Alliance aggressors confirmed

[Tripzzz]

because I'm arguing his actions were more about his already established hatred that he was BARELY holding in check almost entirely because of Varian. You're saying that it was because genn felt betrayed... no Genn felt VINDICATED because the horde backed out. He did everything EXCEPT shout "Told you!" when he saw how things played out. I'm not going to bother arguing whether or not Genn felt betrayed because I don't think Genn was ever under any impression he could trust the horde to begin with.




Now that conversation... if you remember how the conversation went continues:

Rogers: I highly suspect an opportunity will present itself
Genn Greymane says: It had better.
Genn Greymane says: I am not in the habit of tracking prey unless I intend on killing it.

No letting the scene play out we fast forward to the Sky Ship Rogers and Genn are manning opens up on the forsaken fleet from beyond heavy cloud cover with no explanation on why beyond they were within range....

It seems that the tone Rogers used in the conversation about her 'suspicion' and Genn's "It had better" imply they were already planning to engage regardless.

The lack of information about the initial engagement might be a plothole where Genn is somehow aware of Sylvanas planning something something evil something something kill everything (unlikely since he seems surprised about that possibility MUCH LATER when the story gets through Helheim) But given that they didn't even confirm that Sylvanas' flagship was present until after the hostilities commenced it seems that they didn't even BOTHER with their official mission in ANY capacity beyond confirming it might very well be a horde fleet in their crosshairs.

edit:

also the lines for genn and rogers I pulled from rewatching the the event in game, on youtube, and from the link you provided with the quest details.

You cherry picked what you wanted to prove your position but much like the fabled cat you stopped when it died and left off the ending of the tale.

Genn's already established hatred has been with him since cata. Yet he only attacked the Slyvanus after the perceived betrayal at the Broken Shore. I wonder why.... He might have never trusted the Horde but he trusted Varian's decision. That he had doubt about Slyvanus changes nothing.

Yes, they were planning to attack from the beginning because they had no reason to trust known betrayers(in their PoV) to be helpful to their goals. I never denied that. The quest makes it very clear Genn wanted to attack no matter what. That specific line i quoted was to prove that they were not told "Do not engage". I linked the whole quest for anyone to read it. I didn't cherrypick shit. It's linked right there for anyone to read it. You made the claim they were told "not to engage". I simply used to relevant quote to prove you wrong.

Genn was hunting Slyvanus(and the Horde) seeking revenge(for Varian, but also for Gilneas and his son) towards the end of the questline he eventually learns what her plans are. But prior to learning any of that, he was justified seeking retribution against a perceived betrayer that caused the death of his friend.

[FelPlague]

because I'm arguing his actions were more about his already established hatred that he was BARELY holding in check almost entirely because of Varian. You're saying that it was because genn felt betrayed... no Genn felt VINDICATED because the horde backed out. He did everything EXCEPT shout "Told you!" when he saw how things played out. I'm not going to bother arguing whether or not Genn felt betrayed because I don't think Genn was ever under any impression he could trust the horde to begin with.




Now that conversation... if you remember how the conversation went continues:

Rogers: I highly suspect an opportunity will present itself
Genn Greymane says: It had better.
Genn Greymane says: I am not in the habit of tracking prey unless I intend on killing it.

No letting the scene play out we fast forward to the Sky Ship Rogers and Genn are manning opens up on the forsaken fleet from beyond heavy cloud cover with no explanation on why beyond they were within range....

It seems that the tone Rogers used in the conversation about her 'suspicion' and Genn's "It had better" imply they were already planning to engage regardless.

The lack of information about the initial engagement might be a plothole where Genn is somehow aware of Sylvanas planning something something evil something something kill everything (unlikely since he seems surprised about that possibility MUCH LATER when the story gets through Helheim) But given that they didn't even confirm that Sylvanas' flagship was present until after the hostilities commenced it seems that they didn't even BOTHER with their official mission in ANY capacity beyond confirming it might very well be a horde fleet in their crosshairs.

edit:

also the lines for genn and rogers I pulled from rewatching the the event in game, on youtube, and from the link you provided with the quest details.

You cherry picked what you wanted to prove your position but much like the fabled cat you stopped when it died and left off the ending of the tale.

