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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by KevyB View Post
    Your uneducated ignorance is cute, yet completely irrelevant.

    Again, this has everything to do with giving away real estate to immigration programs, just because your tiny mind cannot comprehend bigger scales doesn't mean it's not there.
    I'm sure you have empirical evidence to back this up, and not only your gut feeling?

  2. #22
    This is hardly a European issue. Hell my SO had the same shit happen to her and her ex when they lived in Hollywood, and it was in the lower income section as well. Gentrification has pretty much pushed the gay community out of West Hollywood and into areas like eagle rock to the north east.

  3. #23
    Come to Ireland if you want "Rent Insanity".

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    This literally has not a single fucking thing to do with immigration, numbskulls.

    Have you even fucking read the post? Gentrification and real estate speculation. Which is literally the primary driver behind real estate price hikes everywhere from Moscow to London. That and fucking AirBnB.

    Germans just happen to be about 10 years late to the party compared to most other major European nations.

    Go shitpost somewhere else.
    Immigration = more people = higher rent

    not that hard to think about it logically

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by aeuhe4yxzhds View Post
    Immigration = more people = higher rent

    not that hard to think about it logically
    Yet it isn't the issue. Homes aren't a finite resource. We can and do build more. And more importantly immigrants (the type you are referring to) don't actually drive property prices up, especially not in areas that are already expensive. Your average economic migrant will not move into a 3 bedroom apartment in downtown Berlin/Madrid/Barcelona/London/L.A/San Francisco.

    On the short term they will first fill the very lowest end of the real estate market and on the medium term drive new real estate development for low and median income families.

    The problem discussed in this thread is utterly unrelated to immigration in the sense you are thinking. Now, talking about Russian/Saudi/Chinese millionaires buying property in bulk in Western cities as an investment/tax dodge from their own governments and how that affects the market is entirely different discussion, that plagues some cities but again, it isn't an immigration problem and there as an easy fix for that.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2019-05-05 at 10:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    It's a bit more complicated than that.

    I live in Madrid in Spain. I do live in a highly gentrified and honestly quite pricey neighborhood. I never had any illusions about that. My building has 20 apartments, when I moved in I would say about half were locals, relatively young folk, and the rest like me foreigners, mostly other Americans and Scandinavians.

    About 4 or so years ago when AirBnB really took off, real estate speculators started buying up apartments or renting them over market price to re-let them as AirBnB.

    Now there are 6 of us left living in the building full time, the rest are all AirBnBs. My entire neighborhood is turning into this shit. Rent in the area increased 110% in 5 years. I am lucky as I am friends with my landlord and he doesn't want to sell.

    There are countless empty apartments in the area owned by real estate speculators who either bought it as an investment and are waiting to dump them in a few years or are actually quite shitty or small and can't be sold or rented at the insane asking rates.

    It's the problem with institutional speculators. They can buy and sit on something for years without renting it out or selling it. Which wipes out entire neighborhoods. Locals are outpriced, some of the buildings degrade, some are torn down or undergo massive renovations turning entire blocks into constructions sites further driving locals out. Apartment buildings that do short term rentals have constant problems with AirBnB guests being rowdy or destructive.

    Apartments just sitting empty often end up with squatters and it takes months and legal action for the other tenants to coerce the absentee landlords to take legal steps to evict the squatters.

    Local businesses lose their clients, schools lose the kids etc.

    There has to be a balance between the interests of investors and property owners and the other residents who have the right to a livable neighborhood.
    Huh, Wasn't even thinking about airbnb. But then again, wherever I've lived the landlord was usually a person, and they weren't always tremendously speculative, most viewed it as a hassle to get someone out, then months or in some of the "pricier but far away from the city" areas even a year or two of no money.

