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  1. #41
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Lor'themar's first line was fine and was appropriate motivation.

    His new line is execrable and contradictory considering Lor'themar himself observed how Baine's actions put his own people at risk and how Lor'themar, despite finding his heart to be in the right place, would prefer to tread carefully. Framing it as Bob being shocked that Baine would be executed for treason and making an emotional decision to save him is simply out of character and poor, given that even the deaths of his own people back in the day had him act subtly and methodically to defect to the Alliance or later to build a powerbase to use against Garrosh.
    I think it is supposed to be a form of poetic irony on Lor'themar's part - as he is, in effect, making the same kind of decision Baine did. He's acting in accordance with what this morals tell him, not knowing if his own people will agree or back him (and thus putting them in the same danger he worried Baine had done for the Tauren). I like that comparison from a narrative standpoint.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The issue is his motivation and him becoming a mouthpiece for the writers shilling Baine, despite it being highly out of character as Baine's methods and values and his own do not align. The current lines calling Baine the representation of all that is good in the Horde are abominable.

    Revert it to the original lines and it's fine. It's a Mists rehash anyway, so hoping the end result would be any different is pointless.
    Define "issue" and "highly out of character" in this context.
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    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  3. #43
    High Overlord Sharby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewshine View Post
    Nathanos said the escape was allowed by Slyvanas, if you want to get mad at the plan of sunreavers being used as fodder. Then blame Sylvanas for not giving them the back up force needed.

    In other words she used them for her own needs and not the hordes needs like always.
    I feel like a lot of people glossed over this post.
    Honorary member of the Baine fanclub, the only member really.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think it is supposed to be a form of poetic irony on Lor'themar's part - as he is, in effect, making the same kind of decision Baine did. He's acting in accordance with what this morals tell him, not knowing if his own people will agree or back him (and thus putting them in the same danger he worried Baine had done for the Tauren). I like that comparison from a narrative standpoint.
    Yet it is against what his entire character stands for, Lor'themar tosses his own morals aside all the time for pragmatic decisions, why would baine be more precious to him than his own people for example, why would he suddenly set Baine as a line not to be crossed.

    These two have never been close, if he would make some comments about baine being necessary, due to his connections for the days to come, the whole thing would become much better, not this oh noes Baine is in danger lets roll out.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2019-05-08 at 08:49 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    I feel like a lot of people glossed over this post.
    No, they are willingly ignoring it, make no mistake.

    Meanwhile, they're accusing others of mental gymnastics.
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    The Ottomans brought civilization to Greece.
    Oh my...

  6. #46
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    He's a leader who values his people enough to turn against those who would be a greater threat to them.
    Let's not pretend this was done for his people.

    Freeing Baine, someone rightfully imprisoned for treason and helping the Alliance, causing him to get embroidered in a stupid civil war, where he's not even sure if his people will fight on his side, is stupid.

    He even says he's doing this for Baine.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Are you really that lost on the plot?

    Lor'themar values the horde and it's survival matters to him. He clearly she's the obvious fact that sylvanas is an internal threat, if she came for Baine, how long before she came for him and his people?
    This is the same circular logic as @Skulltaker was engaging in on the previous page. Sylvanas came after Baine because he killed Horde soldiers and aided the Alliance. Which Lor'themar was not doing before. The only reason he could possibly become a target (of just punishment for literal treason) is by doing what he did now. So justifying that choice with "welp, she came after Baine for treason" doesn't make sense whatsoever because it's this very choice that would put the Baine-like target on him in the first place.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    And despite the obvious threat of war from the alliance, he unlike sylvanas understands diplomacy, if he can perform an action that creates a less hostile interaction with the enemy faction, it opens the door for diplomacy with them, and ending a war.
    Except ending the war with the Alliance while they're still standing is inherently worthless. Because the peace with the Alliance is inherently worthless. If they are going to pick a fight with the Horde over their horseshit delusions even during Satan-led apocalypse, they are too unhinged for anyone to treat peace with them seriously. Especially in situation where the perpetrators of that in the Alliance then go unpunished, even if the High King openly admits they were not only in the wrong, but broke his own orders in the process as well. The Alliance is a faction ruled by someone who's merely all talk but no action about peace and who's either too spineless, too biased in favor of the Alliance or too arbitrary to do anything when the Alliance fucks up and acts against his precious peace. And who can't keep warmongers like Genn and Rogers in check for shit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    This 'he's a traitor's boll*cks only comes from people to held on character fanaticism with the very obviously evil character here.
    Or from people who actually understand what treason means.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    This is circular logic. Sylvanas wouldn't be the enemy of tomorrow for him in the potential civil war if he didn't side against her right now. You can't justify siding against her in a civil war with her being the enemy in that potential civil war as this very choice determines that status of Sylvanas in said war in the first place.
    He can observe where the Horde is headed, and he can make a descision where he and the Blood Elfs want to stand. Don't know what qualifies as circular where you come from, but it's pretty straight forward.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Yet it is against what his entire character stands for, Lor'themar tosses his own morals aside all the time for pragmatic decisions, why would baine be more precious to him than his own people for example, why would he suddenly set Baine as a line not to be crossed.

