Germans up in arms over 'rent insanity'

[kamuimac]

This happening depends a lot on if there even is any land left for large scale development, which isn't always the case in Germany. For Berlin, yeah mostly, but if you look at NRW or the city states, there really isn't too much left. And even then, you're still adding substancial costs for commutes (and also public cost because of the required new infrastructure) and subtract from people's lives because they now have to travel often over 2h per day for work.
I have also noticed that newly developed plots tend to also mostly cater to the higher-middle class, providing mostly "nice" smaller 1-2 family homes at prices that are still unreachable for the demographic that is hit most by this development.
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the the last time i was in Berlin was many years ago but i rememebr how "spread" that city was when i was driving through it.

i find it really hard to belive that developers wouldnt find good spots on the outskirts of town if it means also moving other infrastructure there .

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I didn't mean it in such a way. I meant sometimes you need to think outside the box to discover a viable solution to a problem. You can't just go with the same old methods of the past and assume things will work out. You can't try using 20th century solutions to a 21st century problem.

this is not a 21st century problem though .

do you know how USA was build ? people who couldnt afford living in European countries moved to "wild" country to start living there.

the general principle is the same - if you cannot afford living in X neighborhood move out to Y where life is 50-70% cheaper.

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So you do support the "bad option" as long as it isn't you? Shouldn't you incentivise your tennants to buy that property from you instead?
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ok to counter this.

literaly typed "apartments for sale Berlin" into google.

first page apartments up from 30 square meters starting with prices of 180k euro . then apartments 42 square meters start from 300k (from my experience apartments of +/-50sqm are the most popular on market at least in my city )

and this is through official sales agency .

i bet you that if i really looked for aparment i would find one 42-45 Sqm for 250-260k.

is it a lot of money ? yes ofc it is - but dont tell me that family of 2 wont be able to get credit for 30 years like this if they both work .

ye sure its not in city centre. but dont tell me bs about apartments starting from 500k .

unless you mean apartments like :

3 rooms , 92 sqm - 580k - but thats 92 sqm -_-

https://ziegert-immobilien.de/en/apa...xoCcP8QAvD_BwE

thats the source - literaly irst out of many pages in google

[Independent voter]

Sounds like capitalism.

If capitalism were allowed to run free, some enterprising person would build more apartments.

Is government regulation preventing enterprising people from building more apartments? I bet it is.

[Slant]

The article and this thread is about the marches scheduled on Saturday against the rise of rent prices.

Ah, a troll! Ok I did not know! I took the bait! Well played troll!

Those marches are not because of immigrants, they are because of rising rent prices. Your connection that rising rent prices is due to immigration is a complete fabrication of your fantasy.

[BeepBoo]

And in the wake of it you produce severe unemployment (because there aren't that many "simple" jobs outside the cities) and put businesses at peril that can't afford the wages to hold their staff. You're just shifting the problem towards slightly different symptoms instead of solving the cause, and drag down a considerable portion of the population with it. That's how you get crime, protests and desparate people, not how to make cities livable for everyone.

Cities don't inherently need to be livable for everyone and populations need to be able to freely form and morph just like any other resource that has supply/demand. That's what we have cops for. Or why we just abandon certain areas and let them turn to crap (baltimore, detroit, etc). Nothing wrong with letting a thing run it's course. The people who are strong adapt and overcome. The people who are weak do what they always have done: get reamed and taken advantage of because they allow themselves to be.

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Yes, theoretical that would work. But that would be a process that takes too long for an individual. If hundreds of people in the service industry would quit their job and move, they would just be someplace else with no job. Would you sacrifice everything to make such a process work?

No such thing as "too slow." Any time supply and demand shifts around the "people resource" there is strife in some way, shape, or form. Population goes down suddenly? Everyone's value goes up, but lots of services are unfilled and those areas suffer. Population booms? Lots of services for cheap prices spring up, but the pleb gets taken advantage of because they have no comparative value in the eye of society because a literal monkey could do their job and there are 10 more waiting to take their place if they get upset.

Will always be suffering of some kind around this issue. The "fix" isn't what you think it is. It's to let it run its course because literally every time gov't has gotten involved with stuff like this, they've made it worse or pushed the problem off into the future where it is inevitably magnified. Eventually, someone will call us on our debt and we won't be able to leverage any more and we'll be faced to deal with the future we've been borrowing from to prop up smaller failures of the present.

[Vash The Stampede]

Sounds like capitalism.

If capitalism were allowed to run free, some enterprising person would build more apartments.

Is government regulation preventing enterprising people from building more apartments? I bet it is.

