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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post
    This is not supported by numbers of people actually doing this. Resto shaman can't AOE DPS efficiently. Have some AOE in fight and it'll be behind a real DPS substantially.

    Here are statistics on DPS of all classes at the 75% percentile, on all bosses:

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...gregate=amount

    A 75% percentile Resto shaman did an average of 1.4K dps.
    A 75% percentile Disc Priest did an average of 8.3K dps.
    A 75% percentile fire mage did an average of 23.6K dps.

    So the healer class that is doing most DPS is a disc priest, not a resto shaman. And a 75% percentile mage does on average 16.8 times the DPS of a 75% percentile resto shaman.

    math wise totaly wrong to compare restoshamans dps percentile with mage.
    why? because 99% of the restoshamas actually are real healers and have little to 0 dps and yet count for the percentile.
    if 99% of the restoshamans actually just did their normal healing job then you will even have a superlow number at 99 percentile

    youll never be able to compare restoshaman dps with warcraftlog information. only sims can show the potential.

    and yes, aoe of restoshaman might be crap, but in how many fights was that relevant. last two expansions not a single mythic endboss.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by texhex View Post
    math wise totaly wrong to compare restoshamans dps percentile with mage.
    why? because 99% of the restoshamas actually are real healers and have little to 0 dps and yet count for the percentile.
    if 99% of the restoshamans actually just did their normal healing job then you will even have a superlow number at 99 percentile

    youll never be able to compare restoshaman dps with warcraftlog information. only sims can show the potential.

    and yes, aoe of restoshaman might be crap, but in how many fights was that relevant. last two expansions not a single mythic endboss.
    Indeed. The vast majority of resto shamans are mostly healing and throw few DPS spells here and there. The theoretical "problem scenario" outlined earlier in the thread of 4 resto shamans stealing 4 dps spots in the raid just doesn't exist. If it was common, we would have seen it in the statistics.

    This thread takes the logs of one resto shaman, who happened to be ranked #1, and used all his GCDs to DPS on a single target fight, and calls for healer DPS nerfs as if this was a common scenario rather than a niche. Most likely the shaman there just wanted to parse #1 and his guildies helped him by carrying the healing so he can DPS and rank.

    In a much more common scenario, the resto shaman would be healing and use just few GCDs to DPS. The overall DPS would be low since most GCDs are used for healing, and nerfing it would mean he'll do almost zero DPS, since he won't have the GCDs available (since he's healing), and now each GCD will do small damage (since it'll be nerfed).

    Then resto shamans won't be taken at all to high mythic+ keys (and they are already bottom tier healer) since every other healer would be doing much more DPS (e.g. resto druids who can do massive AOE dps with single sunfire or swipe GCD).

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post
    The healer in that log didn't cast a single healing spell, just dropped spirit link and used asendance. If you want a healer to just to dps and don't need the healing, just bring another dps class. The fact of the matter is that the resto shaman there just tried to rank as "healer dps" on purpose. That's something you can do during farm and not during progress, it's not representative.
    Actually it is representative. A lot of groups take 2 rsham and have 1 of them go triple IP traits. This allows the rsham to do some pretty insane dps while also bringing spirit link which is very much needed. Why bring another dps when rsham can just do a ton of dps+bring spirit link. I actually like this and think it’s a good thing for shamans, I’m not sure how they feel about it though.

    Saying “just bring a dps” is a lack of understanding behind the reasoning for bringing a triple IP rsham. It’s very beneficial especially for Jaina. Spirit link is an amazing raid CD, it helps stabilize in both p2 and p3. No reason to bring another dps when rsham can pump and also bring a huge healing CD. Not only that but it’s highly likely your raid will already be composed of the best dps classes, so the ones left don’t really have the tools to compete with something like triple IP shaman which makes it a valid choice. Obviously not all guilds will be doing this though especially now that Jaina has been out for a while and nerfed through hotfixes/gear.
    Last edited by Taeldorian; 2019-05-08 at 07:17 PM.

  4. #44
    Warchief Amaterasu65's Avatar
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    This is disgusting. I can't believe they allow the mages to be in such a trash spot with 0 discussions of tweaks for the new patch.so disappointing and underwhelming for an otherwise very fun and pretty class..

