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  1. #21
    There is 50% chance of it happening. And 50% of it not happening.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Teaon View Post
    so you want to ditch WQ without a proper replacement? you want what? dailies? pretty sure people bitched A LOT about MoP dailies that resulted in them removing dailies from WoD, then people bitched that the world is DEAD, nothing to do.

    WQ's are fine.
    At least dailies had a story and had a cap on them.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    Oh, that makes more sense then, since they more than likely won't be. If the systems are used, one can hope they're improved upon at least.
    I really enjoyed the idea behind the IE and WF, sadly they were kinda boring. That being said, I want blizz to take another crack at it, WoW endgame needs something new.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Teaon View Post
    so you want to ditch WQ without a proper replacement? you want what? dailies? pretty sure people bitched A LOT about MoP dailies that resulted in them removing dailies from WoD, then people bitched that the world is DEAD, nothing to do.

    WQ's are fine.
    Daylies of MOP were heavily criticised because you needed the rep to spend your PvE currency. Which was the second dumbest idea Blizzard ever had. It ranks so high because there was absolutely no reason to have this requirement. None. It was like: "Hey, we have good stuff on the vendors and people can only grind x currency each week anyway....sounds good! Does anybody have an idea how to totally fuck this up so bad that most players will bitch and moan about it?"
    If you look at the factions that were NOT connected to the currency vendors - Tillers + Anglers - they were FINE. Absolutely fine. If you were into the motive of these factions you went there, did your stuff and after x days you were able to buy something cool from the rep vendor and were done with it.

    Just have factions with very specific RP motives and a vendor who sells some cosmetics and maybe recipes (most recipe collectors don't mind boring grinds) and you are GOLDEN. That's how world content should be. Just don't force players who simply want to spend their raid currency to run the same daylies for weeks before they can use their currency vendor.

    Tillers in particular was one of the most fun rep grinds+daylies i ever had in WoW. I loved that faction. That's not to say there were not days i could not be bothered with it - sure there were. But the combination of lots of RP, daylies and and actual worthwhile way to farm profession mats all in one faction was awesome. Oh, and it even was a miniscule housing-system. I actually felt more at home on my little panda-farm than i ever did in my glorious WoD Garrison.
    Last edited by Nathasil; 2019-05-06 at 10:03 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Teaon View Post
    so you want to ditch WQ without a proper replacement? you want what? dailies? pretty sure people bitched A LOT about MoP dailies that resulted in them removing dailies from WoD, then people bitched that the world is DEAD, nothing to do.

    WQ's are fine.
    The issue of the MoP Dailies was how they were initially designed.

    First off, your only way to spend Valor points initially was for Items from Rep factions, which usually required honored or revered.

    On top of that, besides Klaxxi, every Faction that sold item for Valor points was gated behind Golden Lotus revered, you couldn't start on August Celestial / Shado-pan until you hit revered with Golden Lotus.

    While Golden Lotus was generally quick to grind, that was solely due the Vale being a massive Daily quest hub with like 10+ Daily quests depending on your story progress.
    Klaxxi, while not being gated behind Golden Lotus, also had a a good chunk of daily quests.

    So, if you grinded all gear relevant factions, you were looking at like ~20+ Daily quests per day, on a single character.


    The daily grind of initial MoP was utterly insane.

  6. #26
    Brewmaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    At least dailies had a story and had a cap on them.
    not really, saving Lao softfoot everyday is not a story telling, i still remember MoP BabyRages on dailies like yesterday, my memory is so fresh regarding that.


