Alliance aggressors confirmed

[Cobman]

Ok lets pretend that genn getting the journal is cannon and stormhiem happened after. how does that justify him trying to assassinate the leader of the only other superpower on the planet during a invasion of literal demons from spacehell.

Who needs to justify that? We are fine with his choices. To hell with banshee queen.

[Canpinter]

It doesn't. It does explain why the Alliance sent a force to surveil Sylvanas which Genn and Rogers then hijacked to carry out their personal vendetta. Though if this was a clandestine mission, I still think it would have changed to an attempted assassination the moment the Alliance realised what Sylvanas was planning in Skold-Ashil.

so then we can agree that alliance started the current faction war and horde simply escalated it.

[Zantos]

Genn Greymane attacked first, unprovoked, back in Legion. During the time we were to have a peace treaty, he was trying to set up the war himself. Putting the whispers into the Kings ear that the Horde killed his dad. Genn is the true aggressor here. His actions caused it all.

[Syegfryed]

The true owners of the planet are the elementals.

If trolls came from the elementals then they are the owners.

Also taurens

[Jastall]

Ok lets pretend that genn getting the journal is cannon and stormhiem happened after. how does that justify him trying to assassinate the leader of the only other superpower on the planet during a invasion of literal demons from spacehell.

It doesn't, which is why I find the conversation pointless. Genn acted rashly and stupidly, putting many lives at risk, losing an airship over a grudge match and straining Alliance and Horde relations during a time where doing so might mean the end of the world.

That does not mean there were no reasons for what he did, or that it wasn't in-character. It is a huge failure of judgment on his part. But what it is not, is the start of a new war. Sylvanas herself does not consider it as such.

[Shiza]

Genn Greymane attacked first, unprovoked, back in Legion. During the time we were to have a peace treaty, he was trying to set up the war himself. Putting the whispers into the Kings ear that the Horde killed his dad. Genn is the true aggressor here. His actions caused it all.

The Alliance is still a military pact of independent nations and there is no canonical evidence that there was ever a peace treaty between Gilneas and Undercity, so Genns actions were a legitimate attack on an enemy that started an unprovoked war against his nation.

[Zandalariprelate]

Yes, but that happens when there are no consistent rules in WoW in place.

That is good point, most of the writers has a very loose or not leash at all depending who they are

[Tripzzz]

Maybe by the new characterisation and retcons introduced by Afrasiabi and Golden.

Stop defending them. Those two are supposed to be ridiculed and shamed, not praised.

You didn't mention Danuser "the Blightcaller". You must like him. Lmao. They are all shit. It's not like Alex and golden are the only bad ones.

[Tripzzz]

Genn Greymane attacked first, unprovoked, back in Legion. During the time we were to have a peace treaty, he was trying to set up the war himself. Putting the whispers into the Kings ear that the Horde killed his dad. Genn is the true aggressor here. His actions caused it all.

Ok lets pretend that genn getting the journal is cannon and stormhiem happened after. how does that justify him trying to assassinate the leader of the only other superpower on the planet during a invasion of literal demons from spacehell.

How are Horde players still confused about why Genn instigated an attack during Stormheim? The Alliance in lore believes the Horde betrayed them during the broken shore. Varian was killed and Genn wanted revenge. In the Stormheim cinematic Genn literally says "For Varian!" as one of his reasons. This is what blizzard said so themselves.

J. Allan Brack at 1h4m35s

"Alliance. Alliance. You do not forget the Broken Shore. You do not forget the betrayal that lead to the death of your own King Varian."

And this is for anyone who wants to argue the Alliance should have seen the Spaceships beyond the cliff. The cinematics show no spacesphips from the Alliance PoV and Blizzard themselves state the Alliance perceiving betrayal at the Broken Shore is canon. In game =/= Lore. Otherwise entire cities are only a few houses and NPCs are literally retarded. In game you stand in a raid bosses room getting ready and they don't see your whole group 30 yards away?

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Danuser has a Horde bias so Verdugo is probably OK with him.

