Alliance aggressors confirmed

[Mehrunes]

It doesn't matter if we interpret the Alliance as aggressors. Blizzard intends for the Horde to be the aggressors and for the Alliance to be lawful good and morally right.

Hell, Blizzard treats the Horde as aggressors even in the previous faction war even though they confirmed in Chronicle v3 that Alliance declared that war.

The point is more that the Alliance "started" a regional scuffle at best, while the Horde started the full-scale war with the invasion of NE lands, and then escalated the conflict beyond any reasonable proportions with the Burning.

"They started it so everything we do is justified!" is a silly position to take, and a quite impractical one as well. The Alliance isn't blameless, much as the writers are indeed trying to convince us, but that doesn't mean the Horde didndunuffin. We are definitely responsible for the current apocalyptic state of the war, or what would be an apocalyptic state if this were not an MMO that needs to keep running and thus won't let something as insignificant as a world war have actual consequences.

The Horde isn't obligated to react in any particular way to Alliance aggression, let alone react with kid gloves on. If the Alliance doesn't want to get its teeth kicked in during Horde's reaction, the onus is on them to give the Horde nothing to react to. Disproportionate response is a perfectly valid doctrine.

On top of that, prior to this "regional scuffle" there was this little event where Alliance forces under the orders of their High King attacked Forsaken fleet with Warchief of the Horde on board...

[Wewlad]

Some guy cuts my arm so I murder his mother.

Yeah, he started it first but I escalated it beyond any reasonable proportion.

That's what the Horde did.

[Mehrunes]

Ehm Before the Storms makes it clear that the Explorer's League made it to Silithus first, most of them were murdered by Gallywix's people except for Sapphronetta who was kidnapped. Alliance as the aggressor is still canon of course because of the events of Stormheim, though at that point everyone was acting under the false information fed to the Alliance by Detheroc.

How could they make it to Silithus first when Explorer's League is sent there by Anduin halfway through the book? With the kidnapping of Sapphronetta happening even later? With Goblins already mining in Silithus before the book even starts?

And Genn wasn't acting under anything else other than his rage boner. Even if he was influenced by Detheroc, the Alliance had enough information available to them already during the Broken Shore itself to realize that intel was bullshit. And when Detheroc was unmasked, any justification for Anduin not punishing Genn for crimes against peace and treason (for breaking his orders, which Genn did according to Anduin). Instead Alliance was hurrdurring about the great treason of Broken Shore even in BtS.

Oh look, another "I'm desperate to paint Alliance as the villains" thread. Sorry, that's not what Blizz is writing whether anyone here likes it or not.

Are you saying Blizzard didn't write the quests and the book the OP if referring to?

Some guy cuts my arm so I murder his mother.

Yeah, he started it first but I escalated it beyond any reasonable proportion.

That's what the Horde did.

There are no reasonable proportions in war. The Horde is free to react as it pleases. If the Alliance wasn't willing to take the Horde's escalation, they shouldn't have started shit in the first place. Rather simple. And your comparison stinks. The mother is a third party in the scuffle mentioned in it. Attacking Alliance in retaliation for Alliance's actions doesn't involve a third party.

[Cobman]

@Mehrunes mental gymnastics at their finest. Nothing new comin from you, if u wanna put shade to alliance atleast do it properly.

Alliance failed night elves and as we saw in cinematic they alrdy are recruiting farmers so i imagine there should be more states like westfall but thats all the greyness it has in this expansion. However Anduin could have some personal war with Sylvanas and that war was one of his wishes, that could put some proper shade to almighty god-king.

[Mehrunes]

@Mehrunes mental gymnastics at their finest. Nothing new comin from you, if u wanna put shade to alliance atleast do it properly.

TIL paying attention to chronology of events of a book constitutes mental gymnastics. Who'd have thunk. Then again what to expect from someone who thinks that asking whether Jaina knew about Surneaver dragonhawks being killed in Dalaran after it's already been said that Jaina outright ordered it makes a logical question.

[Orby]

It doesn't matter if we interpret the Alliance as aggressors. Blizzard intends for the Horde to be the aggressors and for the Alliance to be lawful good and morally right.

Man, as an Alliance player I'd die for another Garithos character so we can get a bit of chaos, so bored of playing super best friends forever. Give us some bloody inner turmoil dammit !!!

