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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Again the drust had zero obligation to tolerate human settlers, coexistence is not always wanted and in this case it clearly wasn't. The drust had been there first and the humans could have easily returned home to Gilneas, but they chose to stay, they chose to fight, they didn't have to but they wanted to, because they felt like the new land belonged to them that's all there is to it.

    They go on about how the drust just attacked them and in the end they proved no better, once it became clear that they too would be willing to murder for the land.



    Oh I know exactly how colonization works, the thing is colonists have a right to jack shit, they just feel entitled to something that never before belonged to them in way shape or form.
    Clearly you don't, try to read some Beccaria and not only wow lore

  2. #322
    #GarithosWasRight

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Harbour View Post
    #GarithosWasRight


    If only we'd listened.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post

    If only we'd listened.
    I mean Garithos makes sense as a character. He lost everything because the elves only remembered they were allied to humans when it suited them. Ultimately he reinforces the point often made in this thread; the Thalasian elves are only loyal to themselves and will throw everyone else under the bus when it best suits them.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  5. #325
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    If only we'd listened.
    its our curse to bear, not listen the ones we should

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    What the hell is this?
    BfA writing. It's awful and it makes me wonder if they're intentionally making the Horde story trash in order to get more of them to join the Alliance...
    change can't wait.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    stormwind betrayed them when they sent a dwarf and night elven saboteurs to spy on them and fuck around at their last lifelines, the arcane sanctums.

    stormwind was a part of the alliance, the same alliance that garithos was a part of. it's nothing but further evidence of human duplicity.

    garithos started it, dalaran went along with it, stormwind joined it, and dalaran did it again.

    which is why umbric, and the silver covenant, are a level of traitor lower than just about anything else. humanity deserves nothing from the elves after all they've done.
    The point to really make in this thread is not that blood elves have turned into scumbag traitors but that they've been scumbag traitors all along since they existed.

    You keep bringing Garithos up and saying how Stormwind went along with it but they never did, Stormwind at that time knew nothing about him, Dalaran did and possibly Ironforge since they sent dwarven reinforcement up there...without probably knowing what was going since Garithos was a jerk to dwarves aswell.

    That said the only party who truly went along with it was Dalaran since they even kept Kael and co. in their prisons without batting an eye but still they are not part of the Alliance and Blood Elves should be at odds with the Kirin Tor, not some nation down south on the other part of the continent.
    But really, how can you keep saying that humans did so many bad things to the elves when, even regarding Garithos, they were the first "traitors and offenders" when they didn't help to defend his village just because they didn't care when they easily could.
    I'll quote you here on this, why couldn't they help a simple human village near their lands when humans were "their oldest ally and friends" and had done nothing save for literally making their existence possible?

    The reason is because thalassian elves were always haughty, presunptuos, selfish and arrogant as much as intelligent, beautiful and versed in magic, since their highborne days.
    It's part of their character just as much as dwarves are strong, love to drink and dig, orcs are noble savages but can barely kept themselves from genociding everything, draenei are righteous but naive, and so on.

    That said, Stormwind never hated any thalassian elf ever, high elves have been around the city since vanilla, void elves in their monstrous nature, are being treated like team players and Varian always tried to keep relations with Silvermoon friendly and even having a blood elf as one of his best friends.

    The blood elf starting area is also head scratching.
    You have this dwarf ambassador who was spying and night elves in Ghostlands.
    The dwarf was keeping an eye on the sanctums but wasn't sabotaging them, at a time when blood elves weren't allies either.
    Blood elves should have sent him back to Ironforge with a letter saying to keep their nose out of elves businesses, you know in a diplomatic matter, but instead they kill him outright and even cover his death to avoid a diplomatic incident.
    You know, in a very scumbag way.

