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  1. #1

    Healer doing more dps than 90% of mages on mythic Jaina

    Healer dps (start of the url is missing since i can't post url) : warcraftlogs.com/reports/qJghZ3krn7bxHGV2#fight=23&type=damage-done

    Jaina 90th percentiles for 415-417 ilvl (all ilvl is even more significant but more mages are in this ilvl range) : warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/21#dataset=90&boss=2281&bracket=16

    So yeah, a 412 ilvl rsham can do more dps than most mage of 415-417 ilvl while bringing huge raid cd. People can say that it's one ranking against a lot of mage ranking but if there were as many rsham dpsing than mages rsham best rank would have been even higher.
    This is to me an example among many other about how bad is the game balanced atm. Even for Crudible top 50 world progress some guilds used a rsham doing mostly dps.


    Do you think it's normal ?

    Edit : This post is not comparing a single Resto sham parse against a single mage parse but comparing a single resto shaman parse VS all mage parses.
    And of course the shaman had dps trait and was doing dps. This is also why we can't look at shaman dps stats as fortunately most of the resto shaman still go in raid to do mainly heal and not really care about doing damage. This is just an example among many other of how the game can be imbalance . Igneous Potential trait is the reason of this absurdity but we do not really care, just an example
    Last edited by bloubli; 2019-05-08 at 06:08 PM. Reason: more precision

  2. #2
    I am Murloc! Saucexorzski's Avatar
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    mages were good, so they didn't need redesigns, they needed nerfs. the other classes got the redesigns that work with current raid mechanics. until they redesign mages to fit in the current raid design philosophy they will be underperforming. Its not impossible to do well as a mage, just not probable.
    "It doesn't matter if you believe me or not but common sense doesn't really work here. You're mad, I'm mad. We're all MAD here."

  3. #3
    I still don't get why Warlocks, Hunters, Rogues, and Mages are not the top 4 DPS all of their specs should be top and outdps any class that can tank or heal. If they cannot be top DPS then they have no purpose at all since that is all they can do.

  4. #4
    Weeb Queen Video Games's Avatar
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    Sure mage is stupid poopy garbage right now but I still get taken for ai awww yeee

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    I still don't get why Warlocks, Hunters, Rogues, and Mages are not the top 4 DPS all of their specs should be top and outdps any class that can tank or heal. If they cannot be top DPS then they have no purpose at all since that is all they can do.
    You're gonna love Classic mate. https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Hybrid_Tax

    Also, Warlocks are godtier atm, Hunters and Rogues are mid to high tier depending on spec.
    Meanwhile, Mages scrape the bottom of the barrel, and we've had 0 patches since the big Wildfire nerf back in f***ing January.

    And from what I've seen so far, 0 mentions of Mages in 8.2 patch notes.

    So yeah, everything's fine, move along, nothing to see here.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Araitik View Post
    You're gonna love Classic mate. https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Hybrid_Tax

    Also, Warlocks are godtier atm, Hunters and Rogues are mid to high tier depending on spec.
    Meanwhile, Mages scrape the bottom of the barrel, and we've had 0 patches since the big Wildfire nerf back in f***ing January.

    And from what I've seen so far, 0 mentions of Mages in 8.2 patch notes.

    So yeah, everything's fine, move along, nothing to see here.
    Exactly, I am definitely excited for it. I even built my first Desktop ever for Classic, only ever played on a laptop.

  7. #7
    1. The rshaman was also higher than several other classes, not only the mage.
    2. That shaman, despite speccing resto, was geared exclusively for dps. In fact, you can see he hardly did any healing at all
    3. Fire mages are brought mostly for their execute. If you filter by p3, you'd see it does better than the healer

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by nickseng View Post
    1. The rshaman was also higher than several other classes, not only the mage.
    2. That shaman, despite speccing resto, was geared exclusively for dps. In fact, you can see he hardly did any healing at all
    3. Fire mages are brought mostly for their execute. If you filter by p3, you'd see it does better than the healer
    When you look at the fight in its entirety, there is only a single instance where the mage does something exceedingly well and that is on the ice wall intermission. Even in phase 3 that you point out, the mage doesn't do THAT much better than the resto shaman. The difference of 24,727 versus 23,367 is so irrelevant in the grand scheme of things if its DPS versus DPS, but its a healer pulling that number. The fact hes geared for DPS is irrelevant, the balance of a healing focused spec is outperforming something that can ONLY dps, is not acceptable balance.

    The fact that the mage is over the rshaman in dps is irrelevant, its by how much the mage is over the rshaman is the point.
    Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Multitorix Davlen View Post
    When you look at the fight in its entirety, there is only a single instance where the mage does something exceedingly well and that is on the ice wall intermission. Even in phase 3 that you point out, the mage doesn't do THAT much better than the resto shaman. The difference of 24,727 versus 23,367 is so irrelevant in the grand scheme of things if its DPS versus DPS, but its a healer pulling that number. The fact hes geared for DPS is irrelevant, the balance of a healing focused spec is outperforming something that can ONLY dps, is not acceptable balance.