Not only that, but the dude is obsessed with undead elves and he's self-aware about it!

https://twitter.com/Moorgard

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Death_Hunter_Moorgoth

[Leodric]

Not only that, but the dude is obsessed with undead elves and he's self-aware about it!

https://twitter.com/Moorgard

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Death_Hunter_Moorgoth

Rofl, it's worse than I thought. What a caricature NPC is that.

Quoting from the quest text "Moorgard: I mean, just look at Velonara over there. She's like a dream! So brooding, so mysterious, so... dark."

[StaeleAilar]

The point is more that the Alliance "started" a regional scuffle at best, while the Horde started the full-scale war with the invasion of NE lands, and then escalated the conflict beyond any reasonable proportions with the Burning.

"They started it so everything we do is justified!" is a silly position to take, and a quite impractical one as well. The Alliance isn't blameless, much as the writers are indeed trying to convince us, but that doesn't mean the Horde didndunuffin. We are definitely responsible for the current apocalyptic state of the war, or what would be an apocalyptic state if this were not an MMO that needs to keep running and thus won't let something as insignificant as a world war have actual consequences.

Unfortunately, the general take of the die hard horde is that basically... this is an acceptable excuse. You see it time and time again "it wasnt THE horde it was _____(whoever is in charge at the time)'s horde! we shouldn't be blamed".

HOWEVER i will say, i was PERSONALLY hoping that the alliance were the aggressors this time around and starting it all. But i'll admit that also comes from a selfish point of view were consistently over the years the horde have started a scuffle and finished it before the alliance even gets ONE troop there for backup. So the horde quests were always slaying alliance and taking control while the alliance was showing up after the fight to clean up the broken trees and get rid of the furbolgs.

[Mehrunes]

Ah yes, those famous """"SI:7"""" Minerologists that have nothing to do with SI:7, aren't listed as SI:7 and aren't dressed like SI:7.
<image snip>

Where is it said that SI:7 doesn't employ specialists in various fields? They'd be a piss-poor agency if that's how they operated. And is this NPC called Explorer's League? No? Then you've got nothing. Since you apparently need to be spoonfed information:
1. the quests don't mention Explorer's League.
2. in turn, the chapters of Before the Storm that revolve around Explorer's League escapades in Silithus don't mention SI:7. SI:7 is mentioned in the book 4 times. Twice it's on page 12 in the chapter that repeats the events of the Silithus cinematic. Then there's a whole load of nothing until pages 223 and 225 that get 1 mention each. Both these pages are waaaaaaay past the whole Silithus plotline of the story and are made in reference to final preparations for the Gathering.
3. In the quests SI:7 was gathering more samples because they already had some samples before the questline or the book even began. Explorer's League had no samples by your own admission. These are two different objectives that don't mesh with each other at all, making your contortion in previous post absolutely wrong on all parts.
4. The start of the questline that happens in the beginning of the book doesn't happen just before Explorer's League is sent to Silithus. It happens before there even is an idea to sent Explorer's League to Silithus. Anduin gets the idea to send the league after talking to Magni somewhere ~1/3rd into the book. SI:7 reinforcements that the questline is about are sent there in the beginning chapters of the book. So what is your idea here? That SI:7 that was tasked with gathering more information pronto did nothing and sat on their asses waiting for Explorer's League to arrive even though that wasn't even on the schedule when they were sent there themselves?

Please just stop while you are behind.

The only way I could be possibly behind you at this point would be if I were Captain America in Winter Soldier and you were the Falcon hearing "on your left" from me for the third time.

I already told you that there is a difference between the factions being formally at war and the factions being openly hostile to each other. And the issue of who was the aggressor (i.e. what the topic is about) answers the question of "who initiated the hostilities", not "who formally declared war". Did I say they were at war there? No? Then what are you arguing against other than your desperate straw-men?

What I did say was that the factions were openly hostile. Your quotes about how they weren't at war don't disprove that in the slightest. And trust me, I can quote much more examples from the books supporting that claim. But I'll have mercy on you.

"Hurr, Gilneas doesn't count because the Alliance and Horde worked together at the end up MoP! But please also pretend that Stormheim counts even though the Alliance and Horde worked together at the end of Legion, after that."