  7. #27
    The Unstoppable Force Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluvs View Post
    I really enjoyed the idea behind the IE and WF, sadly they were kinda boring. That being said, I want blizz to take another crack at it, WoW endgame needs something new.
    Second that, the potential is in place but they simply went too safe with certain things. Island Expeditions shouldn't be a "fill the bar"-race. Warfronts shouldn't be impossible to lose, not at any difficulty.
    Classic WoW is 10% gameplay and 90% talking about "how much better it is than Retail WoW" in in-game chats, Youtube Videos, Twitch or ALL the forums.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathasil View Post

    Tillers in particular was one of the most fun rep grinds+daylies i ever had in WoW. I loved that faction. That's not to say there were not days i could not be bothered with it - sure there were. But the combination of lots of RP, daylies and and actual worthwhile way to farm profession mats all in one faction was awesome. Oh, and it even was a miniscule housing-system. I actually felt more at home on my little panda-farm than i ever did in my glorious WoD Garrison.
    You mentioned the dreaded "G" word. Garrisons in my opinion, were hands down the #1 worst thing ever created in WoW. Garrisons made WoW feel like a single player game, and totally removed the MMO feel from WoW. My God Garrisons were such a bad idea, just so pointless and made me hate WoD even more.

  9. #29
    The Unstoppable Force Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaon View Post
    not really, saving Lao softfoot everyday is not a story telling, i still remember MoP BabyRages on dailies like yesterday, my memory is so fresh regarding that.

    Daily quests were many things, great for story delivery was not one of them.

    I too remember the babyrage surrounding MoP dailies. They're literally the reason why Blizzard tried something new with Legion. And I prefer WQ's by far, although there could probably be a balance between them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    You mentioned the dreaded "G" word. Garrisons in my opinion, were hands down the #1 worst thing ever created in WoW. Garrisons made WoW feel like a single player game, and totally removed the MMO feel from WoW. My God Garrisons were such a bad idea, just so pointless and made me hate WoD even more.
    Garrisons were just terrible for everything but gold generation.

    The MoP farm was small but functional, it could garner you some materials and you could customize it somewhat.
    Then they went full retard and made the Garrisons, and didn't even make them as customizable as they first said. If we'd have housing again, I'd prefer the MoP-style farm.
    Classic WoW is 10% gameplay and 90% talking about "how much better it is than Retail WoW" in in-game chats, Youtube Videos, Twitch or ALL the forums.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    You mentioned the dreaded "G" word. Garrisons in my opinion, were hands down the #1 worst thing ever created in WoW. Garrisons made WoW feel like a single player game, and totally removed the MMO feel from WoW. My God Garrisons were such a bad idea, just so pointless and made me hate WoD even more.
    Should have put the "glorious" in quotation marks. I did not like it either.

  11. #31
    I honestly don't think they know how to at this point.
    I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters.
    -Donald J Trump.

  12. #32
    hopefully not, i love current fury design i just want my kill macro back from legion lol

  13. #33
    Honestly, MoP class designs were the best

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by seleri View Post
    So all you want for max level PvE is raiding and mythic dungeons. WoD tried that, didn't go so well. M+ wouldn't have saved WoD, it wouldn't save this hypothetical expansion either.
    Honestly, don't shit on Scenarios.

    The normal ones were a little easy, but tune it right and I think Scenarios could have seen the perfect place for a casual crowd of players that they haven't been working on reaching out towards since then. Heroic Scenarios were a fun thing to do as a DPS while waiting for ques to pop.

    Fun classes + Scenarios + Current Game = Win in my book. (And no, Island Expeditions are not Scenarios. Make them mini dungeons again. Don't make them some random island with a time limit, let people play at their pace, and tell the story through scenarios so people can experience it without having to go hardcore.)

    But like all things, Blizzard took a good thing, said "Why would I ever need this again?" and threw it out. And like all those things, they have no intention of trying it again.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2019-05-06 at 10:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Honestly, don't shit on Scenarios.

    The normal ones were a little easy, but tune it right and I think Scenarios could have seen the perfect place for a casual crowd of players that they haven't been working on reaching out towards since then. Heroic Scenarios were a fun thing to do as a DPS while waiting for ques to pop.

    Fun classes + Scenarios + Current Game = Win in my book. (And no, Island Expeditions are not Scenarios. Make them mini dungeons again. Don't make them some random island with a time limit, let people play at their pace.)
    Islands are a good step forward for scenarios, imo. I prefer the more free form grinding with different types of enemies over the MoP scenarios with the same few steps every single time.

