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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Alright Sr. Grande Arrogante, so at least you are not denying there is plenty of limiting factors, and as always these factors can be reduced to just one meta factor of monetary cost. What is deeply disappointing is that you want to make this a public burden, meant equally distribute the cost to the people 99,9% of these are never going to live there or even visit the place. Radical decision like that, for sure, requires some sort of plebiscite and on that plebiscite majority of these 99,9% will undoubtfully tell you to please fuck off and pay for your neat gentry place in one of first world's capital by yourself and will be damn right with that answer.

    Not to say that as a citizen of country, where these problems were once circumvented via regulatory reform and public investment, people had to wait for decades to have their own apartment, and had just one offer, yet have they decline that, they'd have been put back in the beginning of the queue. But of course, if you are still willing to live in such socialistic haven you are free to immigrate to North Korea any time.
    Oh cupcake. Yes, yes. Tell us more about the big bad USSR. You are moving goal posts and strawmaning.

    The idiotic rant about plebiscites and whatnot has not a single fucking thing to do with anything. So we are ignoring that one.

    I don't want to make it a public burden, this is where you are strawmaning. You either don't understand what I am talking about, which is a possibility, or you are just continuing with the shitposts, which is also a possibility. I'm not really sure which one are you doing, and frankly it doesn't really matter.

    99.99% whatever will agree on that basic principle that housing is both a right and a necessity.

    Public ownership of housing is not a necessity for accessible housing. Limiting market speculation via things like variable sales tax rates depending on number of properties owned, length of time property was owned, who is it being sold to, where the property is located, limiting length of mortgages, regulating the mortgage market, restricting investment companies and investment banks from holding housing assets unoccupied (sell it or rent it in X amount of time or lose it).

    Encouraging real estate development via tax breaks and encourage the development of affordable housing via public subventions, variable tax rates, land grants.

    Distributing public infrastructure spending based on actual need rather than on crony capitalist handouts.

    The predominant tendency for the past 3 or 4 decades have been a move away from regulation, hoping that somehow the market will without intervention meet the public need, what we ended up with instead is market speculation, unaffordable housing, unequal distribution of public funding and services hogged up by the upper end of the market and the externalization of the financial risk from speculators onto the state and by extension the tax payer.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2019-05-06 at 12:44 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    It's everyone's problem. We just need to look at the projects in the US to figure out what we don't want. See, that's where those people end up in. How's it going for you guys? This blind religion of ultra capitalism?
    Pretty damn good thanks, How's importing the third world going? lost any friends or family to truck attack recently? Maybe had a close friend assaulted and the cops look the other way because of "cultural differences"?

    If you rent, it's not your property. The owner can decide what to do with it as defined by the contractual agreement they made. Or are you of the "fuck those people because they have more than me and I'm an envious little sack of greed" people?
    O Flora, of the moon, of the dream. O Little ones, O fleeting will of the ancients. Let the hunter be safe. Let them find comfort. And let this dream, their captor, Foretell a pleasant awakening

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by kasuke06 View Post
    Pretty damn good thanks, How's importing the third world going? lost any friends or family to truck attack recently? Maybe had a close friend assaulted and the cops look the other way because of "cultural differences"?

    If you rent, it's not your property. The owner can decide what to do with it as defined by the contractual agreement they made. Or are you of the "fuck those people because they have more than me and I'm an envious little sack of greed" people?
    Aand here we go again. Another American that conveniently forgot his country is responsible for the refugee stream to begin with. You've got quite the guts to call us out for cleaning up your shit after you.

    As for friends and family, they're fine. Despite popular belief in the US, we are not overrun by terrorists. And the few terrorists that commited crimes here are homegrown and their death toll is much less than the mass shooting murder rate in the US.

    Article 14 of the German constitution, by the way, grants you the right to own property. It also obliges you to use it for the benefit of the community. So, while I do appreciate that you like to live in your personal fantasy of the wild west, how about you don't comment on stuff you don't know anything about?

