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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    Exactly, I am definitely excited for it. I even built my first Desktop ever for Classic, only ever played on a laptop.
    Ugh, this shit gives me chills. Whenever I play on a laptop I can just feel how handicapped I am compared to on a real computer.

    Anyway, on live servers balance isn't done on a class-by-class basis but rather on a spec-by-spec basis, which is why there's no hybrid tax and why a class can have three specs in the bottom.

  2. #22
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    Sure if you compare garbage player with a top player, then obviously.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post
    The healer in that log didn't cast a single healing spell, just dropped spirit link and used asendance. If you want a healer to just to dps and don't need the healing, just bring another dps class. The fact of the matter is that the resto shaman there just tried to rank as "healer dps" on purpose. That's something you can do during farm and not during progress, it's not representative.
    It's a common strategy to bring a resto shaman to ONLY spirit link due to how powerful it is. It's not just a farm only strat. Because the rshaman has such huge dps potential is why you can do this in the first place.
    Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

  4. #24
    "Healer" in question: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch.../uppv%C3%A4rmd


    Checking him out, you will see that his iLevel in the raid in question was 413. Check him out in armory and his iLevel is 413 in all his Elemental gear.

    While I don't play BfA (other than a few hours of beta) if the player was wearing his elemental gear it's quite possible the effects of that stupid Azerite Armor are greater than those of the "spec".

    Perhaps he simply forgot to switch spec that fight. Either way it doesn't show a class balance issue as much as it shows how insignificant specs are anymore now that RNG azerite gear is available.

    At this point, there will never be balance across classes/specs... Blizz is just designing to obscure it by allowing then blaming gear for it.

    is it fair to assume you are Spankyasd , the mage getting his butt spanked in this parse?

    You should just accept that Shaman have been total crap DPS for almost ALL of WoW history... maybe it's time it got to be flava-o-de-month!

  5. #25
    Lmao at thinking this is representative.

  6. #26
    Omg but of course he was only doing dps. And of course he had dps trait including broken igenous potential. The point is just that a healer should not be more effective than 90% of the player of any dps spec (don't care at all about the people in the log in question, just look at the mage stats percentile) at doing DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post
    The healer in that log didn't cast a single healing spell, just dropped spirit link and used asendance. If you want a healer to just to dps and don't need the healing, just bring another dps class. The fact of the matter is that the resto shaman there just tried to rank as "healer dps" on purpose. That's something you can do during farm and not during progress, it's not representative.
    Tell that to Nothern Sky or The Unnamed guils that killed The Restless Cabal using resto sham as dps. The problem is that it bring comparable dps than a weak dps class but also brings huge raid cd.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by bloubli View Post
    Omg but of course he was only doing dps. And of course he had dps trait including broken igenous potential. The point is just that a healer should not be more effective than 90% of the player of any dps spec (don't care at all about the people in the log in question, just look at the mage stats percentile) at doing DPS.



    Tell that to Nothern Sky or The Unnamed guils that killed The Restless Cabal using resto sham as dps. The problem is that it bring comparable dps than a weak dps class but also brings huge raid cd.
    If a mage is doing weak dps, that's a problem in its own right. It's not like healers are stealing mage spots in the raid... I saw method using 12 warlocks, if any, its the warlock stealing the mage spot not the healer.

  8. #28
    I would argue the problem is even bigger. If you look at the DPS-Rotation of Healers (and tanks) they are very simplistic. It's mostly 3 spells. This is VERY easy to do. It is not easy at all to parse 90%+ as a mage of any spec. It just is not.

    Also, the utility this RSham brings stacks. More Shaman means more totems. Whether you need them for the particular fight or not is a different question, but you get more utility by bringing more Shaman.

    The only Utility mages bring is AI. Does it stack? No.

    If a Healer-Spec with stacking utility package can match a 90% parse of a DPS spec pushing 3 buttons, then this is a problem. I fail to see how anybody can defend it. It's simply a problem.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post
    If a mage is doing weak dps, that's a problem in its own right. It's not like healers are stealing mage spots in the raid... I saw method using 12 warlocks, if any, its the warlock stealing the mage spot not the healer.
    I never said healer are stealing mage spots in the raid. I just show an example of how the game is imbalance. Of course there is a lot of other imbalance. Ignous potential is absurdly more imbalance that was for example wildfire or blast master mage trait before they get nerf. Thanks this trait elemental are just god and even healer can do very high dps.

    The question was actually "Do you think normal that a healer can do more dps than 90% of the mage parsing on mythic jaina ?"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathasil View Post
    I would argue the problem is even bigger. If you look at the DPS-Rotation of Healers (and tanks) they are very simplistic. It's mostly 3 spells. This is VERY easy to do. It is not easy at all to parse 90%+ as a mage of any spec. It just is not.