  5. #45
    The Lightbringer Archmage Alodi's Avatar
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    I rerolled from mage after 12 years and never looked back in BfA. Plays like shit , doesn't do enough dmg to compensate , why would anyone keep playing this crap?
    Quote Originally Posted by The-Shan View Post
    This was shown at BlizzCon. Blizzard is a community, not a company. Activision makes games for the Blizzard community.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    Actually it is representative. A lot of groups take 2 rsham and have 1 of them go triple IP traits. This allows the rsham to do some pretty insane dps while also bringing spirit link which is very much needed. Why bring another dps when rsham can just do a ton of dps+bring spirit link. I actually like this and think it’s a good thing for shamans, I’m not sure how they feel about it though.

    Saying “just bring a dps” is a lack of understanding behind the reasoning for bringing a triple IP rsham. It’s very beneficial especially for Jaina. Spirit link is an amazing raid CD, it helps stabilize in both p2 and p3. No reason to bring another dps when rsham can pump and also bring a huge healing CD. Not only that but it’s highly likely your raid will already be composed of the best dps classes, so the ones left don’t really have the tools to compete with something like triple IP shaman which makes it a valid choice. Obviously not all guilds will be doing this though especially now that Jaina has been out for a while and nerfed through hotfixes/gear.
    Resto shamans are good for Jaina. In method's world first they used two resto shamans, both of them healing since the fight requires a lot of stacking and spirit link is good when the raid is stacked.

    Still it's a niche. If it was common you would see the average percentile of resto shamans doing much more DPS, and the numbers don't show this.

    You don't nerf all resto shamans DPS because of few cases of healers that can afford not to heal at all and just drop spirit link. The game has other content. Usually a healer has to heal and can't afford only to DPS. The tuning of DPS spells takes this into consideration.

    For example in high mythic+ there is a single healer in the group, he can't afford to use all his GCDs to DPS. If you nerf his DPS spells, his overall DPS would be close to zero since he can only afford to DPS in few GCDs, there are no other healers in mythic+ to carry the healing.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post
    Resto shamans are good for Jaina. In method's world first they used two resto shamans, both of them healing since the fight requires a lot of stacking and spirit link is good when the raid is stacked.

    Still it's a niche. If it was common you would see the average percentile of resto shamans doing much more DPS, and the numbers don't show this.

    You don't nerf all resto shamans DPS because of few cases of healers that can afford not to heal at all and just drop spirit link. The game has other content. Usually a healer has to heal and can't afford only to DPS. The tuning of DPS spells takes this into consideration.

    For example in high mythic+ there is a single healer in the group, he can't afford to use all his GCDs to DPS. If you nerf his DPS spells, his overall DPS would be close to zero since he can only afford to DPS in few GCDs, there are no other healers in mythic+ to carry the healing.
    Wait I didn’t say to nerf anything, I want shamans to be able to pump dps. Rsham will never be able to pump massive dps while also healing like an actual healer. The only way these guys are hitting 17-25k dps (and 30-40k+ on cabal) is by giving up healing traits for dps traits. I’d say that’s a fair trade personally.

    For method, you can check the twitter of a few of there raiders, they specifically mentioned taking a shaman with IP traits is very good for Jaina. However I wouldn’t focus too much on what method does as they’re killing bosses before nerfs (generally) and with a lower ilvl. They also stated that if they could do Jaina over they’d bring a 5th healer and just have one of the shamans focus solely on dps while throwing down link whenever needed.

    I’m also not saying an rsham doing 20k+ is representative of what all shamans are doing and should be doing however the reason you’re seeing this on Jaina is because of how the fights dmg patterns work and how good link is compared to another dps’ utility. There’s quite a few logs of rshams pumping dps on Jaina but it’ll depend on your group. For example we only had 4 heals and 1 rsham so he was healing most of the time, however if it were up to us we would’ve taken an extra rsham for spirit link+dps.

    On top of that in relation to this whole thread I don’t think it’s fair to compare an Rsham whose speccing fully for dps and focusing most of the time on dpsing to a mage. Link is a super strong CD and that’s why this is all considered, since they can drop that and prevent deaths essentially. APT totem is also huge for Jaina. If you look at any rsham that focuses on healing it’s not even close to a mage. I’m a healer so I’m not too focused on mages and how they’re doing but they can definitely use some help right now. We barely want 1.
    Last edited by Taeldorian; 2019-05-08 at 07:51 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    Wait I didn’t say to nerf anything, I want shamans to be able to pump dps. Rsham will never be able to pump massive dps while also healing like an actual healer. The only way these guys are hitting 17-25k dps (and 30-40k+ on cabal) is by giving up healing traits for dps traits. I’d say that’s a fair trade personally.