I only wish we were the aggressors. It might actually make us interesting.

Right now Blizzard have Alliance as the goody good good of Goodness. yay!

[Gungnir]

Some guy cuts my arm so I murder his mother.

Yeah, he started it first but I escalated it beyond any reasonable proportion.

That's what the Horde did.

Well, that tends to be called "deterrence".
If you fuck up something to the point where it's only ash, your opponent is usually either less interested in attacking you, or a lot more catious leading to you having a greater chance of controlling the battle.

Unfortunately, Horde picked a fight with "human potential" and the unerring god-wisdom of the light.
All shall be the light, united as one.
Ia ia Anduin fth'agn.

[Maleific]

I guess that makes genocide okay.

When you're essentially engaged in a race war, isn't genocide kind of hard to avoid when you're invading enemy enthnocities?

[Jester Joe]

May be only my impression, but so far Delaryn and Anduin have been the only characters shown this expansion to actually cry.

Food for thought - Only after Sira gets rezzed into undeath does she become really whiny about how everything is everyone else's fault.

[Feanoro]

Food for thought - Only after Sira gets rezzed into undeath does she become really whiny about how everything is everyone else's fault.

The true horror of the curse of undeath, you become an emo!

[Magnagarde]

That moment when preventing Sylvanas from obtaining materials she intends to make WMDs with, while most Alliance figureheads genuinely intend to heal the world, justifies the incineration of a species to near extinction as they're stuck on a tree out at the sea.

In a logical setting, Sylvanas and Gallywix would be world bosses that we all kill together because their actions are screwing the planet both factions fought to preserve for so long. The Horde heroes should be asking Gallywix why his green greedballs are stealing the world's lifeblood for Sylvanas to make WMDs with, instead of helping them get through with it.

[Maljinwo]

After Teldrassil, no Alliance action can be considered as aggresive enough unless they literally rape baby tauren in front of their parents

[Trumpcat]

This is so hard sucked out of someone's fingers it's funny to even reply in a serious manner. Like most of the Horde fanboi "proof" it's exaggerated, taken out of context and presented in a very twisted way to serve the OPs idea.

[mickybrighteyes]

That moment when preventing Sylvanas' Horde from obtaining materials she intends to make WMDs with, while also trying to actually heal the world, justifies the incineration of a species to near extinction as they're stuck on a tree out at the sea.

In a logical setting, Sylvanas and Gallywix would be world bosses that we all kill together because their actions are screwing the planet both factions fought to preserve for so long.

just one issue though.

There's not much proog that we're really doing anything about healing the planet or that the azerite infused necklaces really ARE healing anything or that Magni has any idea about how he should be proceeding. The saving Azeroth angle is basically following someone who has stated they don't know what they're doing as they fat finger lost relics beyond mortal understanding.

The other issue is that YES various parties are acting on the azerite in very self interested ways. Horde trying to get some super weapon because they think the alliance will never leave them alone.... and the alliance not leaving them alone because they might somehow get an edge against them. Logic has no place in this writing anymore once they threw out the assassination attempt, hostile espionage, and botched coup attempt.... following some magic imbued guy as they fumble through ancient world altering test facilities seems as sound as nuking each other to hell and back.

[Magnagarde]

just one issue though.

There's not much proog that we're really doing anything about healing the planet or that the azerite infused necklaces really ARE healing anything or that Magni has any idea about how he should be proceeding. The saving Azeroth angle is basically following someone who has stated they don't know what they're doing as they fat finger lost relics beyond mortal understanding.

I don't disagree with you there. We don't know how and if anything the playable heroes do will save Azeroth. The whole point I'm trying to make is that one side went in with the intent to heal the world, while the other side thought they're going in with the intent to heal, only to be duped by their leader and get dragged into a war they now have to fight to the end. The Horde is their warchief's victim too.

[mickybrighteyes]

I don't disagree with you there. The whole point I'm trying to make is that one side went in with the healing mentality, while the other side thought they're going in with a healing mentality, only to be duped by their leader.

actually. it seems to both sides went with a defend themselves angle. Anduin and friends did first agree that Sylvanas must be stopped and the horde must be prevented from getting Azerite as their first instincts... NOT simply saving the planet.