    Make the race a separate PvP only mode, continue to add different events, add another currency that lets you buy decent gear (probably LFR level), and they'd be perfect for what they are.

  16. #36
    The Lightbringer City Pop's Avatar
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    I'd love to go back to MoP class design with m+ and raid tokens. They could also replace wf/tf with valor upgrades. Give catch-up gear through a Timeless isle-like place where you do numerous different things around the island to get coins to buy the gear you want, but not insane ilvl catch-up gear like we have now. Scenarios with the island expedition AI could be great. Bring back meaningful factions that aren't just a generic zone faction and give them a progressive story through dailies. Make us adventurers again in a new world that feels like it's had tons of history. Mix in more class specific personal challenge stuff like the green fire quest... From my perspective, the game could be great if they did all that, but I think the current dev team's philosophy has drifted dramatically since MoP.

  17. #37
    Everything in MOP was pure trash except ToT and challenge mode (they introduced WF/TF in MOP btw)
    Classes - trash - i still remember healing aka everyone just spam their aoe
    Story - the worst story ever
    Dailies - forcing to farm dailies to get tokens? WTF?
    Design - flushy pandas and kungfu guys in a shiny world - yes that's what warcraft is about
    SCENARIOS - holy shit anyone remember this pure garbage (aka islands of bfa just with a shit ton of /afk during rp)

    Overall MoP is probably at the same level Cata was. The 2 worst expansions by far.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Teaon View Post
    so you want to ditch WQ without a proper replacement? you want what? dailies? pretty sure people bitched A LOT about MoP dailies that resulted in them removing dailies from WoD, then people bitched that the world is DEAD, nothing to do.

    WQ's are fine.
    People didn't bitch about dailies in general. They bitched about dailies being locked behind dailies and blizzard overreacted and pulled them all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    Design - flushy pandas and kungfu guys in a shiny world - yes that's what warcraft is about
    What? MoP had one of the darker stories and worlds in wow.

    And healers are about the only role that has gotten better, tanks and dps are so much worse as a whole then MoP, removing tanking stats was freaking stupid.

  19. #39
    I’d take MoP class design over BFA class design any day of the week. I don’t really want to go backwards in terms of content though. IEs are extremely boring imo but a large part of that is class design being really bad. I could sit in IEs all day if my class was actually fun to play. WoD ret, MoP holy, MoP ele/enh, MoP fury/arms, etc. I don’t think they should revert every spec to MoP class design as there were definitely some specs that were more fun in WoD/legion but that’d be hard to figure out.

    Either way, I think they should keep moving forward with content in the game. Keep trying new things. Remove the things that are obviously causing issues and not working well (titanforging, too much rng, class pruning, artifacts/azerite, etc) while improving on things that are working well. They really need to get rid of the rental gear like azerite/artifacts if they want class design to be good and luckily they talked about this in an interview which was great. Artifacts as a permanent progression system would’ve been cool imo with new weapons/skins every expac or something, the rental gear stuff has to stop though.

  20. #40
    Sadly not gonna happen. Instead of focusing on class design to make classes fun, they want every spec to be a one trick pony to stack when specific raid encounter, dungeon design or 3v3 comp synergy favours that specific trick. They're also making it so every class / spec is a major grind / time investment, so if your one trick pony gets nerfed or is weak in some content you'd like to explore, have fun, it ain't getting better and rerolling is a massive chore.

    They're also focusing on implementing "fire and forget" systems like m+ or world quests that once put into the game can be upscaled with little to no effort and pretend it's "evergreen content" that will last 2 years with little dev input. Low maintentance / cost features that are meant to be replayed ad nauseam.

    Just look at 8.2 it's more of regrind everything starting from profession patterns and ending on the relic / hoa artifact development. You thought you're gonna go to Nazjatar and actually have fun? Nah man, you'll have a list of things you absolutely have to do to unlock tons of necessities from artifact relics to flying. All in the same manner of world quests that are designed for maximum travel time to keep the activity metrics up. Bet tons of stuff is gonna be rep gated as well or behind the special grindable currencies that are Nazjatar only from what I see on ptr coverage.