    For method, you can check the twitter of a few of there raiders, they specifically mentioned taking a shaman with IP traits is very good for Jaina. However I wouldn’t focus too much on what method does as they’re killing bosses before nerfs (generally) and with a lower ilvl. They also stated that if they could do Jaina over they’d bring a 5th healer and just have one of the shamans focus solely on dps while throwing down link whenever needed.

    I’m also not saying an rsham doing 20k+ is representative of what all shamans are doing and should be doing however the reason you’re seeing this on Jaina is because of how the fights dmg patterns work and how good link is compared to another dps’ utility. There’s quite a few logs of rshams pumping dps on Jaina but it’ll depend on your group. For example we only had 4 heals and 1 rsham so he was healing most of the time, however if it were up to us we would’ve taken an extra rsham for spirit link+dps.

    On top of that in relation to this whole thread I don’t think it’s fair to compare an Rsham whose speccing fully for dps and focusing most of the time on dpsing to a mage. Link is a super strong CD and that’s why this is all considered, since they can drop that and prevent deaths essentially. APT totem is also huge for Jaina. If you look at any rsham that focuses on healing it’s not even close to a mage. I’m a healer so I’m not too focused on mages and how they’re doing but they can definitely use some help right now. We barely want 1.
    OK. I apologize I didn't mean to imply that you specifically called for resto shaman nerfs, but the general spirit of this thread is implying that resto shaman being able to pump DPS if he's not healing at all is not normal and an example of a game imbalance.

    If a mage has low DPS on Jaina, that's a problem in its own right. Buff mages, but don't nerf resto shaman DPS since most of the player base do heal and have few GCDs left for DPS.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post
    OK. I apologize I didn't mean to imply that you specifically called for resto shaman nerfs, but the general spirit of this thread is implying that resto shaman being able to pump DPS if he's not healing at all is not normal and an example of a game imbalance.

    If a mage has low DPS on Jaina, that's a problem in its own right. Buff mages, but don't nerf resto shaman DPS since most of the player base do heal and have few GCDs left for DPS.
    No you’re all good. Yeah, I completely agree with you. Rshams being able to dps is because they spec for it and generally ignore healing outside of throwing down link when necessary. I personally think this is a good thing and it really adds choice to the spec, mages being bad is a result of bad balancing especially for a class with 3 dps specs. No reason to nerf rshams to bring them in line with mages, the two shouldn’t be competing in the first place. Mages are just poorly balanced atm.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    I hardcore raided BC-WRATH not only on a laptop, but with a track pad I was resto druid and no one died on my watch, we were number one guild on our server for most of early Wrath and I never used a Mouse until I started playing The Secret World that was in CATA then I figured it out now I cannot stand a track pad for anything.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Which is why I think there is a large decline in the use of Pure DPS classes, If you know you are picking a suboptimal class from the get go that has to wait forever to find groups or wait in Q forever what is the point when you can grab a Tank or Healer OS for another class and blast through dungeons 100% faster.
    Because they have 3 dps specs to choose from instead of 1 or 2 so the odds are that at least one of them will be in the top performing window. If shadow is bad then dps priests are out of luck. If ele is bad then you either sit, heal, or go enh. If sub is scraping the barrel, outlaw is in the middle, and assassin is rocking it you have your options.

  11. #51
    totally agree with latest posts, that mage being in a pretty bad state is a problen in its own and has nothing to do with the restoshaman being used as dps.

    still its a design flaw, that a shaman in restospec can do similar dps to a real dps. basically this should be impossible with the additional dps abilities and dps talents you get as ele compared to resto.

    the moment a healer is doing to same dps as a dps while also having the toolkit of a healer then something is wrong.
    noone says something if a healer could theoretically do 70% of the damage of a real dps in dps spec. ut no healer should be able to do 100% of a dps while also getting the toolkit of a healer like healing tide, spirit link, etc. those are huge defensive CDs

    atm not everyone is making use of that that much except the top guilds. it wasnt even known by the broad audience until the WF race during crucible. also not every restoshaman is willing to play as a pure dps (or vice versa) also not every guild has severall shamans to abuse the current situation.
    The whole situation would become a real problem if it would become mainstream.
    atm it is not, but that can change fast

    The problem is caused by the by far OP igneous potential trait, that buffs something that a restoshaman can make use of as well.
    besides that ele shaman has also OP single target damage. thats why restoshaman is not really falling far behind compared to other dps classes, and is even ahead of some.

    not saying that ele needs to get nerfed 8even though the trait is imo too strong) but noone can deny that the current restoshaman situation being able to do normal dps ST, while maintaining healer toolkit is an issue. no other spec has that dps potential while also having a full healer toolkit.
    Last edited by texhex; 2019-05-09 at 10:52 AM.