    Also, the utility this RSham brings stacks. More Shaman means more totems. Whether you need them for the particular fight or not is a different question, but you get more utility by bringing more Shaman.

    The only Utility mages bring is AI. Does it stack? No.

    If a Healer-Spec with stacking utility package can match a 90% parse of a DPS spec pushing 3 buttons, then this is a problem. I fail to see how anybody can defend it. It's simply a problem.
    Thank you for understanding the point and the question.

  10. #30
    You don't need to compare a bad mage parse and a good shaman parse to think mage DPS is bad.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...t=90&boss=2281 If you can read statistics you'd see it. Mage is only brought for arcane intellect, the situation is pretty dire.

    It's not even that mage doesn't multidot and like 90% of current encounters have multidot components.

    The one mage spec focused on single target damage is below every warlock spec (and every hunter spec actually) on the only mainly single target fight in the tier.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...t=90&boss=2276

    And then mage just gets trashed on every other fight. There is no situation where mage is good.
    Last edited by Nitros14; 2019-05-07 at 07:55 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    You don't need to compare a bad mage parse and a good shaman parse to think mage DPS is bad.
    If you can read statistics you'd see it. Mage is only brought for arcane intellect, the situation is pretty dire.

    It's not even that mage doesn't multidot and like 90% of current encounters have multidot components.

    The one mage spec focused on single target damage is below every warlock spec on the only mainly single target fight in the tier.


    And then mage just gets trashed on every other fight. There is no situation where mage is good.

    Sure. Was just highlighting that fun fact (not than a Rsham beat a mage but that a Rsham beat 90% of the mage parsing, the same stats link you put was in my original post). It's just an example among many of imbalance of the game.
    Overall, mage are as you said below Warlock / Elemental even in single target and 2 target cleave (common raid situation where the mage shine well). So as you said with encouter having separeted target cleave they are just at miles from other class (warlock / SP / MK / Elem).
    Last edited by bloubli; 2019-05-07 at 10:15 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by bloubli View Post
    I never said healer are stealing mage spots in the raid. I just show an example of how the game is imbalance. Of course there is a lot of other imbalance. Ignous potential is absurdly more imbalance that was for example wildfire or blast master mage trait before they get nerf. Thanks this trait elemental are just god and even healer can do very high dps.

    The question was actually "Do you think normal that a healer can do more dps than 90% of the mage parsing on mythic jaina ?"

    - - - Updated - - -



    Thank you for understanding the point and the question.
    Resto shamans are already the most garbage healers for mythic+. Calling for the nerf of their DPS because of a non-representative case of one resto shaman using all his GCDs to DPS is wrong. This is only single target DPS. In a real situation the shaman needs to heal and barely has few GCDs to throw a few lava bursts, as you see the 90% percentile of resto shamans and not the #1 ranked are doing 2.5 times less DPS than the mage.

    Also this type of DPS has no AOE potential. A mage can do tons of AOE dps on packs of mobs, which a resto shaman can not.

    On the other hand, a resto druid, which is already the top tier healer for mythic+, brings a combat res, can use ONE gcd to throw a sunfire dot on an entire pack of trash, AND can go cat form with feral affinity and DPS *without mana cost*, again swipe hitting an entire pack, while his hots are healing the party. He'll do miles more DPS than a resto shaman over the entire key.

    Healer DPS should be compared to other healers and not to a mage, which is a DPS class. Compare a mage to warlock, not a resto shaman. What do you gain from nerfing healer DPS? Healers are not competing with your spot in the raid but you'll make life even harder for them to join mythic+ where the bit of DPS matters.

  13. #33
    The problem currently is, that restoshaman can be a full dps and literally does same dps than many other classes.
    Yes of course the restoshaman uses dps gear and traits, becuase thats the idea and tactic behind that. To be a DPS in Heal-Spec.
    The problem with that is, that it can make healingfights supereasy.

    As example for an encounter that requires 4 healers you can still take 4 standard healers und additionally 4 restoshamans in dps gear/traits, that are actually doing same dps as all other dps players. That way you have 8 big healing CDs and there is no downside. and if needed during damage peaks they could even heal (yes then they sacrifice dps in their actual dps role).

    so basically they take away the spot of a dps because you dont bring them for the healing spot... you bring them for the dps spot and get a big defensive cd for free without any disadvantage.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by texhex View Post
    The problem currently is, that restoshaman can be a full dps and literally does same dps than many other classes.
    Yes of course the restoshaman uses dps gear and traits, becuase thats the idea and tactic behind that. To be a DPS in Heal-Spec.
    The problem with that is, that it can make healingfights supereasy.