    Fascist reference incoming in 3, 2, 1...
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by KevyB View Post
    Your uneducated ignorance is cute, yet completely irrelevant.

    Again, this has everything to do with giving away real estate to immigration programs, just because your tiny mind cannot comprehend bigger scales doesn't mean it's not there.
    This is the winner of my "Biggest pile of horseshit this month" award.

    Well done, quite hard to win such a prize, especially on these forums as there is a LOT of competition.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by natpick View Post
    same problem in the uk,falling house prices attract people with savings and then there rent them out for double or treble the mortgage would be,i know 2 people who have 5 properties each and do this. its legal but scummy and not fair on low income workers.
    The main issue that caused it in the first place though, was Thatcher's "Right to Buy" horseshit policy to raise money for the Government.

    You had families buying up properties for practically pittance, which sounds great in theory. Until you discover many of their children would then take said house, and sell it for 10x the amount if not more in many cases, thus not only removing social housing from the system, but pricing it out of the range of many.
    Many then used said funds to buy ramshackle houses, then develop them, and then sell/rent them for huge prices. Basically, again removing cheap,. cost effective housing from the market (these houses could have been developed by local authorities to grant more social housing etc).

    Basically, nothing illegal, but just people looking out for themselves and their immediate needs > everyone else. Humanity at its finest (and will deffo have people rant about "but smart business sense!", which it is, but doesn't stop it being a scummy thing to do when you didn't really *earn* the initial outlay in the first place).

  5. #45
    If you rent you don't really get to complain if the person who actually owns the apartment wants to renovate it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    I get it on some level.

    I won't pretend I don't. As a matter of fact AirBnBs tend to be able to be both more cozy (you can cook, have all the commodities of your home) and often more affordable than hotels in the same price range. ESPECIALLY in big and touristy cities.

    I usually try to avoid using them, except for rural houses. If I am going somewhere away from the big city I prefer to rent a small house in a small village somewhere and such.

    The problem isn't inherently with the concept, but with the utter and total lack of regulation and AirBnBs blatant disregard for existing regulation. As AirBnB as a platform doesn't give a fuck, it doesn't matter what local ordinances might be put in place, it turns into this dumb whack-a-mole where authorities have to chase apartments around and try to enforce the rules locally and individually. Which as you might guess is fucking impossible in a city like Madrid, Barcelona, London, Berlin, New York, Los Angeles. Almost no local authority has the man power to deal with this and even trying it would overload the court systems with suits and countersuits.

    - - - Updated - - -



    We are all still waiting on that citation where you'll educate us.

    If it is not coming then again...STFU and GTFO. "Aight?"sic
    Air BnB renters are 90% crazy. I was looking for a place to stay couple of years ago in a big city, and all of the listing for apartments had some variation of "we are vegans so please don't cook meat or eggs in the apartment while you stay". ***** I cook what I want if I pay for the place.


    Edit. The irony of my statements here is not lost on me.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Yet it isn't the issue. Homes aren't a finite resource. We can and do build more. And more importantly immigrants (the type you are referring to) don't actually drive property prices up, especially not in areas that are already expensive. Your average economic migrant will not move into a 3 bedroom apartment in downtown Berlin/Madrid/Barcelona/London/L.A/San Francisco.

    On the short term they will first fill the very lowest end of the real estate market and on the medium term drive new real estate development for low and median income families.

    The problem discussed in this thread is utterly unrelated to immigration in the sense you are thinking. Now, talking about Russian/Saudi/Chinese millionaires buying property in bulk in Western cities as an investment/tax dodge from their own governments and how that affects the market is entirely different discussion, that plagues some cities but again, it isn't an immigration problem and there as an easy fix for that.
    Sadly in germany the state will pay the rent if you´re not able to, and ofc many exploit that in the case of immigrants so he´s not that wrong.