    Never really understood the core concept of airbnb, I would rather pay money to a hotel, with security, and cleaning services and all that, than pay money to stay in a stranger's house in a neighborhood I don't know when I'm already somewhere weird and new.
    O Flora, of the moon, of the dream. O Little ones, O fleeting will of the ancients. Let the hunter be safe. Let them find comfort. And let this dream, their captor, Foretell a pleasant awakening

  7. #27
    It's shocking to me how we have a clearly worded article that explains how investors and speculators are fucking with the housing market, yet we already had at least 3 people who instead of placing the blame where it is, would rather punch down to the lowest end of the socio-economic ladder to punish the people who don't have a single fucking thing to do with anything.

    That brainwashing goes deep.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Homes aren't a finite resource.
    Ok bro, finish grade school first then come back, aight?


    Ohhhh of course, you're a silly little american, no wonder why you hold that idiotic belief considering you people DO INDEED have limitless space for housing.

    THAT is not the case in europe, so again, LEARN.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by kasuke06 View Post
    Huh, Wasn't even thinking about airbnb. But then again, wherever I've lived the landlord was usually a person, and they weren't always tremendously speculative, most viewed it as a hassle to get someone out, then months or in some of the "pricier but far away from the city" areas even a year or two of no money.

    Never really understood the core concept of airbnb, I would rather pay money to a hotel, with security, and cleaning services and all that, than pay money to stay in a stranger's house in a neighborhood I don't know when I'm already somewhere weird and new.
    I get it on some level.

    I won't pretend I don't. As a matter of fact AirBnBs tend to be able to be both more cozy (you can cook, have all the commodities of your home) and often more affordable than hotels in the same price range. ESPECIALLY in big and touristy cities.

    I usually try to avoid using them, except for rural houses. If I am going somewhere away from the big city I prefer to rent a small house in a small village somewhere and such.

    The problem isn't inherently with the concept, but with the utter and total lack of regulation and AirBnBs blatant disregard for existing regulation. As AirBnB as a platform doesn't give a fuck, it doesn't matter what local ordinances might be put in place, it turns into this dumb whack-a-mole where authorities have to chase apartments around and try to enforce the rules locally and individually. Which as you might guess is fucking impossible in a city like Madrid, Barcelona, London, Berlin, New York, Los Angeles. Almost no local authority has the man power to deal with this and even trying it would overload the court systems with suits and countersuits.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KevyB View Post
    Ok bro, finish grade school first then come back, aight?
    We are all still waiting on that citation where you'll educate us.

    If it is not coming then again...STFU and GTFO. "Aight?"sic
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    This literally has not a single fucking thing to do with immigration, numbskulls.

    Have you even fucking read the post? Gentrification and real estate speculation. Which is literally the primary driver behind real estate price hikes everywhere from Moscow to London. That and fucking AirBnB.

    Germans just happen to be about 10 years late to the party compared to most other major European nations.

    Go shitpost somewhere else.
    Alright so I didn't grasp the point of complainers there, sorry for that. So apparently their point is not that they have nowhere to go because prices are high, but that they don't want to go anywhere from where they are at and want landlords to STFU and take as much money as whey are willing to offer and nothing more regardless of that the demand is high and there are customers willing to pay way more for same apartments. And when it's legally impossible they want the Government to step in and take away those baddies capitalists' property, right?

    Good thing they aren't yet considering capital punishment as a way of expropriation just like real hardcore commies did it back then, and high buy-out price is stopping them for now

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    I dunno if my thoughts make sense, but

    She's 58 and she's renting, what's going on there? Maybe I'm just too used to not living in a city and home ownership tends to be higher.
    Booming job market is great. Kinda wonder where the people are coming from? I don't particularly care for 'lol why are you taking so many refugees btfo germany' but it seems like free movement of people across the EU would really contribute to this.

    Another reason not to even try planting roots in a city unless you can buy property I guess.
    The own your own property scheme is not universally popular. In Switzerland only around 40% of people own the property. For Germany that is around 50% and for most of the EU its somewhere between 60 to 70%. The US and Canada both fall into that category too with around 65% is rates in both cases.