    As example for an encounter that requires 4 healers you can still take 4 standard healers und additionally 4 restoshamans in dps gear/traits, that are actually doing same dps as all other dps players. That way you have 8 big healing CDs and there is no downside. and if needed during damage peaks they could even heal (yes then they sacrifice dps in their actual dps role).

    so basically they take away the spot of a dps because you dont bring them for the healing spot... you bring them for the dps spot and get a big defensive cd for free without any disadvantage.
    This is not supported by numbers of people actually doing this. Resto shaman can't AOE DPS efficiently. Have some AOE in fight and it'll be behind a real DPS substantially.

    Here are statistics on DPS of all classes at the 75% percentile, on all bosses:

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...gregate=amount

    A 75% percentile Resto shaman did an average of 1.4K dps.
    A 75% percentile Disc Priest did an average of 8.3K dps.
    A 75% percentile fire mage did an average of 23.6K dps.

    So the healer class that is doing most DPS is a disc priest, not a resto shaman. And a 75% percentile mage does on average 16.8 times the DPS of a 75% percentile resto shaman.
    Last edited by Koor; 2019-05-08 at 08:02 AM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post
    Here are statistics on DPS of all classes at the 75% percentile, on all bosses:

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...gregate=amount

    A 75% percentile Resto shaman did an average of 1.4K dps.
    A 75% percentile Disc Priest did an average of 8.3K dps.
    A 75% percentile fire mage did an average of 23.6K dps.
    This comparison makes no sense.

    First and foremost your average healer will not optimize DPS while in a healing role. In addition comparing lower percentile heal DPS against a Disc Priest with its needed DPS to basicly just heal makes even less sense.

    You could also compare healing done from DPS class logs and all you would see in lower percentile, that specs with passive leech/shields would do more HPS than specs without passive heals.
    hidden information WoWArmory | Raider.IO | WoWProg | logs Logs1 | Logs2 | Logs3

  16. #36
    The point in the end is: a healer with a specific set can outperform a large cut of a pure dps class and a number of other specs. The point aims to illustrate the class design is in a sore state to allow this to happen. Even if Mages have a good set of Azerite and play well, they are not outperforming that healer by a large margin.

    A pure dps class should be able to outdo a healer in dps by a considerable margin, unless they afk in fight.

    I am not saying nerf a fun niche for Shaman, I say buff sad pure dps class which has no options to shine.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    I still don't get why Warlocks, Hunters, Rogues, and Mages are not the top 4 DPS all of their specs should be top and outdps any class that can tank or heal. If they cannot be top DPS then they have no purpose at all since that is all they can do.
    Hybrid tax hasn't been a thing, thank the Earthmother, for a decade or so.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Ugh, this shit gives me chills. Whenever I play on a laptop I can just feel how handicapped I am compared to on a real computer.

    Anyway, on live servers balance isn't done on a class-by-class basis but rather on a spec-by-spec basis, which is why there's no hybrid tax and why a class can have three specs in the bottom.
    I hardcore raided BC-WRATH not only on a laptop, but with a track pad I was resto druid and no one died on my watch, we were number one guild on our server for most of early Wrath and I never used a Mouse until I started playing The Secret World that was in CATA then I figured it out now I cannot stand a track pad for anything.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Hybrid tax hasn't been a thing, thank the Earthmother, for a decade or so.
    Which is why I think there is a large decline in the use of Pure DPS classes, If you know you are picking a suboptimal class from the get go that has to wait forever to find groups or wait in Q forever what is the point when you can grab a Tank or Healer OS for another class and blast through dungeons 100% faster.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    I hardcore raided BC-WRATH not only on a laptop, but with a track pad I was resto druid and no one died on my watch, we were number one guild on our server for most of early Wrath and I never used a Mouse until I started playing The Secret World that was in CATA then I figured it out now I cannot stand a track pad for anything.
    Sounds like your guild was either terrible or you were carried hardcore. That or you weren't using the track pad to heal, but just keybindings. Laptops are and have always been terrible for gaming, especially if you use them as is.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Sounds like your guild was either terrible or you were carried hardcore. That or you weren't using the track pad to heal, but just keybindings. Laptops are and have always been terrible for gaming, especially if you use them as is.
    Never said it was optimal, just how I did it back in the day. To be fair I 1 button macro huntarded in BC. I was actually brought into Naxx and basically solo healed 25 man Saph with no FR gear. I used Key bindings and Grid to select and heal each individual person. I couldn't justify a Desktop while in High School and College, then when I got out of college I had to use a laptop for work or home use so I just packed it up every night and brought it home. Now that I have the funds to have both a good laptop and decent desktop I purchased both.

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