    The times when once you got to exalted you were let off the hook to do whatever you pleased are gone too, now we have paragon reps and things gated behind rng drops from paragon rewards. Ap grind is another concept to make players logged in for the sake of being logged in, and the ramping mechanisms / ak exist to ensure players don't finish "too fast", but the more you care to "keep up with the Joneses" the more of a timesink it becomes.

    Generally it feels they're designing wow for playerbase that doesn't exist anymore, people who were happy to play wow 8h a day and just spend their time grinding away are a generation long gone or moved on with their life and have jobs, kids, etc. little time left, while new generation are people who want to consume content fast and check new games all the time, that's why games like apex legends rise to top and then fall into forgottenness super quickly.

    From Cata until MOP / WOD wow was trying to capitalise on "cyclical players" being content with people who pay 1 sub per patch, consume the content and then come back for next content update. From Legion on, not anymore, they want their cake and eat it too, there's still plenty of "catch ups" for cyclical / returning players but any given patch is filled with 10% content 90% extenders of shelf life of said content or rehashers of old content (like adding new rewards or new difficulty modes to already existing content with little necessary modification required, heroic warfronts for example...)

    And yeah, the class design seems to focus on making classes extremely one dimensional and unfun, you can see it in content like mdi or mythic crucible progression streams where only a very specific handful of specs have spot and even if we step down from "world first" perspective to general population we can see there's a mass of "don't give a fuck" people who claim classes are balanced just fine because they never do any challenging content, and the people who try to rise above that mass are immediately shut down by the game design that first asks you to devote to 1 character exorbitant amount of time, and then makes that character unviable if you weren't picking carefully and a prediction specialist of what will be "meta" in x content in y patch. For example warlock is a great pick for raiding but awful pick for m+, sucks to be one who wants to play both on the same character.

    One thing I miss from MOP is that classes had many more tools to deal with various scenarios. You had much more cc, off-healing, mobility and defensives, and now it's like "oh well let's hope healers heal me and priest lifegrips me in x scenario because I can do nothing myself". Or "stack warlocks because they can skip x mechanic while nearly no other class can". Back in MOP you were trying to solve a puzzle with multiple possible solutions, now often it's one correct answer (setup) with only small deviations permitted. And then you have specs that bring nothing useful, so no one really cares to bring them into groups.

    Even in WOD I remember having multiple options to assign for Xul'horac soaks, fast forward to Legion, oh shit you have to soak on Avatar? Better bring rogues because nobody can soak as efficiently as they can. And BFA is Legion pruned from artifacts, legendaries and tier sets, no wonder classes have even less tools to deal with anything.

    Legion had lots of class-specific content and BFA has allied races, but how do you keep motivation to play different characters when you have to interact with the world through the lens of overpruned class and every new character is a massive time investment, back in the days you just needed some gear, now you need ap, in legion you needed legendaries as well, and in bfa soon you will need the special 8.2 relics that seem to be a massive grind again.

    It feels like the most optimal strategy to play wow nowadays is to sub 1 month on expansion launch, see the content while it's new, fresh and plenty of it, then unsub until some x.3 patch when most of the grinds are lessened, tons of catchups put in, and worst class imbalances finally solved (how it takes them always over a year to fix it, only to break it again with every new expansion is a mystery to me).

    Also lots of people liked Timeless Isle (not me myself but heard this sentiment a lot) and imagine that was a patch and a place with no world quests / dailies and completely inconsequential rep, imagine people having fun without being hand held and having "daily goals" outlined in front of them. Maybe the sandbox / exploration feeling of the place is something wow misses nowadays, doing things on a timer (like camping the invasion spawn according to wowhead calendar / timer and rushing before it's over) kills any spontaneity you'd have in a game. I'm really worried for Nazjatar to be more "on a timer" events like invasions where you'd need external addons to track them and not miss them.

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