    Night Elves on the other hand are the truly head scratching factor.
    Noone knows why they are there or who sent them in the first place, not even Blizzard according to their latest short stories.
    I can only see two possible outcomes:

    The first is that Fandral sent them: that would be a good way to show, you know, a true grey character and some inner conflicts in the night elven societies and could have made for a good story.
    Too bad Blizzard decided to turn him into a crazed maniac on fire some expansions later.

    The second is that Blood Elves starting zone happens after the Draenei one.
    This would mean that the new Draenei allies would have warned the Alliance of these Blood elves guys who murdered them and allied with demons.
    The Alliance in response, not knowing what was going on in Quel'Thalas, would have wanted to make some lights on the events; Ironforge would have sent their ambassador to see what was going on and Night Elves some forces to see what that deal with demons and stuff was about.
    This could have explained their presence in Quel'Thalas which, to this day, barely makes sense, even in Blizzard's eyes.

    The truth, however, probably lies in game mechanics.
    Blood Elves were included into the Horde only because Blizzard at the time had so many requests from asian players to want them in the faction to have pretty characters aswell.
    The point is that at the time the whole concept of "elves who remained in Quel'Thalas" didn't exist.
    After WC3 events you either had the Silvermoon Remnants aka Alliance High Elves (which actually was a datamined Alliance faction back in Vanilla) and Blood Elves who pretty much were all Kael's followers and a threat to anyone.
    Blizzard took the concept of the second group, the "we will persevere" "the dark times will pass" "survive at all cost" guys, and added lore to justify the inclusion of a third group in Quel'thalas who became Blood Elves but didn't go all mana terrorists on everyone else.
    The dwarf and night elven npcs were pretty much added to cement their Horde status and to antagonize the Alliance but the entire concept wasn't that well thought and to this day we barely know what was going on.

    That said even after all that and after the Blood Elves joined the Horde, the Alliance went on and saved them again in the biggest way possible by restoring the Sunwell which is a huge deal.
    Why Blizzard decided that it had to be the Alliance to do this? Why couldn't the Horde do that instead and cement them as allies? We don't know why but lore is lore and the facts are written like that.

    In true Thalassian fashion, however, everything is glossed over.
    In short, Garithos and Dalaran's purge which are barely related to the modern Alliance members are always on everyone's mouth but noone talks about how the elves, indebted to the humans since their landing in EK, barely helped with the second war (and only because they were on fire aswell), didn't help Garithos when they easily could creating the jerk he is and watched the other way when Lordaeron was in chaos, not to mention that even after joining the Horde the Alliance they blame so much went on and saved their entire civilization and was always ready to keep pacific relations.
    But that's ok though because it actually is in character, Thalassian society have always been all about themselves in a selfish and arrogant way while glossing over what others did for them, the recent events in the Horde are, ironically, extremely on point on how they would act.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    And they are in conflict with trolls because trolls have a policy of killing everyone else. Always had. We have no indication that the trolls approached the humans and were killed for it; every story makes it seem like they were being raided by trolls just for showing up. And it's not like the humans were settling on holy lands like the elves did because that is never mentioned.
    Only way to have "peace" with trolls historically was from a position of absolute power, the only ones with diplomatic relations with them were Azshara who could wipe them off the map but wouldn't bother wasting forces and the Thunder King who largely believed he could do the same and treated them as second class citizens loitering in his yard. The Darkspear were "diplomatic" because they were almost dead and so were the Amani under Zul'jin.
    No that's not true. Trolls were respecting pacts and Alliances. You have proof of that in history. First we know of Alliance of Mogu and Zandalari despite the fact that they really didn't like one another but they still exchanged knowledge and aid one another.

    Another example you have fresh in BfA where Tortollans and sethrak were depicted to coexist very nicely.

    Drakkari shared their territory with Vol'war.

    And Darkspears didn't mind Murlock neighbours.

    Amani made alliance with the orcish Horde.

    Thoradin didn't want to provoke Amani - proves that Amani did let humans live outside of their territories.