    The fact that the mage is over the rshaman in dps is irrelevant, its by how much the mage is over the rshaman is the point.
    Look at the mages parse value though, they pulled a 34%, which is fucking garbage. So basically what you can take from this is that a single, weirdly geared resto shaman can outdps a garbage mage. There's nothing to see here.
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    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Multitorix Davlen View Post
    When you look at the fight in its entirety, there is only a single instance where the mage does something exceedingly well and that is on the ice wall intermission. Even in phase 3 that you point out, the mage doesn't do THAT much better than the resto shaman. The difference of 24,727 versus 23,367 is so irrelevant in the grand scheme of things if its DPS versus DPS, but its a healer pulling that number. The fact hes geared for DPS is irrelevant, the balance of a healing focused spec is outperforming something that can ONLY dps, is not acceptable balance.

    The fact that the mage is over the rshaman in dps is irrelevant, its by how much the mage is over the rshaman is the point.
    Everything you just mentioned is just proving the mage is garbage. Bad CD Management, bad movement, something hes doing is wrong. There is a reason Mages spec fire for Jaina, otherwise they'd be frost and blast entire fight. I'm not saying mages are fotm or op or even fine, just saying the one in this log is garbage. Also, lets not forget to mention that the shaman did a 100 log (didnt check if its #1 rank) but yeah, apparently he did everything right and was brought in for that reason.

    Just checked that shaman is idd Rank 1, so to compare, lets check the #1 Fire mage in P3

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e-done&phase=5

    If that mage above knew what the fuck to do he wouldve pulled those numbers. (2 Fire mages btw)
    Raid Mains: Warlock / Warrior
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by bloubli View Post
    Healer dps (start of the url is missing since i can't post url) : warcraftlogs.com/reports/qJghZ3krn7bxHGV2#fight=23&type=damage-done

    Jaina 90th percentiles for 415-417 ilvl (all ilvl is even more significant but more mages are in this ilvl range) : warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/21#dataset=90&boss=2281&bracket=16

    So yeah, a 412 ilvl rsham can do more dps than most mage of 415-417 ilvl while bringing huge raid cd. People can say that it's one ranking against a lot of mage ranking but if there were as many rsham dpsing than mages rsham best rank would have been even higher.
    This is to me an example among many other about how bad is the game balanced atm. Even for Crudible top 50 world progress some guilds used a rsham doing mostly dps.


    Do you think it's normal ?
    What kind of a comparison is that, taking a *single log* from one side, at the 100% percentile (!) -- that resto shaman is ranked #1, and comparing it to average 90% percentiles on the other.

    If you want to compare, compare apples to apples. Here is 90% percentile comparison of all classes:

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...t=16&class=Any

    Then you see, that a 90% percentile resto shaman does 8.8K dps, and arcane mage 22.5K, 2.5 times as much.

    That shaman probably just went on purpose for "healer DPS" ranks, and most of the healing was carried by his teammates. Yeah, if the shaman almost doesn't heal, is geared for DPS, and the stars align with good RNG, he can do decent single target DPS, but this is not representative of a typical raid.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    Look at the mages parse value though, they pulled a 34%, which is fucking garbage. So basically what you can take from this is that a single, weirdly geared resto shaman can outdps a garbage mage. There's nothing to see here.
    yeah.. hes not talking about the one mage that just so happened to be in the raid with the R-shaman, he is talking about mages in general vs that one R-shaman.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    Look at the mages parse value though, they pulled a 34%, which is fucking garbage. So basically what you can take from this is that a single, weirdly geared resto shaman can outdps a garbage mage. There's nothing to see here.
    thats true. but its also true that mages are quite bad rn
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by last1214 View Post
    yeah.. hes not talking about the one mage that just so happened to be in the raid with the R-shaman, he is talking about mages in general vs that one R-shaman.
    No he is literally talking about comparing a shit mage to a #1 shaman, thats like comparing a shit car to a F1 car, thats the difference, if you took 1 min to go over logs you'd see his point is mute and mages are fine. They have a specific role to fill and they do it well (unless the player is shit).

    Classes have niches, some classes are better at certain fights, some classes are garbage at other fights, and if you don't understand how progression raiding works then idk what to say, this is aimed specifically at the OP.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by PewPewArrowz View Post
    No he is literally talking about comparing a shit mage to a #1 shaman, thats like comparing a shit car to a F1 car, thats the difference, if you took 1 min to go over logs you'd see his point is mute and mages are fine. They have a specific role to fill and they do it well (unless the player is shit).

    Classes have niches, some classes are better at certain fights, some classes are garbage at other fights, and if you don't understand how progression raiding works then idk what to say, this is aimed specifically at the OP.

    Not at all. I a comparing one #1 Rshaman (and it's really easy to rank 1 as healer. If all rsham were doing dps rank 1 would have been higher) vs all mage.

