Germans up in arms over 'rent insanity'

[Tabrotar]

Yet it isn't the issue. Homes aren't a finite resource. We can and do build more. And more importantly immigrants (the type you are referring to) don't actually drive property prices up, especially not in areas that are already expensive. Your average economic migrant will not move into a 3 bedroom apartment in downtown Berlin/Madrid/Barcelona/London/L.A/San Francisco.

On the short term they will first fill the very lowest end of the real estate market and on the medium term drive new real estate development for low and median income families.

The problem discussed in this thread is utterly unrelated to immigration in the sense you are thinking. Now, talking about Russian/Saudi/Chinese millionaires buying property in bulk in Western cities as an investment/tax dodge from their own governments and how that affects the market is entirely different discussion, that plagues some cities but again, it isn't an immigration problem and there as an easy fix for that.

Sadly in germany the state will pay the rent if you´re not able to, and ofc many exploit that in the case of immigrants so he´s not that wrong.

[Naramag]

I bought a house about 11 years ago... it had cost me about 250.000 Euro... just this weekend I saw a ad for a flat a few streets away from us. Our house has 7 rooms, a large garden, a garage and a large cellar. That flat has 3 rooms, surely a storage compartment in the cellar and a balcony. But that flat was advertised for 360.000 Euros.

Even a decade of time doesn't justify that kind of price. That's just pure greed. And for a neccessity like a place to live, that should not be allowed.

[Mihalik]

Sadly in germany the state will pay the rent if you´re not able to, and ofc many exploit that in the case of immigrants so he´s not that wrong.

Citation needed. I'm not saying this maliciously.

Show me how immigration adds to property costs, and how the state gives money to immigrants driving real estate prices up, and I'll incorporate that into my views on real estate price hikes.

Show it to me, don't just make sweeping claims.

[Vash The Stampede]

I think we need laws passed to limit what property can or cannot be rented, and there needs to be government regulation on how much you can be charged for rent. Especially houses that are bought to rent as that makes no sense other than to suck people out of their money. If you don't actively live in that home then you shouldn't be renting it out, in which case either sell it or enjoy owning a empty home.

[Mihalik]

I think we need laws passed to limit what property can or cannot be rented, and there needs to be government regulation on how much you can be charged for rent. Especially houses that are bought to rent as that makes no sense other than to suck people out of their money. If you don't actively live in that home then you shouldn't be renting it out, in which case either sell it or enjoy owning a empty home.

Artificially restricting supply is not a solution. We already have a tendency where institutional and private investors buy up real estate as equity, with no intention to rent it or use it, with the intention to sell it somewhere down the road. Many major cities with very high population densities have countless homes sitting empty, just as a dollar value on the books of some bank or investment company.

There is nothing inherently wrong with rent seeking, it is a relatively easy form of investment that requires little hands on attention, offers stable returns and creates real estate for the market. The problems emerge when the rent seekers aren't honest actors (which can be solved by regulation and rent control) and when real estate is treated simply as a static investment asset (no intention to rent it, just to sit on it for X amount of time then resell), this second thing needs to completely eliminated, and this can be done easily with a variable sales tax.

If you own multiple homes you are ought to pay progressively higher sales tax on each of them. The amount needs to vary depending on the nature of the properties.

Are they second residences (summer home, beach house, rural cabin)? Are they rented out? When was the last time someone lived in it? How long have you had it (flippers need to be totally excluded from the market by adding a massive sales tax to re-sellers who held the property for less than X years)?

Basically rent controls and the elimination of speculators would bring the market in line. Rent seeking would still exist as an honest, stable, low returns business model and long term real estate asset investment would still be a thing while excluding speculators from the market.

[kasuke06]

Aand here we go again. Another American that conveniently forgot his country is responsible for the refugee stream to begin with. You've got quite the guts to call us out for cleaning up your shit after you.

As for friends and family, they're fine. Despite popular belief in the US, we are not overrun by terrorists. And the few terrorists that commited crimes here are homegrown and their death toll is much less than the mass shooting murder rate in the US.

Article 14 of the German constitution, by the way, grants you the right to own property. It also obliges you to use it for the benefit of the community. So, while I do appreciate that you like to live in your personal fantasy of the wild west, how about you don't comment on stuff you don't know anything about?