    These two have never been close, if he would make some comments about baine being necessary, due to his connections for the days to come, the whole thing would become much better, not this oh noes Baine is in danger lets roll out.
    Why would Baine care more about a single human than an entire Elven nation his own people has close relations to just because of the Druids? It's just another part of the story that does not make sense....but the answer is the same: Because the writers needed certain characters to act at moment B instead of moment A.

    On a similar note: What the Horde still does in Darkshore is essentially Scourge2. And it's not secret or hidden by any means. How many Druids+Paladins of the Horde have spoken out against that? None. Because they are supposed to do that at moment C.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    You're telling me the same group that betrayed the Alliance to join their mortal enemies, then betrayed the Kirin Tor and helped Garrosh get his hands on an artifact for murderous purposes betrayed someone!?
    Except they didn't "betray the Alliance" to join the Horde. They weren't in the Alliance at the time and even though they were in talks to rejoin the Alliance used the guise of diplomacy to sabotage their defenses and invade Ghostlands. So if anyone betrayed anyone here, it'd be the Alliance. And one Sunreaver agent aiding Garrosh does not reflect on the race as a hole. Not that it was really treason either. Jaina took sides in the Horde-Alliance conflict prior to the theft of the Divine Bell. So the Sunreaver agent of Garrosh merely followed his glorious leader's glorious example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  11. #51
    Jaina and Lor'themar don't team up to save Baine. Lor'themar isn't even in the scenario to save Baine from what I've seen, he just, presumably, tells Saurfang and Thrall. And even they don't intentionally team up with Alliance to save Baine. They run into Jaina and Shaw who are there to do the same thing and decide to help each other since their goal is the same.

    Jaina and Lor'themar (and Shandris and Thalyssra) team up to stop Azshara because they know she'll kill them all, and then the rest of the world, if they don't.

    Lor'themar may have respected Sylvanas in life and been grateful for her help in getting them accepted into the Horde, but he's also smart enough to see she's quickly becoming Arthas. Y'know, the guy that butchered Quel'thalas and caused quel'dorei take the name "blood elves/sin'dorei" because of it. I doubt he'd want to stay allied with someone like that and the rebellion is his best hope of his people surviving.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathasil View Post
    Why would Baine care more about a single human than an entire Elven nation his own people has close relations to just because of the Druids? It's just another part of the story that does not make sense....but the answer is the same: Because the writers needed certain characters to act at moment B instead of moment A.

    On a similar note: What the Horde still does in Darkshore is essentially Scourge2. And it's not secret or hidden by any means. How many Druids+Paladins of the Horde have spoken out against that? None. Because they are supposed to do that at moment C.
    Which is why the story is hot garbage and it seems it will stay that way.

  13. #53
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Yet it is against what his entire character stands for, Lor'themar tosses his own morals aside all the time for pragmatic decisions, why would baine be more precious to him than his own people for example, why would he suddenly set Baine as a line not to be crossed.

    These two have never been close, if he would make some comments about baine being necessary, due to his connections for the days to come, the whole thing would become much better, not this oh noes Baine is in danger lets roll out.
    Baine specifically isn't precious to him - but what Baine is standing for, the opposite of what Sylvanas is standing for, does. Burying his morals out of pragmatism had indeed been a recurring pattern for Lor'themar, and the source of many of his regrets. The High Elven exile, the forced march into Northrend, etc. etc. He's making a different kind of decision now, and growing as a character.

    It's not about any kind of personal relationship he has with Baine, per se; it's about the principles he stands for and what he thinks is the direction of Sylvanas' Horde.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    And one Sunreaver agent aiding Garrosh does not reflect on the race as a hole.
    Man, I sure hope you're not one of those Hordelets who blame the whole Alliance for the Lich King then (an orc soul who happened to take over the mind and body of a human paladin).
    No ideology has been more murderous or detrimental to human dignity than Communism
    Quote Originally Posted by kidkilla View Post
    The Ottomans brought civilization to Greece.
    Oh my...

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    It's not even that I expect him to uphold the Horde values, whatever those might be. I don't even expect anything from his character past self preservation.
    You don't? Well, you should, because Lor'themar is Horde's fan number two (first being Baine of course). And how can the Horde's values (that are obviously set in stone because the Warchiefs following Thrall totally didn't have the same absolute dictatorial powers as him that'd allow them to change the values of the Horde as they pleased) be unknown to anyone at this point?

    Value number 1, green guilt for Horde's previous actions, even if you have nothing to do with them. The atonement is starving in a shithole wasteland. Trying to get more resources to improve the quality of life in the shithole wasteland is heretical. Value number 2, love Alliance more than you love the Horde. Betray the Horde for the Alliance if needed. Exile Horde members wanting to fight the Alliance in a war started by the Alliance. Ignore Alliance's acts of aggression even if you have Alliance intrusions next to the capital of your Tauren allies.