  7. #47
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    I bought a house about 11 years ago... it had cost me about 250.000 Euro... just this weekend I saw a ad for a flat a few streets away from us. Our house has 7 rooms, a large garden, a garage and a large cellar. That flat has 3 rooms, surely a storage compartment in the cellar and a balcony. But that flat was advertised for 360.000 Euros.

    Even a decade of time doesn't justify that kind of price. That's just pure greed. And for a neccessity like a place to live, that should not be allowed.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Tabrotar View Post
    Sadly in germany the state will pay the rent if you´re not able to, and ofc many exploit that in the case of immigrants so he´s not that wrong.
    Citation needed. I'm not saying this maliciously.

    Show me how immigration adds to property costs, and how the state gives money to immigrants driving real estate prices up, and I'll incorporate that into my views on real estate price hikes.

    Show it to me, don't just make sweeping claims.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2019-05-06 at 11:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  9. #49
    Over 9000! Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    I think we need laws passed to limit what property can or cannot be rented, and there needs to be government regulation on how much you can be charged for rent. Especially houses that are bought to rent as that makes no sense other than to suck people out of their money. If you don't actively live in that home then you shouldn't be renting it out, in which case either sell it or enjoy owning a empty home.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    I think we need laws passed to limit what property can or cannot be rented, and there needs to be government regulation on how much you can be charged for rent. Especially houses that are bought to rent as that makes no sense other than to suck people out of their money. If you don't actively live in that home then you shouldn't be renting it out, in which case either sell it or enjoy owning a empty home.
    Artificially restricting supply is not a solution. We already have a tendency where institutional and private investors buy up real estate as equity, with no intention to rent it or use it, with the intention to sell it somewhere down the road. Many major cities with very high population densities have countless homes sitting empty, just as a dollar value on the books of some bank or investment company.

    There is nothing inherently wrong with rent seeking, it is a relatively easy form of investment that requires little hands on attention, offers stable returns and creates real estate for the market. The problems emerge when the rent seekers aren't honest actors (which can be solved by regulation and rent control) and when real estate is treated simply as a static investment asset (no intention to rent it, just to sit on it for X amount of time then resell), this second thing needs to completely eliminated, and this can be done easily with a variable sales tax.

    If you own multiple homes you are ought to pay progressively higher sales tax on each of them. The amount needs to vary depending on the nature of the properties.

    Are they second residences (summer home, beach house, rural cabin)? Are they rented out? When was the last time someone lived in it? How long have you had it (flippers need to be totally excluded from the market by adding a massive sales tax to re-sellers who held the property for less than X years)?

    Basically rent controls and the elimination of speculators would bring the market in line. Rent seeking would still exist as an honest, stable, low returns business model and long term real estate asset investment would still be a thing while excluding speculators from the market.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2019-05-06 at 02:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Aand here we go again. Another American that conveniently forgot his country is responsible for the refugee stream to begin with. You've got quite the guts to call us out for cleaning up your shit after you.

    As for friends and family, they're fine. Despite popular belief in the US, we are not overrun by terrorists. And the few terrorists that commited crimes here are homegrown and their death toll is much less than the mass shooting murder rate in the US.

    Article 14 of the German constitution, by the way, grants you the right to own property. It also obliges you to use it for the benefit of the community. So, while I do appreciate that you like to live in your personal fantasy of the wild west, how about you don't comment on stuff you don't know anything about?

    Fascist reference incoming in 3, 2, 1...
    Hey, I'm just glad the eurotrash is so damn happy to call us out while still crashing on our couch. Who's muscle keeps the Russians from kicking your door down again? Hint: Our military doesn't wield broomsticks.

    It is always funny that America gets all the blame for literally everything that has ever happened, especially the flood of refugees (also the large number of it that is economic migrants abusing your system.) What's next, going to blame us for Israel not really helping in the area? Or your own arms manufacturers selling to the cartels in mexico?