    Renting over owning is usually a more viable option in densely populated areas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  12. #32
    same problem in the uk,falling house prices attract people with savings and then there rent them out for double or treble the mortgage would be,i know 2 people who have 5 properties each and do this. its legal but scummy and not fair on low income workers.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    It's shocking to me how we have a clearly worded article that explains how investors and speculators are fucking with the housing market, yet we already had at least 3 people who instead of placing the blame where it is, would rather punch down to the lowest end of the socio-economic ladder to punish the people who don't have a single fucking thing to do with anything.

    That brainwashing goes deep.
    When your entire political spectrum is based on hating immigration, every problem seems to be caused by immigration. They aren't alone in this sadly. My favorite is the more people = higher rent argument. By this "logic" Mexico City would have higher property costs than Vancouver.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by KevyB View Post
    Ok bro, finish grade school first then come back, aight?


    Ohhhh of course, you're a silly little american, no wonder why you hold that idiotic belief considering you people DO INDEED have limitless space for housing.

    THAT is not the case in europe, so again, LEARN.
    Dude. You are still talking out of your ass, without having the faintest of the role of housing in the macroeconomy of nations and its interactions with finance and demand.

    I won't write a 5000 word essay to explain this to you, because frankly I don't think you have the basic grasp of other economic concepts to even understand it.

    A good starting point for you would be here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_estate_economics.

    Now I'm still waiting for that citation for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevyB View Post
    Your uneducated ignorance is cute, yet completely irrelevant.

    Again, this has everything to do with giving away real estate to immigration programs, just because your tiny mind cannot comprehend bigger scales doesn't mean it's not there.
    Or it just something you made up.

    Again, for the 4th time. Citation needed. Or do I need to explain the concept of citations to you? Now GTFO and stay there until you find that citation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by natpick View Post
    same problem in the uk,falling house prices attract people with savings and then there rent them out for double or treble the mortgage would be,i know 2 people who have 5 properties each and do this. its legal but scummy and not fair on low income workers.
    Do these low income workers have nowhere to go, some kind of cheap apartments for example? Someone in this thread told us the housing is infinite (not finite, literally) and keeps growing

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Renting over owning is usually a more viable option in densely populated areas.
    Yeah, I kind of wonder how some people think owning would work with huge appartment complexes that cost millions to buy and tens of thousands to operate per year - which often are owned by some larger investor who has no interest in selling each appartment separately. Like, the majority of building types you'd find in central areas of large cities, and also often in the satelites.

    On top of that: The people hit by this problem the most are also those that would never get a loan big enough to buy property, and even if - that would be run down and way far away from their work place, adding the cost and stress of long distance commute as well. A well functioning city HAS to be able to house low-income workers that work within the city. Anything else is not economical, and we can't expect local businesses paying their staff more to compensate for what huge investors damaged in the housing landscape.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    I get it on some level.

    I won't pretend I don't. As a matter of fact AirBnBs tend to be able to be both more cozy (you can cook, have all the commodities of your home) and often more affordable than hotels in the same price range. ESPECIALLY in big and touristy cities.

    I usually try to avoid using them, except for rural houses. If I am going somewhere away from the big city I prefer to rent a small house in a small village somewhere and such.

    The problem isn't inherently with the concept, but with the utter and total lack of regulation and AirBnBs blatant disregard for existing regulation. As AirBnB as a platform doesn't give a fuck, it doesn't matter what local ordinances might be put in place, it turns into this dumb whack-a-mole where authorities have to chase apartments around and try to enforce the rules locally and individually. Which as you might guess is fucking impossible in a city like Madrid, Barcelona, London, Berlin, New York, Los Angeles. Almost no local authority has the man power to deal with this and even trying it would overload the court systems with suits and countersuits.

    - - - Updated - - -



    We are all still waiting on that citation where you'll educate us.