Except that's not what I said about Gilneas. Gilneas doesn't count because the factions made peace. Which happened after them working together against Garrosh. So hurr indeed. And the factions don't work together at the Legion. Representatives of the Class Orders gathered in Silithus to fix the sword together. Not the main factions.

Oh I see, so we're just going the delusional pretend that Suramar, every single Class Hall campaign and Argus did not happen route. Cool.

Why would I pretend that Class Hall campaigns did not happen when the very paragraph you're replying to here was about how Class Halls had to lead the fight because the factions were at each others' throats? Which was Blizzard's official explanation for introducing Class Orders during Blizzcon. Oh, right, you're not even reading what you're replying to at this point. Did individual members of the factions cooperate within the Class Orders? Yes. Were they acting in the name of their respective factions? No. The factions themselves were busy bickering over Warden towers. Argus is a continuation of that, with various members of Class Orders getting in on the action.

Suramar is a pitiful example as well. Whoopty doo, Lor'themar cooperates with Jaina in 8.2, just like he ultimately did at the end of 5.2. Does that mean there was no faction conflict in MoP and that there is no faction conflict in BfA? Or did members of the factions agree to lay down their weapons against a mutual enemy for a moment? I mean, why do you think the Suramar campaign needed Kirin Tor peacekeepers?

You are genuinely just embarrassing yourself, and I urge you to stop before you make it even worse.

"Anduin shot him a sharp look. “If this goes well,” he repeated, adding, “and I believe it will, this could plant a seed. If these few people can find common ground, why not a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand, or more?” Aware that negative emotions were running high and threatening to overshadow other factors, he tried appealing to their tactical minds. “Why would Sylvanas openly start a war? She’s got much to lose and little to gain. The Horde is preoccupied with the same concerns that face the Alliance: how to recover from the devastating war with the Legion. How to heal Azeroth and how to keep Azerite from falling into the hands of the opposition. Do you think she wants to fight another open war with all that going on?”

You either deliberately ignoring or being unable to comprehend me pointing out to you that lack of formal declaration of war doesn't mean the factions weren't openly hostile to each other and that they were openly hostile to each other vide the Gathering requiring a cease fire doesn't constitute me embarrassing yourself. Just the opposite, it constitutes you embarassing yourself because you either don't understand what you're reading and replying to, yet do so anyway or you're actively engaging in fallacies and hoping no one notices. Suffice to say you quoting how the factions weren't at war there still doesn't disprove anything I say, because at no point have I said a word about factions being at war during the Gathering. You desperately trying to railroad the discussion to something I wasn't even arguing is a fault of your argumentation, not mine.

But sure, if you want to continue just being objectively fucking wrong and pretending there wasn't a treaty in place as of the end of Before the Storm (read: AFTER all the shit in Silithus and before A Good War) even when the text clearly says there's a treaty, I guess go ahead and make it even more clear you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Again, your quotations "disprove" only things that I didn't even say. So spare me your riveting tale on how I'm "objectively wrong" when you spent more than a dozen paragraphs arguing against only your fantasies.

Rofl, it's worse than I thought. What a caricature NPC is that.

Quoting from the quest text "Moorgard: I mean, just look at Velonara over there. She's like a dream! So brooding, so mysterious, so... dark."

In this case it's kinda by design though.

You didn't mention Danuser "the Blightcaller". You must like him. Lmao. They are all shit. It's not like Alex and golden are the only bad ones.

Danuser has his flaws but Blightcaller isn't really one of them. Especially in context that @Verdugo brought up. There's no new characterization or retcons to Nathanos since Danuser took the reins. He acts the same way he has always acted.

Danuser has a Horde bias so Verdugo is probably OK with him.

Or because there's no change to Nathanos' characterization of any sort despite Danuser's "deep infatuation" with the character.

The Alliance is still a military pact of independent nations and there is no canonical evidence that there was ever a peace treaty between Gilneas and Undercity, so Genns actions were a legitimate attack on an enemy that started an unprovoked war against his nation.

Guards in Ashran mention a treaty being in place. And Genn wasn't acting in the name of any independent nations in Stormheim. He was sent there by the High King of the Alliance and was acting under his orders (that, per Anduin's own views on the topic, he broke).