  12. #52
    Not really sure whats so upsetting with the idea of a dps with healing CDs. If he spends just afew gcds on hardcasting a heal his dps goes to shit. Its niché dps that will go away whenever azerite is ditched.

    If its any consolation warriortanks also outdps pure dpsclasses in nichescenarios. Go go QQ.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by texhex View Post
    totally agree with latest posts, that mage being in a pretty bad state is a problen in its own and has nothing to do with the restoshaman being used as dps.

    still its a design flaw, that a shaman in restospec can do similar dps to a real dps. basically this should be impossible with the additional dps abilities and dps talents you get as ele compared to resto.

    the moment a healer is doing to same dps as a dps while also having the toolkit of a healer then something is wrong.
    noone says something if a healer could theoretically do 70% of the damage of a real dps in dps spec. ut no healer should be able to do 100% of a dps while also getting the toolkit of a healer like healing tide, spirit link, etc. those are huge defensive CDs

    atm not everyone is making use of that that much except the top guilds. it wasnt even known by the broad audience until the WF race during crucible. also not every restoshaman is willing to play as a pure dps (or vice versa) also not every guild has severall shamans to abuse the current situation.
    The whole situation would become a real problem if it would become mainstream.
    atm it is not, but that can change fast

    The problem is caused by the by far OP igneous potential trait, that buffs something that a restoshaman can make use of as well.
    besides that ele shaman has also OP single target damage. thats why restoshaman is not really falling far behind compared to other dps classes, and is even ahead of some.

    not saying that ele needs to get nerfed 8even though the trait is imo too strong) but noone can deny that the current restoshaman situation being able to do normal dps ST, while maintaining healer toolkit is an issue. no other spec has that dps potential while also having a full healer toolkit.
    Jaina isn't at any point a "normal dps ST" though. It's just an outlier fight that really suits Restoration shamans (dps-ing) and is awful for mages.

    And besides, this isn't a healer just slapping on some dps traits and instantly doing well. It's an elemental main playing restoration only for this particular fight.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Caus View Post
    Not really sure whats so upsetting with the idea of a dps with healing CDs. If he spends just afew gcds on hardcasting a heal his dps goes to shit. Its niché dps that will go away whenever azerite is ditched.

    If its any consolation warriortanks also outdps pure dpsclasses in nichescenarios. Go go QQ.
    Healing Cds are : SLT, Rez totem and healing hide totem. He used the 3 of them in the fight.

    It's not just nichescenario. Single target Rshamn is really close to the worst single target dps spec. And Rsham outperform many spec at doing damage to a single target if some secondary target are present. You can called it niche scenario if you want but when it's the case in the majority of the encouter it's not a niche anymore.

  15. #55
    Mages aren't the problem.
    Resto isn't the problem.

    Resto having access to all of Ele's azerite traits is the problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Mexico is already part of the USA so is Canada

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Denso View Post
    Jaina isn't at any point a "normal dps ST" though. It's just an outlier fight
    Jaina is not an outlier but just an example.

    Champion of the Light : Best rsham Dps = 32.1k which is more than the 75th percentile value of 22 dps spec (among a total of 24).
    Jadefire : Best rsham Dps = 25.3k which is more than the 75th percentile value of 21 dps spec (among a total of 24).
    Grong : Best rsham Dps = 24.7k which is more than the 75th percentile value of 21 dps spec (among a total of 24).
    Oppulence : Best rsham Dps = 37.014k which is more than the 75th percentile value of 9 dps spec (among a total of 24).
    Conclave : Best rsham Dps = 20.9k which is more than the 75th percentile value of 11 dps spec (among a total of 24).
    Rasta: Best rsham Dps = 21.89k which is more than the 75th percentile value of 7 dps spec (among a total of 24).
    Mekka : Best rsham Dps =18.69k which is more than the 75th percentile value of 11 dps spec (among a total of 24).
    Blockade: Best rsham Dps =20.8k which is more than the 75th percentile value of 0 dps spec (among a total of 24).
    Jaina : Best rsham Dps =22k which is more than the 75th percentile value of 9 dps spec (among a total of 24).