    That's it really. Nice and short. So there's no excuse not to know the sacred values of the Horde.


    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    That being said, why the hell is he siding with someone who has tried to sabotage and outright kill his people?
    But they weren't his people. They were Horde members fighting against the holy Alliance. Hence, heretics. And heretics must be purged.


    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    And to be honest I'm getting really tired of people saying that Sylvanas is the "worse" enemy. From the belf perspective, based on the past story, the Belfs have the LEAST reason to side with the Alliance and even less Proudmoore and MOST reasons to side with the Forsaken specifically.
    That's obviously not true. Sylvanas would totally punish the Blood Elves for treasons (like she did Baine) even before they betrayed him (unlike like she did Baine, because that argument is totes consistent). It is known. So obviously the answer to her vile ways of punishing treason and upholding the rule of law in the process is to betray her and give her a reason to punish you for treason. If you say that 20 times in a row really, really fast while stabbing a printed picture of Sylvanas it starts to make sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think it is supposed to be a form of poetic irony on Lor'themar's part - as he is, in effect, making the same kind of decision Baine did. He's acting in accordance with what this morals tell him, not knowing if his own people will agree or back him (and thus putting them in the same danger he worried Baine had done for the Tauren). I like that comparison from a narrative standpoint.
    I can't actually dispute this as a valid interpretation, i.e taking Lor'themar as believing Baine is more virtuous than he himself is and thus choosing to take this decision in a Baine-like fashion. Beyond laughing at why anyone would want to be like Baine though, I'd still argue it's poor as it's not in keeping with his character and how he acted in more severe situations prior, which is the main issue here. Lor'themar previously covertly tried to defect to the Alliance and then built up his separate powerbase rather than gasping with shock that the Warchief would kill someone who was committing treason, to answer @Mehrunes .

    As for the prior line, it was the one about the debt he owes the Horde. Still nonsense, but nowhere as egregious.

    @Sharby

    That's because it's irrelevant. Nathanos even knowing is questionably canon and Bob is unaware of it when rendering his decision. He would have supported killing them regardless of whether Sylvanas did as well because she's contracted a Baine-like desire to kill her own side to aid her enemy and indeed does so since neither he nor any of the rebels are ever privy to this information.

    Though while we're on that note, reminder that Lor'themar, Saurfang and so on are all acting on a false pretense since the loyalist path confirms that the tauren shaman was making it all up as Sylvanas didn't want Baine executed.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Baine specifically isn't precious to him - but what Baine is standing for, the opposite of what Sylvanas is standing for, does. Burying his morals out of pragmatism had indeed been a recurring pattern for Lor'themar, and the source of many of his regrets. The High Elven exile, the forced march into Northrend, etc. etc. He's making a different kind of decision now, and growing as a character.
    His pragmatism is his best character trait, take it away and you will ruin him. Lor'themar was one of the best characters, because he wasn't like the rest of the braindead crew going on about hur dur I am going to blight you all to hell, or Justice and light in your face.

    It's not about any kind of personal relationship he has with Baine, per se; it's about the principles he stands for and what he thinks is the direction of Sylvanas' Horde.
    Baine does not stand for the horde, because the horde has no common culture ,principles, honor code, belief etc. which is precisely why this whole honor nonsense does not work. But blizz tries to use it as a Narrative regardless and it is laughably bad.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Lor'themar's first line was fine and was appropriate motivation.

    His new line is execrable and contradictory considering Lor'themar himself observed how Baine's actions put his own people at risk and how Lor'themar, despite finding his heart to be in the right place, would prefer to tread carefully. Framing it as Bob being shocked that Baine would be executed for treason and making an emotional decision to save him is simply out of character and poor, given that even the deaths of his own people back in the day had him act subtly and methodically to defect to the Alliance or later to build a powerbase to use against Garrosh.
    How is it contradictory? Lor'themar made the observation that Baine put his people at risk because he admired it and saw a similarity to how he himself rules the Blood Elves. Alliance first, his own race dead last, that's the true Horde spirit!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by seleri View Post
    Lor'themar may have respected Sylvanas in life and been grateful for her help in getting them accepted into the Horde, but he's also smart enough to see she's quickly becoming Arthas. Y'know, the guy that butchered Quel'thalas and caused quel'dorei take the name "blood elves/sin'dorei" because of it. I doubt he'd want to stay allied with someone like that and the rebellion is his best hope of his people surviving.
    That's so illogical.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    How is it contradictory? Lor'themar made the observation that Baine put his people at risk because he admired it and saw a similarity to how he himself rules the Blood Elves. Alliance first, his own race dead last, that's the true Horde spirit!
    It's true, I can't actually argue with the notion that Lor'themar laments that he lacked the strength of character Baine did in prioritizing the Alliance over his own people and was doing this to repent for not emulating him sooner.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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