Fascist reference incoming in 3, 2, 1...

Hey, I'm just glad the eurotrash is so damn happy to call us out while still crashing on our couch. Who's muscle keeps the Russians from kicking your door down again? Hint: Our military doesn't wield broomsticks.

It is always funny that America gets all the blame for literally everything that has ever happened, especially the flood of refugees (also the large number of it that is economic migrants abusing your system.) What's next, going to blame us for Israel not really helping in the area? Or your own arms manufacturers selling to the cartels in mexico?

I love how you live in your little fantasy where everyone in Europe is a perfect wonderful example of humanity while America is literally the devil. Insult about fat bastards coming in 3, 2, 1...

[Vash The Stampede]

Artificially restricting supply is not a solution. We already have a tendency where institutional and private investors buy up real estate as equity, with no intention to rent it or use it, with the intention to sell it somewhere down the road. Many major cities with very high population densities have countless homes sitting empty, just as a dollar value on the books of some bank or investment company.

I don't see any better solution. I wouldn't be restricting supply since that's what those who buy homes to rent are doing. If they can't rent it out then they have no choice but to sell it. I'd rather have home buyers not home renters.

If you own multiple homes you are ought to pay progressively higher sales tax on each of them. The amount needs to vary depending on the nature of the properties.

Doesn't sound much different than what I'm proposing.

Are they second residences (summer home, beach house, rural cabin)? Are they rented out? When was the last time someone lived in it? How long have you had it (flippers need to be totally excluded from the market by adding a massive sales tax to re-sellers who held the property for less than X years)?

As long as they aren't renting them out then it's fine. You can own your summer home without worry so long as you can pay for it. And yes, I'm for taxing those who own second or more homes.

[Yriel]

Alright so I didn't grasp the point of complainers there, sorry for that. So apparently their point is not that they have nowhere to go because prices are high, but that they don't want to go anywhere from where they are at and want landlords to STFU and take as much money as whey are willing to offer and nothing more regardless of that the demand is high and there are customers willing to pay way more for same apartments. And when it's legally impossible they want the Government to step in and take away those baddies capitalists' property, right?

Good thing they aren't yet considering capital punishment as a way of expropriation just like real hardcore commies did it back then, and high buy-out price is stopping them for now

Yes you are 100% correct here. Most migrants move to the big cities and that makes the housing problem much more severe. Plus they (same as the unemployed) get their rent payed by the state so they are attractive for landlords since they can demand a high rent if the median in the city is high and the rent is save every month since the state is paying.

[Yriel]

Migrants don't get anything paid for by the state.

Of course they do.

[Bodonius]

So immigrants have to pay that rent or not?

[BeepBoo]

All these cities across the world with bad rent problems are all saying essentially the same thing: "We're full, go look elsewhere."

People don't, and have a strong desire to live there regardless, so they suck it up and pay whatever it takes to take someone else's spot. Why they don't just take the hint and move on is beyond me. Sounds like it's working as intended.

"But all the jerbs are there!" If people stopped moving to those cities and, gasp, started another city, guess where those jobs would be!?

Self inflicted wounds that people think they are entitled to live where they want and get the lifestyle they chose.

[Yadryonych]

No, they don't. Are you telling me I could move to Germany and have them pay for my living costs? I think not.

If you pretend to be a refugee while having nothing but African/Arabian appearance as a proof, then sure

[Slant]

Hey, I'm just glad the eurotrash is so damn happy to call us out while still crashing on our couch. Who's muscle keeps the Russians from kicking your door down again? Hint: Our military doesn't wield broomsticks.

It is always funny that America gets all the blame for literally everything that has ever happened, especially the flood of refugees (also the large number of it that is economic migrants abusing your system.) What's next, going to blame us for Israel not really helping in the area? Or your own arms manufacturers selling to the cartels in mexico?

I love how you live in your little fantasy where everyone in Europe is a perfect wonderful example of humanity while America is literally the devil. Insult about fat bastards coming in 3, 2, 1...

