactly are the ties between profession questlines and the rest of the quests that gives them any worth as the gauge of the chronology of events?


    Quote Originally Posted by Malikath View Post
    right, so a gameplay decision is relevant to lore? how?
    yeah, i though so as irrelevant as every other gameplay change they've made since WoD.

    next time you try "gameplay=lore" I'm just gonna laugh and make vivic's sword jokes.
    If gameplay decisions like these are irrelevant to the lore, how do you know the lore order was the same as leveling order prior to the change in the first place? Oh, right, you don't know and you're just making shit up. Even that aside, you still have no actual argument to prove that the lore order is what it is. I wonder why.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Oh look, another "I'm desperate to paint Alliance as the villains" thread. Sorry, that's not what Blizz is writing whether anyone here likes it or not.
    So, what part of his statement was incorrect? Seems to me he has all the facts and the sequence of events correct.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I am presenting information from the game time and again and you are just ignoring it. Feel free to call what I do assumption when you have failed to present any evidence.

    Also still waiting for you to explain how genocide is reasonable escalation to an attack on an enemy military target.
    that's all the children do, they act right and strut around like they've made a valid point.
    the game very clearly places azsuna as first in chronological order with the involvement of the forces already involved in the failed assault.
    the reason genn doesn't know whats going on in stormheim is that the edgy forsaken letter is as vague as sylvanas is incompetent and evil.

    and still they ignore ashran, where the horde broke the peace treaty, AGAIN.
    without provocation, AGAIN.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    True, the first option was to kill Malfurion and bring his severed head to Darnassus to subdue the population there, only to maintain them in a concentration camp so as to try to force the Alliance's hand by keeping an entire city of civilians hostage. Which was still an option for Sylvanas btw, it would just have been harder to do with Malfurion loose; he was only loose because she didn't make sure Saurfang would finish the job.
    But you agree that Genn doesn't know what is Sylvanas up to when he attacks her at the beginning of Stormheim?

    Oh and killing a Leader is a valid miliatry target. Just like Genn tried in Stormheim.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Also still waiting for you to explain how genocide is reasonable escalation to an attack on an enemy military target.
    Look at you using big word. At least use the right one, those were Night Elves. That was not genocide, it was pesticide.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    So, what part of his statement was incorrect?.
    the ASHRAN CAME FIRST part, you know in another timeline's past.
    >tfw blizzard gets shown up by avengers: endgame

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    But you agree that Genn doesn't know what is Sylvanas up to when he attacks her at the beginning of Stormheim?

    Oh and killing a Leader is a valid miliatry target. Just like Genn tried in Stormheim.
    oh yeah, killing an enemy leader is a viable stratagy, and the horde began the war with ashran.
    just like they did in vanilla, wrath, and Mop.

    also, since it seems that sylvanus might've ordered the wrathgate it makes both putress' "fur da forskin" speech and varimathras' death quote make sense as he was warn9ing us about sylvanas and putress was following orders.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Malikath View Post
    that's all the children do, they act right and strut around like they've made a valid point.
    the game very clearly places azsuna as first in chronological order with the involvement of the forces already involved in the failed assault.
    the reason genn doesn't know whats going on in stormheim is that the edgy forsaken letter is as vague as sylvanas is incompetent and evil.
    Which is why you provide nothing of worth that'd indicate why it's so clear. Effectively contradicting this notion in the process.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malikath View Post
    and still they ignore ashran, where the horde broke the peace treaty, AGAIN.
    without provocation, AGAIN.
    Ashran is ignored because the factions ignored it. As shown in Legion. They cooperated at the start despite of it, painting a clear picture how the factions already buried that hatched since WoD. And what do you mean the Horde broke the peace treaty AGAIN without provocation AGAIN? The conflict before Ashran was started by Alliance.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Malikath View Post
    oh yeah, killing an enemy leader is a viable stratagy, and the horde began the war with ashran.
    just like they did in vanilla, wrath, and Mop.
    So what? At the beginning of Legion there was a truce in place and a joint military operation. You don't do that with your enemies. And Legion happens after Ashran.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The conflict before Ashran was started by Alliance.
    lol, source? or are you just gonna try and pass a lie like that off?
    the game itself says horde began the war in ashran on both sides over the artifact that was eventually cut along with everything else in that expac.

    also doesn't that assumption of forgiveness apply all the way back to wrath with the alliance again working with the horde as of the argent tourny yet you yourself have claimed that the horde were innocent of the fact they started the war in cata? you're a lying hypocrite and that's all you've ever been or ever will be.

    go suck on vivic's silver and gold "spear".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    You don't do that with your enemies.
    actually, yes, that is what you do.
    or have you never read a single history book ever? actually that would explain alot about you.
    pro-tip: read greek history, cause the greek city-states would forge and break alliances on the turning of the hour.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2019-05-06 at 02:02 AM. Reason: Received Infraction

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Malikath View Post
    actually, yes, that is what you do.
    or have you never read a single history book ever? actually that would explain alot about you.
    That you're at open war with? Have YOU ever read a history book?
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    But you agree that Genn doesn't know what is Sylvanas up to when he attacks her at the beginning of Stormheim?

    Oh and killing a Leader is a valid miliatry target. Just like Genn tried in Stormheim.
    The letter was vague since most of it was illegible (I have quoted the relevant item and quests above). It does clearly show that Sylvanas is seeking power in Stormheim but not what or how.

    And yes, Malfurion is a legitimate target. The issue is not killing Malfurion but keeping the Night Elf civilians hostage to compel compliance by the Alliance.

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