If the government is preventing them from building apartments it's because the community didn't want them. Also from what I hear a lot of builders have stopped building due to the lack of loans being given out. Banks are more careful to avoid giving out bad loans.

[d00mGuArD]

Those marches are not because of immigrants, they are because of rising rent prices. Your connection that rising rent prices is due to immigration is a complete fabrication of your fantasy.

Let's go again then
The rent prices increase because of "people" moving to the cities. I quoted the article that says "influx of workers to the cities". German people don't like that increase and they have scheduled marches.
You claimed it is only Germans that are moving to cities, I asked for source, and you changed the subject to "what marches, there are no marches"... in a thread that is about those marches! Clearly trolling... or you don't have source for your claim, and you tried to change subject.

The thing is we can break down the problem like this:
1) Germans moving to cities, increasing the demand for housing, and the prices
2) Immigrants moving to the cities, increasing the demand for housing, and the prices
3) more and more people realize buying property in 1st world major cities is a big investment, all over the world, increasing demand for housing, and the prices.

Claiming immigrants have nothing to do with it, is dishonest.
Immigrants ARE moving to German cities, and increase the rent, (just like the locals are moving to their cities, and increase the rent)

Hard to grasp I know!

For example in 2017 alone Germany got 800.000 immigrants. I can make an educated guess, without having data, that hundreds of thousands of them, went to the cities, increasing the demand for housing. And that is for one year alone. Multiply it for more years, and we are talking about huge numbers. How can you claim they will not affect prices, is beyond me!

[Naramag]

Depends on the type of immigrant. If you simply move to Germany to work here, you're free to go where you want, if you have the work permission. If you are a refugee, like the syrian "immigrants", you will be told were to move. You don't choose.

Sadly, the right wing doesn't care if you are a refugee, a legal or illegal immigrant. For them, no matter what you are, all they see is a foreigner that supposedly threatens their way of life.

And the protest marches that are undergoing here at the moment are not about immigration. It is about the greed of those who speculate with something essential to life. We are lucky that things like water and air isn't something people can speculate on...

Sounds like capitalism.

If capitalism were allowed to run free, some enterprising person would build more apartments.

Is government regulation preventing enterprising people from building more apartments? I bet it is.

Actually, in my hometown the local government actually prevented an enterprise from buying an appartment complex. Because this enterprise was known to buy cheap appartment houses, renovate it in a way that they can charge rents far higher then the local standard.
About a quarter million of people would have ended on the street without the intervention of the government. These people couldn't afford their appartments after planned renovations. It was not that the building would be fixed... the plan was to turn low class appartments into luxury appartments. Nobody would be forced to leave of course... they just need to pay double or triple the former rent.

[Slant]

Let's go again then
The rent prices increase because of "people" moving to the cities. I quoted the article that says "influx of workers to the cities". German people don't like that increase and they have scheduled marches.
You claimed it is only Germans that are moving to cities, I asked for source, and you changed the subject to "what marches, there are no marches"... in a thread that is about those marches! Clearly trolling... or you don't have source for your claim, and you tried to change subject.

The thing is we can break down the problem like this:
1) Germans moving to cities, increasing the demand for housing, and the prices
2) Immigrants moving to the cities, increasing the demand for housing, and the prices
3) more and more people realize buying property in 1st world major cities is a big investment, all over the world, increasing demand for housing, and the prices.

Claiming immigrants have nothing to do with it, is dishonest.
Immigrants ARE moving to German cities, and increase the rent, (just like the locals are moving to their cities, and increase the rent)

Hard to grasp I know!

For example in 2017 alone Germany got 800.000 immigrants. I can make an educated guess, without having data, that hundreds of thousands of them, went to the cities, increasing the demand for housing. And that is for one year alone. Multiply it for more years, and we are talking about huge numbers. How can you claim they will not affect prices, is beyond me!

This is your original quote:

The article clearly states, and I quote "as Germany's booming job market attracts an influx of workers, putting pressure on the housing market"
Sure, there are some more, smaller reasons.

Maybe a rich guy bought 5 houses... vs... Maybe 1 million new people need a place to live.

With 1 million "new people", you're obviously referring to the 1 million refugees. And as a true nazi, a refugee = immigrant, because that makes it easier to argue against all immigrants. You're lying about your premise, of course. But let's talk about refugees. They don't live in the city core. They have no money, they can't afford any rent. They get a pitiful allowance to buy little things, that's it. They are assigned quarters that already exist, usually on the outskirts of cities. They don't drive the rental market prices up. They are utterly irrelevant to the rental market. Additionally, 1 million refugees got spread out over Germany. You're mindnumbingly obvious attempt to pretend that Berlin has an influx of 1 million refugees is ridiculously stupid on such colossal scale that any further attempt to talk with you about this would get me an automatic infraction on this badly moderated piece of shit board. But hey, rest assured that nazis like you get all the protection they can get. So continue with your drivel.