It doesn't, which is why I find the conversation pointless. Genn acted rashly and stupidly, putting many lives at risk, losing an airship over a grudge match and straining Alliance and Horde relations during a time where doing so might mean the end of the world.

That does not mean there were no reasons for what he did, or that it wasn't in-character. It is a huge failure of judgment on his part. But what it is not, is the start of a new war. Sylvanas herself does not consider it as such.

And the topic still isn't about who started the war, but who started the aggression. You don't need a war to have aggression and hostile relations. The war is simply the final stage of that. And since neither Genn having his reasons nor him acting in character actually negate his aggression, his act of aggression constitutes Alliance being the aggressor.

[Tripzzz]

Danuser has his flaws but Blightcaller isn't really one of them. Especially in context that @Verdugo brought up. There's no new characterization or retcons to Nathanos since Danuser took the reins. He acts the same way he has always acted.

Danuser is the one who wrote that Nathanos and Slyvanus had sex in a barn. He wrote Dark Mirror, where it's shown that she likes him and constantly gives him hints. Prior to that, there was nothing to suggest Nathanos was in a relationship with Slyvanus. Unless you have proof of such a relationship existing before "Dark Mirror". This relationship adds nothing of value in the narrative. Nathanos' loyalty could be explained by simply being a Forsaken. It's just another example of an elf falling in love with a human. A relationship trope people constantly berate but somehow Nathanos and Slyvanus are exempt from. Because their romantic relationship is hollow.

Nathanos went from being an actual zombie with 2 plaguehounds into a walmart dracula wannabe with no real new powers other than "more durable", all thanks to Danuser.

[Mehrunes]

so then we can agree that alliance started the current faction war and horde simply escalated it.

There was no war yet at that point, no. But that doesn't mean there were no conflict between them, which is what this thread is ultimately about. Which is something that brilliant Alliance posters keep trying to pretend didn't happen, because apparently the world is binary and if there's no formal war it means everything is peaceful and fine. Even though the factions needed a one day cessation of hostilities to even have a peaceful gathering of civilians on neutral ground. Apparently you can have ceasefires without conflict. A true revelation discovered by the sharpest Alliance minds. Diplomats across the world are now attending seminars led by them.

It doesn't. It does explain why the Alliance sent a force to surveil Sylvanas which Genn and Rogers then hijacked to carry out their personal vendetta. Though if this was a clandestine mission, I still think it would have changed to an attempted assassination the moment the Alliance realised what Sylvanas was planning in Skold-Ashil.

Why would it? Sylvanas succeeding in Skol-Ashil and turning the Forsaken immortal would mean her losing an incentive for dead humans, which is only beneficial for the population of Stormwind. Given Sylvanas' isolationist tendencies if not provoked, vide her sitting on her ass throughout most of the previous faction war after she kicked the Alliance out of most of the continent of Lordaeron in 4.0, assuring that Sylvanas can make the Forsaken immortal would have been in Alliance's best interest.

The question of course is, should Anduin have done something afterwards? Unlike the Warchief, Genn has sworn no oath of fealty to him so he cannot actually compel any form of penance from him. He could of course have been much harsher with Rogers, that is true. What Anduin did was ask Sylvanas to agree to the meeting in Arathi. I see that as his attempt to mend wounds.

Yes he can. The High King has authority over the forces given to him. Genn was acting under his command in that mission, by his own admission. Meaning Anduin had the authority in that case. And what an attempt at mending wounds the Gathering was! From "this is not an offering of peace" to bringing Genn's unpunished ass to the Gathering to parade in front of Sylvanas as if Anduin had a shortage of advisers to bring with him.

[Tripzzz]

Imagine going from this



To this.



And saying there is no change to his character. He's a fucking zombie hunter. He used to have badass plaguehounds as dual pets. Now he looks like a gray human that shoots arrows and that's pretty much it. Wow. Very cool. The Val'kyr power up was only temporary and "fairy" type bullshit compared to true necromancy like those plaguehounds.

[Mehrunes]

Dude every second comment here is yours, im pretty sure that YOU think that you know better but when you start to argue with pretty much everyone in this threat you look like a joke. You cant over-argue majority and your opinion is not the most important here. I dont get what your agenda is but it seems that you bash alliance as hard as you can. Story is not that complex. Stop trying that hard to show that you know the best, cuz thats not true cheerio

Is this argumentum ad populum fallacy here supposed to impress me? Because it doesn't.