While i disagree with pretty much everything rogers has done
you seem to forget the context sylvanas covered gilneas in blight
murdered his son
and tortured his people, destroyed his land, and his kingdom, leaving it in ruins, all for nothing, the forsaken did not even take the lands, they simply left them a horrid inhabitable place of blight and destruction.

the alliance knew she was there for some reaosn that they did not like, and so he wished to avenge liam, by ruining her plans.

also genn blames varians deaht on sylvanas, he was ordered to get her to deal with the air units, and instead she and her people fled, giving the alliance no warning or support leaving them for dead.

[mickybrighteyes]

Genn's already established hatred has been with him since cata. Yet he only attacked the Slyvanus after the perceived betrayal at the Broken Shore. I wonder why....

Varian died. the only figure among the alliance command he would listen to.... You seem to want to argue that Varian's death is a direct betrayal to Genn. I disagree, I believe Varian was the only leader who was able to really reign him in and convince him to stand in line. The only authority who kept people in line is gone and suddenly everyone's doing what they want? Naw, has to be because of reacting to betrayal.

IMO you're holding too much weight in this betrayal angle when you're not establishing that Genn even trusted the so-called betrayers as you view it. He trusted Varian... by your own argument. If the betrayal was the heart of the matter he'd have pursued other parties as well and not simply Sylvanas alone... who was responsible for the destruction of his homeland and the death of his son (in his eyes). You mention that he called out "for Varian!" as reasoning to back your position... but forget that when listing off grievances in the western culture... we lead with the lesser grievances and build up into the more important ones (i.e. "For Gilneas! FOR MY SON!!!!!")

Yes, they were planning to attack from the beginning because they had no reason to trust known betrayers(in their PoV) to be helpful to their goals. I never denied that. The quest makes it very clear Genn wanted to attack no matter what. That specific line i quoted was to prove that they were not told "Do not engage". I linked the whole quest for anyone to read it. I didn't cherrypick shit. It's linked right there for anyone to read it. You made the claim they were told "not to engage". I simply used to relevant quote to prove you wrong.

because it seems you're arguing that that WEREN'T disregarding orders while linking material basically showcasing that they were in fact disregarding their stated orders.

Genn was hunting Slyvanus(and the Horde) seeking revenge(for Varian, but also for Gilneas and his son) towards the end of the questline he eventually learns what her plans are. But prior to learning any of that, he was justified seeking retribution against a perceived betrayer that caused the death of his friend.

Genn and Rogers were doing what they did because they had very deep-seated grudges against the horde in general. Gilneas and South Shore respectively. It just so happened that Broken Shore was a thing and the horde backed out.... thing is since they continued a portion of the storyline concerning the botched intelligence and theoretically had a revelation that the bad intel, provided by SI:7 was the reason for the botched encounter and even Detheroc was the ultimate culprit.... but Genn and Rogers aren't at all acknowledging this portion... it really comes across as though this 'betrayal' is not even the main reason for their actions but an additional excuse that makes others more agreeable to their clear violation of orders.

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While i disagree with pretty much everything rogers has done
you seem to forget the context sylvanas covered gilneas in blight
murdered his son
and tortured his people, destroyed his land, and his kingdom, leaving it in ruins, all for nothing, the forsaken did not even take the lands, they simply left them a horrid inhabitable place of blight and destruction.

the alliance knew she was there for some reaosn that they did not like, and so he wished to avenge liam, by ruining her plans.

The context of Gilneas doesn't matter in Stormheim since we're in an entirely different conflict.

The alliance only knew a forsaken fleet was on the move. PERIOD. Genn and Rogers had one job. Figure out what the hell was up. Instead they get in range and open fire... fail to kill their target.... go in and finally look at what they shot up (because they got fucked in retaliation because of surprise air support and not a surprise at all.... blight) and THEN learn Sylvanas was there, emphasis on was. Their main Transit? lost. Support units, decimated. 7th Legion forces coming back as mindless undead abominations somehow due to blight exposure.

Now, again, I am arguing that this whole ordeal came about because the two people in charge had their hatreds and wanted an excuse to get even... NOT because of apparent betrayal at Broken Shore. If it was basically ANY other alliance leadership at all, I might say differently. But it's Genn and Rogers.

