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  1. #81
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Part of this is intrinsic to the purpose of many so called "debates". In general most of these discussions, especially on emotionally sensitive topics, are not debates in the literal sense at all, but merely a way of solidifying ones identity. "Winning" and "Losing" are not really concepts at play at this sort of "debate", because both sides are completely immobile in their positions. Instead they are means to codify the tenants of your position, and display a sort of team pride in the position you chose.

    The Politics forum is a perfect example of this, and I have almost completely left it in the last couple months because of it. Not because other people were doing it that way, but because I found that I was. I would argue that most of what we are framing as "debate" is nothing more then emotional responses to challenges to our belief system. Actual rational debate is basically impossible with a mass audience, any more then 2-3 people and emotional responses will dominate the conversation.
    People aren't immobile though. It just means that you don't yet know the correct series of explanations that are needed to convince someone of an argument.

    As far as emotions, everything rational is explicit knowledge that has been built up from a vast amount of inexplicit emotions that are 'theory-laden'. As much as we want to act like Vulcans or beings of pure logic, that will never be possible. Let alone desirable, since it would destroy our creative capacity.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by PrimaryColor View Post
    People aren't immobile though. It just means that you don't yet know the correct series of explanations that are needed to convince someone of an argument.
    A lot of people are though.

    If I look at some immigrant groups that has come to Europe, their crime rates, their employment rate, their dependence on welfare benefits and say "These guys are bad for us. We gain nothing from having them here." people will still argue that we somehow benefit from having them here even though all existing data points to them being a huge problem. Guess what the others will say? Racist. Yeah, they'll call you that for using existing data to show that those groups are definitely not a benefit to society in any way.

    How do you convince someone that is detached from reality?

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I think the debate can happen, but its found in the pub and bar, and among friends, sincere friends. But its rarer now since politics has taken on an almost religious character for some. Friendships live and die by ideological litmus tests.

    My number of genuinely left-wing friends has dwindled IRL, largely because I started shifting to the right, or more aptly, wasn't down with the DNC and stayed to some extent true to the core of Occupy Wall Street and some other shit that formed my early ideas. As I became more of a radical, my centrist middling friends didn't like that I wasn't hip to Tumblr culture ect. I still have some of those old friends, but a few I lost contact with and I know why.
    Can’t speak for you but from my experience the left in general shifted so much to the left that a centrist now seems like a right winger and an average right winger seems like a far right extremist to them. While in truth those people did not change their stance at all.

    At the end of the day it's all a matter of perspective and the lack of self awareness of the people that keep moving away from the center.

  4. #84
    why dosent jordan peterson debate an actual neoliberal or even a neoconservative, instead of just "crazy far left sjws" Because if he was honest he would know the democratic party is actually neoliberal, and even somewhat neoconservative in the trump era, id like to see jordan peterson debate an actual political figure instead of strawman. hes just advancing putins agenda

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    Than prove me wrong? Every successful country that doesn't have minimum wage either has strong union or the government pays companies for raising workers wages(singapoore).

    He basically said minimum wage causes unemployment and it does but a small percentage. He also than went on to rant about unions which are the reason those countries can do away with unions. Union were demonized by both him and by conservatives in the untied states.

    Israel practices all three methods. Unions, government payouts, and minimum wage.
    Just back up and start from where you're translating what he said into what you perceive to be his beliefs.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Malikath View Post
    there is no "but" everything else is irrelevant.

    this has been done this way by people with less information at their disposal for thousands of years, you don't get to ask for a less scrutinizing context when you have the entirety of human knowledge on your fucking phones.

    this isn't an excuse, you're expected to know what you're talking about, either learn it or shut-up.
    Your viewpoint on this subject is so narrow that it feels like a complete waste of time to even bother.

    Yes, a structured debate should have people that actually know about their subject and have knowledge on materials on-hand. But you can quickly see from browsing the internet for a bit that what qualifies as a "debate" spans much larger than that. Live debates without resources onhand to confirm information or any kind of structure often just resort to a "he-said, she-said" that doesn't mean a damn thing other than who has the more aggressive personality.

    I've proved the point I'm trying to drill into your head like five times and you're repeating the same half-argument that's ignoring about 90% of the shit I type. Nothing it as simple as your simple brain tries to make it out to be, and if you can't see that yet then you're a waste of everyone's time in a conversation.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    Just back up and start from where you're translating what he said into what you perceive to be his beliefs.

    http://www.aei.org/publication/thoma...illed-workers/

    He is anti minimum wage and anti-union.

    He also compared Obama to Hitler but not Trump whose a lot similar. Trump is kind of trying to tear our institutions down and pack them with corrupt/incompetent people. He was basically mad at Obama because oil companies damaged the environment than got sued which sounds like the system working as intended.

    https://www.creators.com/read/thomas...m-wage-madness

    Those places have minimum wages they're just negotiate by unions.
    Last edited by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen; 2019-05-06 at 12:03 AM.
    Violence Jack Respects Women!