Reiterating what I said in 1) doesn't make your nazi propaganda more true. And I never contested 3), which is also common knowledge.

As for Germans moving to Berlin, it is common knowledge. Big companies like Axel Springer, only the largest print newspaper publisher in Europe, have moved from Hamburg to Berlin, dragging a lot of advertising companies and new media with them. Startups find Berlin to be good and fertile ground with the reputation of being the city to be in for creative minds.

But that won't stop nazis from derailing any thread they can find to make it about refugees, REFUGEES not immigrants. Learn the fucking difference. And of course you're making an "educated guess without data", because there is no data supporting your idiotic notion that immigrants drive up rental prices. The property speculation problem has existed for over a decade. It's nothing new. Stop making shit up.

[scart35]

maybe its time to move out to cheaper part of town if you cannot afford living where you live.

and im not being a dick - if you cannot afford something dont pretend that you can loossing a lot of money in process.

what i see in a lot of European countries is that people desperatly migrate to huge cities and then complain they cannot afford life there . maybe instead migrating to cities that have 1-2 mln citizens look for jobs in cities that have 200-300k citizens - as life is usually much cheaper there.

yes it wont be a place of your dreams but be more realistic if your job is not in high demand you need to settle down instead chasing unreachable things.

Yeah... about that... The difference between outskirts and broader city centre is like 200€ for 3 room apartment so it's fine for me, I do pay for luxury of living near my work but I'm not worried about myself. But others that are not so fortunate. For most of the families 800€ is their whole month worth budget.

[Hilhen7]

The problem is simple.

Normally a supplier passes on there higher costs to their customers.
Unfortunately employees usually don't get raises when their costs go up. (Employees are suppliers of labor)

[d00mGuArD]

This is your original quote:



With 1 million "new people", you're obviously referring to the 1 million refugees.

No I am not. You made that up. I never used the word refugees. You are lying.
I specifically said "immigrants".
Every other crap you tell me, based on your lie that I talk about refugees, is irrelevant since it is a lie. I am NOT talking about refugees. "Learn the fucking difference"

The official number for 2017 is a bit more than 900k immigrants. 400k of which are from EU members
Immigrants. Yes, IMMIGRANTS. "Learn the fucking difference"




source: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...cache/1275.pdf



If you add more years, since housing prices are rising over many years, we are talking about MANY millions
And from those 900k immigrants, MANY went to the cities. Hundreds of thousands like I said.

Your claim that hundreds of thousands of immigrants PER YEAR, many of which are going to cities, are not increasing rent prices, is still a lie. I am waiting for your sources.

P.S. I never said they all go to Berlin, that is another of your lies. I always said "cities". Feel free to quote me where I said Berlin.

[Hilhen7]

No I am not. You made that up. I never used the word refugees. You are lying.
I specifically said "immigrants".
Every other crap you tell me, based on your lie that I talk about refugees, is irrelevant since it is a lie. I am NOT talking about refugees. "Learn the fucking difference"

The official number for 2017 is a bit more than 900k immigrants. 400k of which are from EU members
Immigrants. Yes, IMMIGRANTS. "Learn the fucking difference"




source: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...cache/1275.pdf


If you add more years, since housing prices are rising over many years, we are talking about MANY millions
And from those 900k immigrants, MANY went to the cities. Hundreds of thousands like I said.

Your claim that hundreds of thousands of immigrants PER YEAR, many of which are going to cities, are not increasing rent prices, is still a lie. I am waiting for your sources.

P.S. I never said they all go to Berlin, that is another of your lies. I always said "cities". Feel free to quote me where I said Berlin.

How do the immigrants afford to pay the increased rent?

[Ashina]

Just a bit longer, the European housing market is going to come crashing down really soon. Even in my small city of 180.000 inhabitants a standard 2 bedroom house/apartment is already in the range of 300-400k. And I don’t even live in a central location or anywhere near Brussels.

The cost of renting or buying is increasing at a ridiculous pace compared to the average salary. The share of wallet that goes to rent/mortgage has been increasing for years now. Moving to sparsely populated areas outside of the city isn’t relevant for Belgians: all space comes at a premium in a densely populated region like Flanders.