[Tripzzz]

Varian died. the only figure among the alliance command he would listen to.... You seem to want to argue that Varian's death is a direct betrayal to Genn. I disagree, I believe Varian was the only leader who was able to really reign him in and convince him to stand in line. The only authority who kept people in line is gone and suddenly everyone's doing what they want? Naw, has to be because of reacting to betrayal.

IMO you're holding too much weight in this betrayal angle when you're not establishing that Genn even trusted the so-called betrayers as you view it. He trusted Varian... by your own argument. If the betrayal was the heart of the matter he'd have pursued other parties as well and not simply Sylvanas alone... who was responsible for the destruction of his homeland and the death of his son (in his eyes). You mention that he called out "for Varian!" as reasoning to back your position... but forget that when listing off grievances in the western culture... we lead with the lesser grievances and build up into the more important ones (i.e. "For Gilneas! FOR MY SON!!!!!")

because it seems you're arguing that that WEREN'T disregarding orders while linking material basically showcasing that they were in fact disregarding their stated orders.



Genn and Rogers were doing what they did because they had very deep-seated grudges against the horde in general. Gilneas and South Shore respectively. It just so happened that Broken Shore was a thing and the horde backed out.... thing is since they continued a portion of the storyline concerning the botched intelligence and theoretically had a revelation that the bad intel, provided by SI:7 was the reason for the botched encounter and even Detheroc was the ultimate culprit.... but Genn and Rogers aren't at all acknowledging this portion... it really comes across as though this 'betrayal' is not even the main reason for their actions but an additional excuse that makes others more agreeable to their clear violation of orders.

Varian was the High King of the Alliance. Genn is a member of the Alliance. Blizzard has stated the Alliance perceived the events of the Broken Shore as betrayal. Genn listed Varian as one of his reason for attacking. It's not rocket surgery. Arguing how real life "western culture" expresses grievances to explain why Genn said what he said is quite stupid. He clearly wants revenge for Varian's death. No attempt at damage control or downplaying will change that.

Nope. The order in the questline is vague. There is no distinction between which "situation" justifies attacking. Thus Genn is free to choose at his discretion. Rogers cleary states what the orders were.

It doesn't matter if SI:7 botched the intelligence. The fact is the Horde fell for the trap just all the same. They were unable to figure out it was a trap and so SI:7 are not the only ones to blame. Why didn't the Horde figure it out either?

[FelPlague]

The context of Gilneas doesn't matter in Stormheim since we're in an entirely different conflict.

The alliance only knew a forsaken fleet was on the move. PERIOD. Genn and Rogers had one job. Figure out what the hell was up. Instead they get in range and open fire... fail to kill their target.... go in and finally look at what they shot up (because they got fucked in retaliation because of surprise air support and not a surprise at all.... blight) and THEN learn Sylvanas was there, emphasis on was. Their main Transit? lost. Support units, decimated. 7th Legion forces coming back as mindless undead abominations somehow due to blight exposure.

Now, again, I am arguing that this whole ordeal came about because the two people in charge had their hatreds and wanted an excuse to get even... NOT because of apparent betrayal at Broken Shore. If it was basically ANY other alliance leadership at all, I might say differently. But it's Genn and Rogers.

1. correct, but im giving reasons as to why he did not wish for her to live
2. no they knew she was there to gather some power, some object that was sylvanas's personal mission to collect.
3. they knew she was there, also what does the entire last sentence of your post mean? "Their main Transit? lost. Support units, decimated. 7th Legion forces coming back as mindless undead abominations somehow due to blight exposure." are you trying to push some ego or something?

4. yes, they wanted to avenge manythings, one of them the apparent betrayal at the broken shore THE VERY FIRST THING HE SAID was "FOR VARIAN!" right after saying "I will have MY VENGEANCE!"

so no, stop pretending the attack had nothing to do with the hordes apparent betrayal at the broken shore.

[mickybrighteyes]

2. no they knew she was there to gather some power, some object that was sylvanas's personal mission to collect.

They knew a forsaken fleet was on the move. As to why and who was among the fleet... that seems to not be known until the player character is flying ship to ship and finally gets some extra information.