    I love how you live in your little fantasy where everyone in Europe is a perfect wonderful example of humanity while America is literally the devil. Insult about fat bastards coming in 3, 2, 1...
    O Flora, of the moon, of the dream. O Little ones, O fleeting will of the ancients. Let the hunter be safe. Let them find comfort. And let this dream, their captor, Foretell a pleasant awakening

  12. #52
    Over 9000! Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Artificially restricting supply is not a solution. We already have a tendency where institutional and private investors buy up real estate as equity, with no intention to rent it or use it, with the intention to sell it somewhere down the road. Many major cities with very high population densities have countless homes sitting empty, just as a dollar value on the books of some bank or investment company.
    I don't see any better solution. I wouldn't be restricting supply since that's what those who buy homes to rent are doing. If they can't rent it out then they have no choice but to sell it. I'd rather have home buyers not home renters.
    If you own multiple homes you are ought to pay progressively higher sales tax on each of them. The amount needs to vary depending on the nature of the properties.
    Doesn't sound much different than what I'm proposing.
    Are they second residences (summer home, beach house, rural cabin)? Are they rented out? When was the last time someone lived in it? How long have you had it (flippers need to be totally excluded from the market by adding a massive sales tax to re-sellers who held the property for less than X years)?
    As long as they aren't renting them out then it's fine. You can own your summer home without worry so long as you can pay for it. And yes, I'm for taxing those who own second or more homes.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Alright so I didn't grasp the point of complainers there, sorry for that. So apparently their point is not that they have nowhere to go because prices are high, but that they don't want to go anywhere from where they are at and want landlords to STFU and take as much money as whey are willing to offer and nothing more regardless of that the demand is high and there are customers willing to pay way more for same apartments. And when it's legally impossible they want the Government to step in and take away those baddies capitalists' property, right?

    Good thing they aren't yet considering capital punishment as a way of expropriation just like real hardcore commies did it back then, and high buy-out price is stopping them for now
    Yes you are 100% correct here. Most migrants move to the big cities and that makes the housing problem much more severe. Plus they (same as the unemployed) get their rent payed by the state so they are attractive for landlords since they can demand a high rent if the median in the city is high and the rent is save every month since the state is paying.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Yes you are 100% correct here. Most migrants move to the big cities and that makes the housing problem much more severe. Plus they (same as the unemployed) get their rent payed by the state so they are attractive for landlords since they can demand a high rent if the median in the city is high and the rent is save every month since the state is paying.
    Migrants don't get anything paid for by the state.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by kasuke06 View Post
    Hey, I'm just glad the eurotrash is so damn happy to call us out while still crashing on our couch. Who's muscle keeps the Russians from kicking your door down again? Hint: Our military doesn't wield broomsticks.
    Suuuure, it's your big strong muscles that keep those blood thirsty war mongers at bay. Not the myriads of economic dependencies. Also: Who again was it that started a good majority of the world's recent wars? Somehow it is not Russia that comes to mind here. I've got nothing buy pity for dumb fools like you.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Girighet View Post
    Migrants don't get anything paid for by the state.
    Of course they do.

  17. #57
    So immigrants have to pay that rent or not?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Of course they do.
    No, they don't. Are you telling me I could move to Germany and have them pay for my living costs? I think not.

  19. #59
    All these cities across the world with bad rent problems are all saying essentially the same thing: "We're full, go look elsewhere."

    People don't, and have a strong desire to live there regardless, so they suck it up and pay whatever it takes to take someone else's spot. Why they don't just take the hint and move on is beyond me. Sounds like it's working as intended.

    "But all the jerbs are there!" If people stopped moving to those cities and, gasp, started another city, guess where those jobs would be!?

    Self inflicted wounds that people think they are entitled to live where they want and get the lifestyle they chose.
    Last edited by BeepBoo; 2019-05-06 at 03:47 PM.

  20. #60
    The Patient Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Girighet View Post
    No, they don't. Are you telling me I could move to Germany and have them pay for my living costs? I think not.
    If you pretend to be a refugee while having nothing but African/Arabian appearance as a proof, then sure

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