    So on average on the entire BoD raid, we constat that the best rsham dps ranking is above the 75th percentile value of 51% (average of 12.33 over 24) of the DPS spec.

    And yes I used the best ranking vs the 75th percentile value because the 75th percentile value for rshaman means nothing as we are talking about rsham that are only doing some DPS (which is i hope less than 1% of the rshaman killing the bosses). Be sure that if 100% of the rshaman were focus about doing some DPS the number will be higher. That not intent to prove at all that rshaman is a better dps spec than some other, just that it can be used as a viable dps spec.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by bloubli View Post
    Jaina is not an outlier but just an example.

    Champion of the Light : Best rsham Dps = 32.1k which is more than the 75th percentile value of 22 dps spec (among a total of 24).
    Jadefire : Best rsham Dps = 25.3k which is more than the 75th percentile value of 21 dps spec (among a total of 24).
    Grong : Best rsham Dps = 24.7k which is more than the 75th percentile value of 21 dps spec (among a total of 24).
    Oppulence : Best rsham Dps = 37.014k which is more than the 75th percentile value of 9 dps spec (among a total of 24).
    Conclave : Best rsham Dps = 20.9k which is more than the 75th percentile value of 11 dps spec (among a total of 24).
    Rasta: Best rsham Dps = 21.89k which is more than the 75th percentile value of 7 dps spec (among a total of 24).
    Mekka : Best rsham Dps =18.69k which is more than the 75th percentile value of 11 dps spec (among a total of 24).
    Blockade: Best rsham Dps =20.8k which is more than the 75th percentile value of 0 dps spec (among a total of 24).
    Jaina : Best rsham Dps =22k which is more than the 75th percentile value of 9 dps spec (among a total of 24).

    So on average on the entire BoD raid, we constat that the best rsham dps ranking is above the 75th percentile value of 51% (average of 12.33 over 24) of the DPS spec.

    And yes I used the best ranking vs the 75th percentile value because the 75th percentile value for rshaman means nothing as we are talking about rsham that are only doing some DPS (which is i hope less than 1% of the rshaman killing the bosses). Be sure that if 100% of the rshaman were focus about doing some DPS the number will be higher. That not intent to prove at all that rshaman is a better dps spec than some other, just that it can be used as a viable dps spec.
    Right, as if every guild in the world can have a raid full of rank #1 skilled players...
    Not to mention that top ranks always have the best RNG in their favour as well (that's why they are top).
    How about compare the rank #1 shaman to the rank #1 DPS player for a bit more fair comparison?

  18. #58
    ^ why would he? There'd be no scandal then.

    Bad players will always be upset and present skewed statistics to advocate their shitarguments.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post
    Right, as if every guild in the world can have a raid full of rank #1 skilled players...
    Not to mention that top ranks always have the best RNG in their favour as well (that's why they are top).
    How about compare the rank #1 shaman to the rank #1 DPS player for a bit more fair comparison?

    Rank #1 dps as a healer is very different of rank #1 DPS as a dps spec. You just didn't understand the point, and a such comparaison would be not fair at all (10 000 players than try to max their dps on each clean against 20 healers that one time try to max their dps).

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post
    OK. I apologize I didn't mean to imply that you specifically called for resto shaman nerfs, but the general spirit of this thread is implying that resto shaman being able to pump DPS if he's not healing at all is not normal and an example of a game imbalance.

    If a mage has low DPS on Jaina, that's a problem in its own right. Buff mages, but don't nerf resto shaman DPS since most of the player base do heal and have few GCDs left for DPS.
    I am not sure how people spun off to "nerf resto shaman". When I read initial post, understood perfectly that OP was trying to show how bad mage DPS is.

    It's a diverse problem for mages, part is raid design, part is RNG nature of procs (12+ frost bolts for a proc), part is secondaries (no realistic shot at 33.34% crit soft cap for frost), proc munching, tier 45 providing 12% of our damage, talents on just about every tier that can never compete with talent(s) in their tier. Another part is that Blizzard keeps insisting on balancing PvP with PvE when they have in place a way to remove that as an issue.


    As an aside. different crew running show at Blizzard now, however I'd remind folks they nuked Shockadin because healer should never be able to compete with DPS.

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