3. they knew she was there, also what does the entire last sentence of your post mean? "Their main Transit? lost. Support units, decimated. 7th Legion forces coming back as mindless undead abominations somehow due to blight exposure." are you trying to push some ego or something?

Just adding icing to the shit cake. If you're playing an alliance character you ride in on that sky ship.... the one that winds up crashed and shattered near the storm drake cave. The 'volatile' npcs are still a thing. Those legion units combing the shores that Genn up and leaves that turn into targets for the clean up crew when the other faction is trying to round up and figure out what the fuck happened? I'm pointing out the fallout from that pointless attack since the cove of Nashal and the nearby area is only the way it is because of a certain party taking the initiative to attack first.

4. yes, they wanted to avenge manythings, one of them the apparent betrayal at the broken shore THE VERY FIRST THING HE SAID was "FOR VARIAN!" right after saying "I will have MY VENGEANCE!"

As I said before, the first item in the least is typically the item we place the least emphasis on. You start small and escalate bigger as your final point should be the item that is the main motivator.

so no, stop pretending the attack had nothing to do with the hordes apparent betrayal at the broken shore.

again... I'm not saying that ISN'T a reason. I'm saying you're high if you think Genn Greymane and Sky Admiral Rogers main reason for acting is Broken Shore.

[FelPlague]

They knew a forsaken fleet was on the move. As to why and who was among the fleet... that seems to not be known until the player character is flying ship to ship and finally gets some extra information.

Just adding icing to the shit cake. If you're playing an alliance character you ride in on that sky ship.... the one that winds up crashed and shattered near the storm drake cave. The 'volatile' npcs are still a thing. Those legion units combing the shores that Genn up and leaves that turn into targets for the clean up crew when the other faction is trying to round up and figure out what the fuck happened? I'm pointing out the fallout from that pointless attack since the cove of Nashal and the nearby area is only the way it is because of a certain party taking the initiative to attack first.

As I said before, the first item in the least is typically the item we place the least emphasis on. You start small and escalate bigger as your final point should be the item that is the main motivator.

again... I'm not saying that ISN'T a reason. I'm saying you're high if you think Genn Greymane and Sky Admiral Rogers main reason for acting is Broken Shore.

1. https://www.wowhead.com/quest=40794/...ueens-reprisal no they knew sylvanas was on a mission to collect something.
2. literally your just yelling nonsense into the abyss.
3. "first is the item we place the least on" except it was the first thing he though of... hmmm maybe your just bad, usually the last thing is the thing we place the least on
i dont think you know, but genn did not go in prepare a speech for sylvanas

yes, its their main reason, but its one of HUNDREDS it was fresh, it was THEIR KING

[mickybrighteyes]

Genn listed Varian as one of his reason for attacking. It's not rocket surgery. Arguing how real life "western culture" expresses grievances to explain why Genn said what he said is quite stupid. He clearly wants revenge for Varian's death. No attempt at damage control or downplaying will change that.

I'm saying he listed other things as well... with far more emphasis and intensity as well as later in his statement. It indicates a greater importance of the reasons provided. I also point out it's a western thing since I don't know about other nations teaching of debate... but I learned you don't lead with your best as it lessens the impact overall. So I see something that might read like "for this. AND this. AND THIS".... punctuated by increasingly violent actions taken as teh lines are delivered? that last bit seems like it's FAR more important than the rest of the items

Nope. The order in the questline is vague. There is no distinction between which "situation" justifies attacking. Thus Genn is free to choose at his discretion. Rogers cleary states what the orders were.

It's not vague. it's not present. but what we do see is Genn and Rogers talking about how they are planning to carry out the mission like Danny Ocean is planning to observe some fine art in a Gala and cut away to shooting first. conducting a search for a target they hope is there... fail to find and run around the countryside thinking the only thing is that the target is there and no idea what is the plan they're acting on.

It doesn't matter if SI:7 botched the intelligence. The fact is the Horde fell for the trap just all the same. They were unable to figure out it was a trap and so SI:7 are not the only ones to blame. Why didn't the Horde figure it out either?

No see it DOES matter cause if the betrayal was the important thing, then retribution would be directed at other parties as well once that became known.