    If it is not coming then again...STFU and GTFO. "Aight?"sic
    Oh, the uber problem, where tech outpaces regulation and people figure out they can really fuck things up while making a quick buck and attempting to abscond before their pop up get caught.
    O Flora, of the moon, of the dream. O Little ones, O fleeting will of the ancients. Let the hunter be safe. Let them find comfort. And let this dream, their captor, Foretell a pleasant awakening

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Do these low income workers have nowhere to go, some kind of cheap apartments for example? Someone in this thread told us the housing is infinite (not finite, literally) and keeps growing
    Okay Mr. Shitposter.

    The availability of housing is primarily limited in most cases not by space, but by cost. Cost of building, cost of maintenance, cost of transportation, cost of infrastructure etc. The limitations on availability are mostly artificial.

    Availability of housing and occupancy rates aren't synonymous. The placement of the housing is further limited by access to things like public transportation (aka, can I get to work from where I live in a timely fashion) which in turn are reliant on public investment, which is often not allocated based on equally or according to the actual needs of the market (lower income neighborhoods often don't get train stations, metro lines, highway access etc).

    Even in the most extreme scenarios where space is a limiting factor like Hong Kong, the limiting factor is artificial (the border with China, that is an actual border).

    Literally every single one of these problems can be circumvented via regulatory reform and public investment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Okay Mr. Shitposter.

    The availability of housing is primarily limited in most cases not by space, but by cost. Cost of building, cost of maintenance, cost of transportation, cost of infrastructure etc. The limitations on availability are mostly artificial.

    Availability of housing and occupancy rates aren't synonymous. The placement of the housing is further limited by access to things like public transportation (aka, can I get to work from where I live in a timely fashion) which in turn are reliant on public investment, which is often not allocated based on equally or according to the actual needs of the market (lower income neighborhoods often don't get train stations, metro lines, highway access etc).

    Even in the most extreme scenarios where space is a limiting factor like Hong Kong, the limiting factor is artificial (the border with China, that is an actual border).

    Literally every single one of these problems can be circumvented via regulatory reform and public investment.
    Alright Sr. Grande Arrogante, so at least you are not denying there is plenty of limiting factors, and as always these factors can be reduced to just one meta factor of monetary cost. What is deeply disappointing is that you want to make this a public burden, meant equally distribute the cost to the people 99,9% of these are never going to live there or even visit the place. Radical decision like that, for sure, requires some sort of plebiscite and on that plebiscite majority of these 99,9% will undoubtfully tell you to please fuck off and pay for your neat gentry place in one of first world's capital by yourself and will be damn right with that answer.

    Not to say that as a citizen of country, where these problems were once circumvented via regulatory reform and public investment, people had to wait for decades to have their own apartment, and had just one offer, yet have they decline that, they'd have been put back in the beginning of the queue. But of course, if you are still willing to live in such socialistic haven you are free to immigrate to North Korea any time.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by kasuke06 View Post
    "I demand you look out for my best interests and not your own!"

    That's what this is boiling down to from what it looks like. Renters want to live in a posh area while paying low rent, landlords want to renovate the property that they own to attract greater amounts of money from the more skilled labor force that's arriving in town every day. So who's problem is it?
    It's everyone's problem. We just need to look at the projects in the US to figure out what we don't want. See, that's where those people end up in. How's it going for you guys? This blind religion of ultra capitalism?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by aeuhe4yxzhds View Post
    Immigration = more people = higher rent

    not that hard to think about it logically
    This isn't about immigration. Germany has no problem with immigration at this stage. Unemployment is still low, we're just coming out of a major boom phase and the coffers are full to the brim. Also, immigrants aren't driving the prices up in Berlin, it's the new businesses setting up shop in the new (old) Capital. Berlin has just about finished renovating itself from a divided city into the Capital it used to be.

    Bloody racists...
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.

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