[Specialka]

If the Alliance had no moral or ethic, I guess that letting Sylvanas slaves Eyir would be in their best interest. But too bad, the Alliance are the Good Guys.

[Tripzzz]

So Mehrunes, are you gonna reply to my posts or are you still trying to twist logic into a convoluted pretzel? Where is the proof that Nathanos and Slyvanus has an intimate relationship in lore prior to Dark Mirror(written by Danuser)? What is the point of turning a zombie hunter with two plaguehounds(a unique and distinct power) into a shitty Dracula rip off? He's more human now because he has hot zombie elf girlfriend. Nathanos may act the same but he now runs on 100% pure human potential. And his powers are no longer as identifiable as he used to be. He's literally no different than a standard Dark ranger. He's trash.

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Awwwww. He ran away. Guess he went to check the wiki. Lmao.

[Mehrunes]

We haven't been in Sylvanas's head between Edge of Night and Before the Storm as I recall, which is where we know she wants to conquer Stormwind, also more importantly she wasn't Warchief beforehand with the entire faction at her beck and call + her explicit need to placate them with the spoils of war. So to say that Stormheim was the one catalyst is conjecture given that last I checked she doesn't mention the event once in her inner thoughts, only when pitching her plan to Saurfang, and crucially said pitch doesn't follow her monologues 100%. She sat out the war post-4.0 because in Cata the war was completely forgotten about after said patch and because most everyone in the Horde sat out the actual faction war in Mists except the characters featured in the pre-patch and 5.1, also if memory serves Garrosh says he doesn't trust or want the Forsaken to be part of the current war effort.

Blizzard forgetting things doesn't work as an in-universe explanation. And even Baine and Vol'jin were personally involved in things like Theramore, while Sylvanas sent a token force to shut Garrosh up. Even though Baine was revolted at the very idea of fighting his human overlords. And while the faction war took a back seat in Cata, it returned in force in MoP. Yet Sylvanas was still nowhere to be seen. Whereas Baine, continuing his example, helped out throughout 5.1. Vol'jin was officially dead at that point so he wasn't active then for obvious reasons.

And Garrosh being a salty fuck about Forsaken being in the Horde didn't preclude Sylvanas from working on her own. She already did whatever she wanted even when she was actually active in 4.0 with Garroshs' legates watching her moves. If she really craved Alliance blood, why didn't she continue the conquest of Lordaeron continent and attack Aerie Peak? Or why didn't she invade Wetlands given how it's only significant defense was utterly ravaged by the Cataclysm? Instead after finally securing Gilneas somewhere in late Cata she issued a naval blockade of the region that she kept up till Legion.

As for the second paragraph, either the Warchief gets the credit or not. Saurfang led the War of the Thorns, the Horde's only real success, not Sylvanas. Thus either Garrosh gets the credit for Sylvanas's conquests in Cataclysm and Sylvanas gets the credit for the defeat of the NEs, or Sylvanas gets the credit for Gilneas, Andorhal and Hillsbrad and Saurfang gets the credit for Ashenvale and Darkshore. As for the Alliance having superpowered beings, welcome to high fantasy, these are things that happen, and Sylvanas is second only to Jaina herself on the bullshit power level argument anyway.

Except Sylvanas took over in Zoram'gar when Malfurion's Wisp blockade fucked with Saurfang's plans while Saurfang was sent on a mountain-scaling adventure in Felwood. Garrosh took no part in Gilneas after his initial moronic push on the gate that resulted in nothing and Sylvanas had to completely change the way that war was fought because Garrosh was deliberately wasteful in how he used the Forsaken because he wanted them gone.

And Jaina ex machina isn't really an argument about Jaina being overpowered per se (though she is given how her full powered attack didn't even make Thalen sweat and there are no events that'd justify her growth since then). It's more about the magically coincidental moment of her arrival even though she was acting all of her own and didn't discuss anything with the rest of the Alliance. Plus the other issues that aren't related to her power like how she avoided friendly fire or how freezing the Blight also eliminated all the vapor that was already in the air and was deadly all by itself.