I still rent an apartment in the city center and have seen my rent skyrocket. Most rentals in a 10km radius have followed suit, these real estate agencies aren’t retards.



Immigration is only a tiny variable in all of this. We don’t have to pretend it doesn’t matter, it does, but to claim it’s the sole reason why the European housing market as a whole is ready to burst is just a xenophobic delusion.
The trend of increasing housing cost has been going on since the end of the 90s, before mass immigration impacted Europe.

[Eggroll]

"I demand you look out for my best interests and not your own!"

That's what this is boiling down to from what it looks like. Renters want to live in a posh area while paying low rent, landlords want to renovate the property that they own to attract greater amounts of money from the more skilled labor force that's arriving in town every day. So who's problem is it?

You don't have a clue what you are talking about, have you?

[d00mGuArD]

How do the immigrants afford to pay the increased rent?

I don't have the data for this, but obviously, since there is not millions of homeless immigrants on the streets, they do.

[prwraith]

We need to have a similar housing riot in america. Rent here is insane. I'm paying 1100 USD for a 1 bedroom apartment and I'm not even in a big city.

[Pooti]

The cost of renting over owning. If you owned the place you lived then when the value goes up it is yours. There are negatives to ownership as well, and there are upsides to renting, of course.

[prwraith]

I'm paying like $500 for a 2 room 60 sqm apartment.

I'd die for that, literally. I'd save so much money every month lol.

[kamuimac]

How do the immigrants afford to pay the increased rent?

they work . thats the main secret behind their "succes"

good times make people weak and lazy - thats why they rather sit in office and type in excle sheets , earn 1800-2000 euro and complain they cannot afford anythign rather then start working in construction , get proper experience/papers and then earn 2500-3000 euro per month + overhours . or spend few years learning programming and earn 3000-5000 (depending on experience).

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You need to fork out ~1000€/month to cover a 300k loan over about 30 years with the current really low interest rates. Assuming a reasonable 12€/m² for a 42m² place, you end up at HALF of that. Just willy nilly adding 500€ to their monthly expenses just isn't something probably way over 90% of the German population could do. Especially if you're not 20 anymore.


Young capable double eraning families aren't those hit the worst by this. And that constellation is in decline anyways. Those impacted worst are the poor older singles that already live in tiny appartments because they once were the affordable solution. Especially urban ones because you then also could avoid having to own a car. it is the already weak ones that get the short end of the stick. Somehow these don't exist in your world.

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i would like to focus on this part especially . this is something which a lot of people dont realise , because they live in such good times .

historically people nearly never married because of artificial concepts like "love" . people married because that ensure their lives to be better.

if someone chooses "single" lifestyle he has only himself/herself to blame for the state in which they live.

because of how good the economy in EU was in past 50 years younger generations no longer realise that and their parents forgot to teach them that. (ye i know i sound old).

they dont even have to technically marry - they just should focus on finding a partner and moving in together to make their lives easier.

you say 1000 euro mortgage vs 500 euro rent - well guess what you would have if you combined 2 people each paying 500 euro per month as rent.

with this ill go back to my main point - if someone is poor he shouldnt pretend to live the life of wealthy person .

simple as that

[kamuimac]

Strange. I'd consider worldly pressures to be the artificial incentives to marry, and love to be the natural one. To me, your understanding of this matter looks rather confused.


Old women whose husband died, or young people that simply haven't found a person they'd be okay sharing their life with did certainly choose the single "lifestyle", ooookay.


I say that 42m² are more often than not already occupied by two people and they already don't have 500€ to spare. I'm getting the impression that you were born with the silver spoon in your mouth, or at least have forgotten what the financial situation of the common person can be like because of your own success.


And I don't consider being able to live in a small appartment in a city a marker of "wealthy". This should be base line in the country, the way it is structured these days.

what exacly should be "baseline" ? - having nearly 100 sqm in capital city in "nice area" ?

pls get down to earth - because you seem to be living in artificial bubble.

germany has how many dozens of towns to live in ? why should everyones right was to be living in 1 or 2 particular cities.

if you cannot afford to live in city X then look for work and place to live in in city Y .

and about my "succes" - dont make me laugh - i worked harder then anyone i know and learned a lot more then anyone of my friends to be where i am at now.

anyone can achieve succes in life - most people are simply to lazy to use tools that modern schools and modern technology offers them .

let me ask you simple question - how many books have you read last year that are not just a sf/fantasy/criminal etc to kill time. or how many sceintific articles do you read per month. (and no i dont mean jurnalistic summaries that some web pages use) im very curious what your answer will be.