  8. #88
    The thing is debate needs to be treated as a learning opportunity. One of my first, and last debates I bothered watching had a creationist openly, somehow proudly, bragging about his ability to never change his mind in the face of new evidence. "then why TF did you come to a DEBATE?" I wanted to yell at the monitor.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by arandomuser View Post
    why dosent jordan peterson debate an actual neoliberal or even a neoconservative, instead of just "crazy far left sjws" Because if he was honest he would know the democratic party is actually neoliberal, and even somewhat neoconservative in the trump era, id like to see jordan peterson debate an actual political figure instead of strawman. hes just advancing putins agenda
    Huh? When did Jordan Peterson ever go to debate a crazy far left sjw?
    All he did so far are interviews with leftist journalists (do those qualify as "crazy far left sjw"?) and some political noncommitted people on religion stuff.

    Also it doesn't matter what the democratic party theoretically is when in practice it's the regressive leftists who dictate the course.

    I have no idea what putin has to do with anything. That's just a "lolwut?" from me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yes, I think a company should be legally allowed to refuse to serve black people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Right now the left is fact based

  10. #90
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malaky View Post
    Huh? When did Jordan Peterson ever go to debate a crazy far left sjw?
    All he did so far are interviews with leftist journalists (do those qualify as "crazy far left sjw"?) and some political noncommitted people on religion stuff.

    Also it doesn't matter what the democratic party theoretically is when in practice it's the regressive leftists who dictate the course.

    I have no idea what putin has to do with anything. That's just a "lolwut?" from me.

    Just admit you worship at the Alter of Trump, and he usually leaves you alone. It’s like the Salem witch trials with arandom. If you deny guilt, you’re guilty.
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  11. #91
    I always liked the dale Carnegie quote. I know he talks abt arguments and not "debates" but it's all the same to me.

    "I have come to the conclusion that there is only one way under high heaven to get the best of an argument - and that is to avoid it"

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I always liked the dale Carnegie quote. I know he talks abt arguments and not "debates" but it's all the same to me.

    "I have come to the conclusion that there is only one way under high heaven to get the best of an argument - and that is to avoid it"
    Better not stand in the way of the bull!

    With people who know how to revenge themselves and to stand up for themselves in general, how is it done? Why, when they are possessed, let us suppose, by the feeling of revenge, then for the time there is nothing else but that feeling left in their whole being. Such a gentleman simply dashes straight for his object like an infuriated bull with its horns down, and nothing but a wall will stop him. (By the way: facing the wall, such gentlemen--that is, the "direct" persons and men of action--are genuinely nonplussed. For them a wall is not an evasion, as for us people who think and consequently do nothing; it is not an excuse for turning aside, an excuse for which we are always very glad, though we scarcely believe in it ourselves, as a rule. No, they are nonplussed in all sincerity. The wall has for them something tranquillising, morally soothing, final-- maybe even something mysterious ... but of the wall later.) Dostoyevski - the Basement

  13. #93
    "Liars, bullies and trolls"


    Do they really?

    If this is about Trump and I assume it is, let's consider the viewpoint of his supporters for a moment. They see their man defending himself, something they feel they would do if they were in Trump's position. The "lies" they see as Trump making mistakes, something they might do too. Trolling isn't trolling if the person trolling isn't aware they are trolling. Trolling is a practical joke and requires self awareness.

    So from his supporter's viewpoint, Trump isn't a liar, bully, or a troll.
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

    -- Capt. Copeland

  14. #94
    Half the alt-right are 'red pilled' gamers.

    What they want to see is basically n00bs getting owned in pvp. Hence their fascination with professional debaters

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    "Liars, bullies and trolls"

    So from his supporter's viewpoint, Trump isn't a liar, bully, or a troll.
    Ofc he is. A walking talking middle finger meant to trigger the libs or whomever right-wingers perceive as the establishment. And the worse he is, the better he serves this purpose, so the louder they cheer him on. They don't like him despite his "mistakes", as you put it, but because of it. In other words, being a piece of shit isn't a bug with Trump, it's a feature

  15. #95
    I wouldnt call any of those people those words.
    Ben Shapiro - smart but religious
    Alexandria Ocasio - stupid, dont even know basic economics what she used to study
    Jordan Peterson - smart but religiuos

  16. #96
    Why debate at all? Just listen to people who agree with you so you never have to change your mind about anything!

  17. #97
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    I wouldnt call any of those people those words.
    Ben Shapiro - smart but religious
    Alexandria Ocasio - stupid, dont even know basic economics what she used to study
    Jordan Peterson - smart but religiuos
    It seems all “smart” men have that in common.

    From Socrates to Jefferson, to Tesla and Einstein...
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  18. #98
    https://www.breitbart.com/entertainm...ting-campaign/

    James woods was also banned for tweeting #hangthemall lol.
    Violence Jack Respects Women!

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    https://www.breitbart.com/entertainm...ting-campaign/

    James woods was also banned for tweeting #hangthemall lol.
    Not liking malls is a crime now?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    It seems all “smart” men have that in common.

    From Socrates to Jefferson, to Tesla and Einstein...
    True, well back in the days all educated people where religious or rather had to pretend to be since thats the only form of university there was.

  20. #100
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Not liking malls is a crime now?

    - - - Updated - - -



    True, well back in the days all educated people where religious or rather had to pretend to be since thats the only form of university there was.
    Don’t need to pretend if you know.
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

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