And given that the Horde's disproportionate response did jack shit to stop them from getting spanked nor did it stop other enemies from having a beef with us so far, I'd say it is a failed policy on both a moral and practical standpoint.

Only because this is an MMO that relies on plot contrivance to force a status quo. Even putting Jaina aside, according to the balance of naval power at the start of BfA discussed in A Good War, the Alliance shouldn't have been able to even land in Tirisfal and if not for their plot armor Anduin and his lot would be fish food for Tirisfal's aquatic life.

The part when most people who have only heard vague elements would assume they don't actually know anything because that is the responsible approach? Genn knowing that Sylvanas is after something in Stormheim doesn't mean he knows what she is after. Why would he say otherwise?
I seriously do not understand the contrarianism. Why did Blizzard add that quest for the Alliance if it was not to mean anything as part of the story? And why is it so bad for Alliance to have had a reason to follow Sylvanas to see what she was after? In no way does it excuse attacking her up until the point in Skold-Ashil (at which attacking her is the only strategic choice). No one says otherwise, even Anduin was against it.

Right. Because people trying to figure out the next move on their opponent wouldn't use whatever information they already have to do so. Why wouldn't Genn theorize whatever the "power of v" Sylvanas is after. Obviously voicing such concerns wouldn't give an opportunity for the player or some NPCs to give some ideas or at least offer a fresh perspective. Makes all the sense in the world. Not like anything of that was even needed in a zone full of Vrykul and, more importantly, Val'kyr, making the answer obvious to anyone who knew how reliant on the Val'kyr Sylvanas is. Now, if only the Alliance knew of that importance of Val'kyr to the Forsaken... Oh, wait, they know that since Cataclysm.

Also, how does the notion that "this quest in Azsuna must mean something as part of the story" (as if the Azsuna questline wasn't a story in and on itself) automatically lead to the conclusion that Genn must have known about it when he says he knows nothing? That's rather fallacious reasoning. Especially since there's still the Horde version of the Azsuna book questline which is mutually exclusive with the one for Alliance. "Why did Blizzard add that quest for the Horde if it was not to mean anything as part of the story?"

And you must browse the lore forum only sporadically if you think no one says that the book questline doesn't excuse Genn.

To segue into Stormheim for both sides?

But the actual segue into Stormheim is the tiny quest you get at mission table in the Class Order Hall talking about your faction requesting your assistance.

If you had actually played through that quest, you'd know that the Alliance merely went to investigate this new mysterious substance, and because they did not trust the Horde NOT to attack thm with it.
But as soon as they arrived, teh Horde attacked them unprovoked, so the Alliance had no choice but to fight back.

"The Horde attacked the Alliance unprovoked when Alliance merely went to get samples of Azerite. Which they "merely" did by killing Goblins and looting the samples from their corpses."

[Tripzzz]

And Jaina ex machina isn't really an argument about Jaina being overpowered per se (though she is given how her full powered attack didn't even make Thalen sweat and there are no events that'd justify her growth since then). It's more about the magically coincidental moment of her arrival even though she was acting all of her own and didn't discuss anything with the rest of the Alliance. Plus the other issues that aren't related to her power like how she avoided friendly fire or how freezing the Blight also eliminated all the vapor that was already in the air and was deadly all by itself.




Only because this is an MMO that relies on plot contrivance to force a status quo. Even putting Jaina aside, according to the balance of naval power at the start of BfA discussed in A Good War, the Alliance shouldn't have been able to even land in Tirisfal and if not for their plot armor Anduin and his lot would be fish food for Tirisfal's aquatic life.

Ahhhhh. More Mehrunes bullshit. What kind of attack did Jaina hit Thalen with? Pure Arcane. Jaina excels at Frost magic. Spot the difference.

As for your second bullshit point. How would the Alliance get forces to Tirisfal? There are mutliple option.

1. Vindicaar and Aurobos fly in and drop teleport beacons.
2. Void rifts(as seen druing the battle)
3. Dark Iron mole machines(Dark iron joined the Alliance in cata)
4. All of the above.

Sadly Blizzard would rather use boats.....