    But since trolls are extremely territorial each time you're tresspassing their borders you're asking for trouble. Chronicles wrote clearly that agressors were first night elves, not trolls. Trolls were content with territories they had, and you could clearly see on the map that their coexistance was possible so long Elves didn't push to their territories.

    If Zandalari were capable of having a pact with Mogu whom they despised, they would be capable to do likewise with night elves.


    As for Highborne -> helves. They were indeed the scumbags that were the ones that broke the pact Trolls had with them "that so long trolls will stay within their borders they will be left alone".

    And who broke that pact? Elves of corse the moment the pact was no longer befitting them.

    You also have it quite nicely laid out since Vanilla that elves purposely prushed forward to troll heartlands :

    https://www.wowhead.com/object=17573...-of-quelthalas

    Trolls might not be the nicest guys and I like them for that, but saying that they're nothing more than murder hobos incapable of coexistance and alliance is a big stretch.

    They're territorial, that's their thing.
    Last edited by Ramz; 2019-05-16 at 03:55 PM.

  9. #329
    I am Murloc! Selastan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Don't bother trying to express a very easy to understand and logical conclusion with these guys, at this stage these kinds of fans will use the most embarrassing mental gymnastics so their sylvanas fan bubble can't be popped.

    I've seen it before, it always goes this way, same happened with garrosh.
    That 'Sylvanas fan bubble' is called loyalty. It's hard to enjoy a story you can't immerse yourself in. Sylvanas is the rightful Warchief, and I am no traitor. How's that for logic? Stop thinking so meta, and enjoy the ride from your character's view for once.

  10. #330
    If your leader is a scumbag and mass murderer, you have to do what is honorable and oppose her, very simple.

  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswen View Post
    *Whole post snip*
    Pretty much, yeah. The Blood Elves being in the Horde has never made sense, which is why Blizzard has to invent new plot contrivances every expansion or two to keep justifying it.

    In the end, the only reason they haven't defected to the Alliance yet is because gameplay-wise, they can't. The Void Elves are probably as close as we're ever going to get to this happening.
    Last edited by EbonBehelit-; 2019-05-17 at 08:53 AM.
    "Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice, without constraint." - Alexander Hamilton

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by lockybalboa View Post
    If your leader is a scumbag and mass murderer, you have to do what is honorable and oppose her, very simple.
    Scumbag? Maybe. Mass murderer? Sure but still murdering the enemy. So unless I got it all wrong and I'm not at war with the Alliance which makes them my enemy, then I have nothing to hold against Sylvanas. And honorable? You sure you know what that even means?

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Scumbag? Maybe. Mass murderer? Sure but still murdering the enemy. So unless I got it all wrong and I'm not at war with the Alliance which makes them my enemy, then I have nothing to hold against Sylvanas. And honorable? You sure you know what that even means?
    It means crying yourself to sleep in an Alliance prison cell because you struck one Night Elf from behind just after you merrily scaled the slopes of Hyjal with an army of assassins to strike much more than one Night Elf from behind while they were facing Sylvanas' main force. All the while wishing for someone to kill you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Scumbag? Maybe. Mass murderer? Sure but still murdering the enemy. So unless I got it all wrong and I'm not at war with the Alliance which makes them my enemy, then I have nothing to hold against Sylvanas. And honorable? You sure you know what that even means?
    So Mr Edge lord, you'd consider butchering a bunch of innocent civilians honorable ey? I'm you'd fit well with the Talibans and terrorists, go sign up.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2019-05-17 at 07:40 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by lockybalboa View Post
    So Mr Edge lord, you'd consider butchering a bunch of innocent civilians honorable ey? I'm you'd fit well with the Talibans and terrorists, go sign up.

    Infracted.
    Only when Saurfang does it. Cause we all know he does not like Sylvanas and that's HONORABLE!!!

    It's kind of upsetting to see how many people think this is just another black and white story, at the same time the same people are unable to elaborate how they differentiate between the two colors. They just do and if you don't agree with them then you worship Satan in real life. Or join terrorists, apparently.

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