Shaw would get some of Genn's ire until he was brought around to the idea of Detheroc impersonating him and then back on track for legion. Genn stops caring once he broke the Sylvanas' lamp in an attempt to take her future from her. This is another reason why I think the intent behind the attack was more about vengeance for past encounters personal to those characters more so than betrayal.

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1. https://www.wowhead.com/quest=40794/...ueens-reprisal no they knew sylvanas was on a mission to collect something.

side quest, canon orientation unclear.
does not actually prove the group of ships caught off teh coast of stormheim are the only ships or that Sylvanas is among them. In fact that quest also indicated there are multiple fleets coordinating between one another.

3. "first is the item we place the least on" except it was the first thing he though of... hmmm maybe your just bad, usually the last thing is the thing we place the least on
i dont think you know, but genn did not go in prepare a speech for sylvanas

firstly:


secondly:
Yes Varian's death is the most recent. That might be why it was first.

lastly: you have really only managed an attempt to insult me rather than disprove my statement. Genn wasn't pleading with Sylvanas, he was accusing her and placing blame on her for everything that had gone wrong in his life. His friend, his land, his legacy all down the drain... and what did he try and take in return? Not her life, not the horde leadership.... her legacy. That became his target.

[Tripzzz]

I'm saying he listed other things as well... with far more emphasis and intensity as well as later in his statement. It indicates a greater importance of the reasons provided. I also point out it's a western thing since I don't know about other nations teaching of debate... but I learned you don't lead with your best as it lessens the impact overall. So I see something that might read like "for this. AND this. AND THIS".... punctuated by increasingly violent actions taken as teh lines are delivered? that last bit seems like it's FAR more important than the rest of the items
It's not vague. it's not present. but what we do see is Genn and Rogers talking about how they are planning to carry out the mission like Danny Ocean is planning to observe some fine art in a Gala and cut away to shooting first. conducting a search for a target they hope is there... fail to find and run around the countryside thinking the only thing is that the target is there and no idea what is the plan they're acting on.


No see it DOES matter cause if the betrayal was the important thing, then retribution would be directed at other parties as well once that became known.

Shaw would get some of Genn's ire until he was brought around to the idea of Detheroc impersonating him and then back on track for legion. Genn stops caring once he broke the Sylvanas' lamp in an attempt to take her future from her. This is another reason why I think the intent behind the attack was more about vengeance for past encounters personal to those characters more so than betrayal.

The fact that he lists Varian along with Gilneas and his son shows you how much he wanted revenge. He wouldn't place them anywhere near eachother if he didn't feel Varian's death wasn't worthy of vengeance.


Not present = vague...

[qwerty123456]

In game its clear the Horde attacked first killing the spies looking in on what the Horde were doing which is why the Alliance player needs to come in.

[SirKickBan]

Ashran is the exact opposite of how BFA's start was made.

I'm not sure Ashran is the best example to use when the alliance was stated to be looking for something to use against the horde in the first place.

A minor point, but I don't think that's quite correct. Even the Warspear commander's dialogue indicates the Alliance was planning on using whatever they found against the Iron Horde, and he's concerned they'll attack their Horde after they're done with the Iron Horde.

Source.

[Cobman]

Ill get over Taurajo when you get over Theramore, it was completely justified. And im not even sure what you are arguing for with Garrosh? It's all thralls fault. Garrosh himself said he was not ready and still made him Warchief.

"Horde left them on the broken shore therefore its okay to attack" Okay lmao. They didn't even try to talk to each other afterwards. You know, it's not like they shared a city or anything... Greymane attacked out of petty vengeance from a war that had been resolved long ago and instigated by someone who is now dead. They were literally facing space satan and he couldn't put aside his petty ambitions for the good of Azeroth

Dude, you brought theramore, taurajo, jaina and everything else, pls read your own posts.

I dont care about Theramore, i never said i did, you see jainas face and you start to conclude shit in your mind, well its wrong, not everything in life is what it seems.

And to finish with you, yeah Greymane is prideful and attacking them like that in stormheim was reckless but understandable from alliance pc pov. In mop Alliance left horde untouched like fools, wod was pretty much without conflict and in legion, first thing what horde does is leaving alliance so yeah its understandable why genn is mad. Ofc they can talk but they didnt, this is not real life, it a story that authors tell and in that story its like that, get over it.