I never called the US evil. I don't generally blame the US for all problems. Certainly not for all of Europe's problems. Which means I'm well aware that Europe isn't perfect. I am, however, rejecting your blind bigotry and pretense that Europe "just invited all dem damn immigrants". And I specifically condemn the US for the unlawful invasion of Iraq that is directly responsible for the power vacuum in Iraq that facilitated the rise of ISIS, who invaded Syria and started the Syrian refugee wave that came through Turkey and then Greece.

There is a direct correlation. And yes, the US damn well is responsible for that. So how about you show some fucking humility, because we're paying for a war we didn't want, didn't start and certainly we're as much victim of ISIS as the US is. Heck, even more, since you got fuck all repercussions from that. Show some respect for innocent Parisians that had to die because YOUR PRESIDENT couldn't stop restoring his family honor. And your military doesn't wield broomsticks? Then why the fuck are you half arsing every single one of your wars, dragging them out and creating more problems than if you actually did use your military properly. Bunch of fucking pussies, want to play war but pull your punch every goddamn time because you're afraid of bad press. Next time you want to play soldier, at least do it right, ffs.

And I'm well aware of the nazi rhetoric that you're using. It's economic migrants really, they're here to exploit the system... that's nazi talk. Just so you're aware.

[I Push Buttons]

1. Move to place everyone else wants to move to.
2. There is only so much housing to go around.
3. ?????
4. "REEEEE THE RENT IS TOO DAMN HIGH! SEIZE THEIR PROPERTY AND RENT IT TO ME CHEAPER!! IMPLEMENT RENT CONTROLS!!! VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!!!"

Every time.

[ranzino]

1. Move to place everyone else wants to move to.
2. There is only so much housing to go around.
3. ?????
4. "REEEEE THE RENT IS TOO DAMN HIGH! SEIZE THEIR PROPERTY AND RENT IT TO ME CHEAPER!! IMPLEMENT RENT CONTROLS!!! VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!!!"

Every time.

you fail, as usual. it is not about fancy places, usually it is just a cheap place at start and it gets expensive over time.

[I Push Buttons]

you fail, as usual. it is not about fancy places, usually it is just a cheap place at start and it gets expensive over time.

Where did I say anything about 'fancy' places?

And to the bold, no shit, that's the point I made...

[jeezusisacasual]

My first job out of school was working as an accounting clerk for a somewhat popular home builder, they valued the space and monetary gains of upper income as more responsible for their bottom line then low income housing or apartments. It makes more sense to make something for the higher incomes then the lower incomes for the time vs profit value. The other aspect no one is talking about is how many people are using housing as a way to work with their retirement accounts since it is also a monthly payment. Speculation needs to be curbed to a degree but how do you limit who can buy what and how much? This sort of thing is not very popular here in Wyoming but when i was in Salt Lake City last month it was wonderful how much better overall the city seemed to be so it has some real trade-offs.

[segara82]

The problem is that after the housing-crash 2007 and following bank-crash 2008 investors went crazy to buy up real-estate (concrete-gold as we call it) since housing is always in demand. Sadly no goverment has done anything to prevent the blatand bloat and excess some banks, funds, corporations and private citizens have done in buying up and hoarding massive amounts of real estate. On average the m²-price in Vienna went up 7-8% per year every year since 2008, greatly exceeding the rise of pay for most people. And Vienna is not the only city where that happened.
We are reaching prices that the average citizen will no longer be able to afford AND spend the required amount to keep up his consumation rate, or simpler:
rent demands an ever bigger share of his paycheck to the detriment of all other avenues of business.
It's another bubble that is about to burst, after only a decade. Get ready for some nasty developements.

[LilSaihah]

Renting over owning is usually a more viable option in densely populated areas.

Evidently not, if you'll be rendered homeless by your landlord letting your lease expire so they can renovate.

[dippinsawse]

This is an inherent problem with cities. You need different classes of people living in the same area so that jobs of different skill can be done. You always need janitors and things like that even if your economy is built around investing and massive corporations. And as the wealth of the area grows the housing value goes up despite still needing lower wealth/skill people being able to live there. And the way housing works in cities means that most people dont have any stake in the housing value where they live which means it only punishes them for their area doing well.