[Stelio Kontos]

actually. it seems to both sides went with a defend themselves angle. Anduin and friends did first agree that Sylvanas must be stopped and the horde must be prevented from getting Azerite as their first instincts... NOT simply saving the planet.

Considering how she's always been, and how she's conducted this war, they were wise to want to stop her from getting even more azerite.

[Hitei]

Ehm Before the Storms makes it clear that the Explorer's League made it to Silithus first, most of them were murdered by Gallywix's people except for Sapphronetta who was kidnapped. Alliance as the aggressor is still canon of course because of the events of Stormheim, though at that point everyone was acting under the false information fed to the Alliance by Detheroc.

This is wrong but OP is even more wrong. The explorer's league is not there first, but much later.

At some point after the sword hits, Anduin sends SI:7 to keep an eye on the sword, and Gallywix sends goblins to investigate the possibility of Azerite after his cane is triggered by its awakening. It is unclear (and also doesn't really matter) who gets there first, but the Goblins note Azerite, and SI:7 keeps watch from afar (seen in the epilogue cinematics). Afterwards, the Alliance sends more SI:7 to keep an eye on the goblins, and the explorer's league to investiage Azerite.

There is no fighting up until this point.

The explorer's league arrives in Silithus, and the Goblins have completely taken over every azerite vein. So the explorer's league and their sentinel guard stay away from the goblins for several days, just making observations of the azerite through long-range equipment. The Alliance deliberately does not engage. After several nights of making observations, the explorer's league camp is attacked in the middle of the night by Goblins, who kill at least two sentinels, and kidnap Sapphy. That is the canon, first combat of the entire situation.

At some point afterwards, Anduin and Shaw send the Alliance player to Silithus, while Nathanos and Sylvanas send the Horde player (we know that this happens AFTER Sapphy's kidnapping, because the Alliance quests involve giving the explorer's league in silithus samples to study, and if they had samples they wouldn't have had to rely on purely remote observations prior to being attacked). The Alliance players are sent in to secure samples by force and disable the Goblin mining operations, while at the same time the Horde players are sent in to clear out SI:7 rogues--we know that these happen at the same time, because the Horde specifically talks about how the Alliance are just skulking around, there is literally zero mention of any attacks when the Horde player arrives.


All of this is completely unimportant, though, since the war has nothing at all to do with Silithus. Sylvanas is already planning the war and striking at Stormwind before she even knows about Azerite or that the Goblins are mining it in Silithus. The war is, and never was, about or started by Silithus. It was about Sylvanas seeing a vulnerability in the Alliance after the fight against the Legion to give the Horde an opportunity to quickly grab Kalimdor and then, with the Alliance divided by the attack with Darnassus held hostage they'd be unable to unite in an action and weak to continued aggression.

That is how the war started, period. It has nothing to do with Silithus, it has nothing to do with Stormheim. It was purely Sylvanas seeing an opportunity for expansion and conquest.

[mickybrighteyes]

Considering how she's always been, and how she's conducted this war, they were wise to want to stop her from getting even more azerite.

Yes, but do remember that shortly after she was instated as warchief, the alliance had already started making attempts on her existence and undermining any semblance of peace.... regardless of Sylvanas' demeanor the alliance hasn't shown they can be trusted to maintain any sort of peace. A fact the writing has forgotten.

Now thing is, that these actions were tkaen before anyone had any real proof of what azerite could do. It could just be some drug that got people high on contact for all the information that was out. *touch* "THIS SHIT DOES EVERYTHING!!!!" quote the railroad.

[Peebuddy]

Yes, but do remember that shortly after she was instated as warchief, the alliance had already started making attempts on her existence and undermining any semblance of peace.... regardless of Sylvanas' demeanor the alliance hasn't shown they can be trusted to maintain any sort of peace. A fact the writing has forgotten.

Now thing is, that these actions were tkaen before anyone had any real proof of what azerite could do. It could just be some drug that got people high on contact for all the information that was out. *touch* "THIS SHIT DOES EVERYTHING!!!!" quote the railroad.

Funny how the Alliance forget about sinking a supposedly "Ally's fleet" and the attempted capture & or assassination of the recently anointed Warchief because a vindictive old man with an axe to grind felt "She was up to something". Clearly not a hostile action worthy of war at all!