    The dps of this shaman correspond to a ~90% ranking in the 3 mage specs. I don't care at all of one single mage that might be in the same combat than the rshaman.

    And yes you are right, mage have one specific role that is AI buff. Overall mage dps is bad. 2 target cleave is ok, 10 sec burst is high (but useless on current raids).Exec is ok in fire. Immune is pretty useless on current fights. A pure healer beeing able to do more DPS than 90% of the mage is representation of the bad classe balancing. Atm juste look at crucible, when they have choice nobody is bringing mages. For Jaina that was the same. Mage were still taken because nobody care of the DPS as there is not prerequise before the P3 where mage is decent.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post
    What kind of a comparison is that, taking a *single log* from one side, at the 100% percentile (!) -- that resto shaman is ranked #1, and comparing it to average 90% percentiles on the other.

    If you want to compare, compare apples to apples. Here is 90% percentile comparison of all classes:
    warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/21#dataset=90&boss=2281&bracket=16&class=Any

    Then you see, that a 90% percentile resto shaman does 8.8K dps, and arcane mage 22.5K, 2.5 times as much.

    That shaman probably just went on purpose for "healer DPS" ranks, and most of the healing was carried by his teammates. Yeah, if the shaman almost doesn't heal, is geared for DPS, and the stars align with good RNG, he can do decent single target DPS, but this is not representative of a typical raid.

    90% percentile of resto shaman means nothing because most of resto shaman are (hopefully) healing. Very few resto shaman are used as DPS with big heal cd. If all resto shaman were playing with pure DPS goal the rank 1 would have been higher.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by bloubli View Post
    snip
    This guy speaks the truth. I'm not sure why everybody else is so riled up about this.

    Mages are shit, end of story.

    Frost was good, then they nerfed Comet Storm by 12%, Frozen Orb by 11%, not to mention the CC nerf of Blizzard.
    Fire was good and then they capped Blaster Master at 3 stacks and reduced efficiency by 50%.
    Then Fire was good again and they destroyed Wildfire by nerfing it 30%

    On top of that, nearly every encounter is split cleave / multidot / spread target, which we can absolutely not do.

    Just wait for the next patch, nay, expansion, and maybe we can be useful again. And in the meantime, celebrate Arcane Intellect because it's 90% of the reason we're still alive today.

  17. #17
    This is obviously rather an issue of the dps of a resto shaman being too high than that of a mage (and other specs, purely depending on the procentiles you choose) being too low.

    That doesn't mean that mages (and other specs) don't need a buff to stay competitive, it just means that your reasoning that damage dealers need a buff because they can be outdps'd by a healer is moot.

  18. #18
    I reckon this was all for the parse talents and gear all seem to be DPS oriented and would explain the total lack of healing and the other 4 healers on a mythic setup.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by bloubli View Post
    A pure healer beeing able to do more DPS than 90% of the mage is representation of the bad classe balancing.
    I think for fairness sake someone should mention that in order to achieve that Dps as Resto, you need 3x Igneous Potential alongside Natural Harmony (Or Treacherous Covenant), which happen to be pure DPS traits that also work as Resto.

    Secondly, Lava Burst deals insane damage as Resto, combine that with the fact that Igneous Potential increases Lava Surge chance to 23% (just 18% for Ele) and you basically have a Lava Burst turret on a two target fight, which is Jaina P3.
    So yeah, Resto Shaman have some "favorable" circumstances here.

    At the very least, enlighten people about circumstances, this title by itself is misleading.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-05-07 at 05:54 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by bloubli View Post
    Not at all. I a comparing one #1 Rshaman (and it's really easy to rank 1 as healer. If all rsham were doing dps rank 1 would have been higher) vs all mage.

    The dps of this shaman correspond to a ~90% ranking in the 3 mage specs. I don't care at all of one single mage that might be in the same combat than the rshaman.

    And yes you are right, mage have one specific role that is AI buff. Overall mage dps is bad. 2 target cleave is ok, 10 sec burst is high (but useless on current raids).Exec is ok in fire. Immune is pretty useless on current fights. A pure healer beeing able to do more DPS than 90% of the mage is representation of the bad classe balancing. Atm juste look at crucible, when they have choice nobody is bringing mages. For Jaina that was the same. Mage were still taken because nobody care of the DPS as there is not prerequise before the P3 where mage is decent.

    - - - Updated - - -




    90% percentile of resto shaman means nothing because most of resto shaman are (hopefully) healing. Very few resto shaman are used as DPS with big heal cd. If all resto shaman were playing with pure DPS goal the rank 1 would have been higher.
    The healer in that log didn't cast a single healing spell, just dropped spirit link and used asendance. If you want a healer to just to dps and don't need the healing, just bring another dps class. The fact of the matter is that the resto shaman there just tried to rank as "healer dps" on purpose. That's something you can do during farm and not during progress, it's not representative.
    Last edited by Koor; 2019-05-07 at 06:27 PM.

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