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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    They won't kill her or let her become a villain.... she will be redeemed.
    Is that even possible ? sure the act of burning teldrassil tree might be redemable, but she had won the battle, she could have let the civilians evacuate before burning it but choosed to burn it with them still there.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    I get some people enjoy playing the villain, and that's fine, but I think Blizz has dug themselves into a hole with Sylvanas, where if they kill her or have her go off and be villainous, it makes everyone look stupid for ever having trusted her or worked with the Forsaken...

    And if they DON'T they made the paranoid orwellian dictator the -right- choice over the folks that want peace / any kind of moral code.

    Worse yet, there are folks who don't see Sylv as villainous despite the stuff she's done in the past, all cause it was done to 'the enemy', and citing WoW not having real world war-laws, when... even by using WOW's cultures Sylv and the Forsaken are considered sadistic and unrepentant about the harm they cause (which is a shame because actual pragmatism would be fun, but we haven't seen that, just a lot of card-carrying villainy)
    Sylvanas is still a nice girl compared to Orgrim Doomhamer.
    So if you don't puke when you enter the capital of the horde, why would you have a problem with Sylvanas? Racism maybe?
    Last edited by Tarba; 2019-05-09 at 06:53 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    That's what I'm getting at though. The message is impossible to carry through the mechanics. In Undertale, to keep to that example, the game tells you right out that if you do violence in it's your choice and everything has a peaceful solution, to use the same example.

    In Mists, the story is ostensibly about what's worth fighting for and what method is too far or what have you, but it exemplifies pretty much the apex of what I'm talking about when you defeat the Sha of Violence by violently wailing on it with axes. It's not that it literally can't contain such a message, it's that such a message comes across as unconvincing and contradictory because you're told not shown. Set aside all the plot for a moment - at the end of this expansion, once the factions are united, Baine and Anduin hold hands and kiss in their marriage ceremony and everyone is Lawful Good, you, the PC, will still be running around condemning random people's souls to hell so you can use them as fuel to summon demons and be acquiring items to increase your ability to do so.
    The mechanics can't really be integrated like they are in proper RPGs, sure, because they can only really give us so much choice. ...But you can play a shooter that, mechanically, is just about you repeatedly making skulls explode, and yet still carries a message about the greater cause that violence is in service of, or simply shows you negative consequences of said violence. A fantastic example would be Spec Ops: The Line.

    And I would argue that MoP at least attempted to do that, and while it didn't really do a good job in the sense of portraying actual consequences of the violence we, the players, used, I don't think there's anything but writing skill and a genuine interest keeping them from doing something like that in the future.

  4. #24
    What Danuser and the others on the narrative team are gonna have her do. Is go off for a while for an expansion or two. In hopes players forgot about Darkshore and Teldrassil. Only to return with a dramatic entrance, most likely a cinematic at blizzcon. Then pretend to ignore everything that she has done in BFA. While trying to push a different story at that point in time. It's there only way out of the hole there in atm. Personally, idc if she sacrifices herself it wouldn't change that I still hate the character. Personally would be enjoyable to know shes in her own hell. But watch its gonna happen, they'll bring her back after they feel the drama has died down and players have forgotten about darkshore and Teldrassil.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by SirKickBan View Post
    The mechanics can't really be integrated like they are in proper RPGs, sure, because they can only really give us so much choice. ...But you can play a shooter that, mechanically, is just about you repeatedly making skulls explode, and yet still carries a message about the greater cause that violence is in service of, or simply shows you negative consequences of said violence. A fantastic example would be Spec Ops: The Line.

    And I would argue that MoP at least attempted to do that, and while it didn't really do a good job in the sense of portraying actual consequences of the violence we, the players, used, I don't think there's anything but writing skill and a genuine interest keeping them from doing something like that in the future.
    Yes, and one of the main criticisms of Spec Ops is a complaint you hear now as regards WoW. The game is shaming you for behaviour you had no choice but to participate in. Its message is better woven in with the gameplay therein, but it remains disingenuous.

    But to clarify, the attempt is the issue. The game cannot carry it because the game and the setting cannot carry moral examination. These things I mentioned as regards the mechanics are unalterable. You will never be able to learn that certain things we're now told are wrong - like necromancy, violating people's free will or killing, as these are core mechanical elements of what you do constantly and what you're supposed to enjoy doing.

    You can never learn your lesson and it's not desirable to do so. When you roll a Death Knight, the class fantasy is of being this tortured inhuman killing machine kind of dude fighting the baddies, ditto demon hunters. The Forsaken tell you right from the blurb who you are and what you're about and it's this identity of fifteen years that is currently the object of demolition. To what end? Fuck all. Both the 'heroes' and the villains' views are inapplicable nonsense that no one in real life believes in. No one in real life wages war to eliminate abstract concepts like hope and no one in real life seriously believes that genocide carried out enthusiastically by enemy nations upon your own should be treated with a slap on the wrist because some of the participants feel bad.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-05-09 at 07:01 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    That's what I'm getting at though. The message is impossible to carry through the mechanics. In Undertale, to keep to that example, the game tells you right out that if you do violence in it's your choice and everything has a peaceful solution, to use the same example.

    In Mists, the story is ostensibly about what's worth fighting for and what method is too far or what have you, but it exemplifies pretty much the apex of what I'm talking about when you defeat the Sha of Violence by violently wailing on it with axes. It's not that it literally can't contain such a message, it's that such a message comes across as unconvincing and contradictory because you're told not shown. More than that, you literally can't be shown as it's mechanically impossible.

    Set aside all the in-story actions we do for a moment - at the end of this expansion, once the factions are united, Baine and Anduin hold hands and kiss in their marriage ceremony and everyone is Lawful Good, you, the PC, will still be running around condemning random people's souls to hell so you can use them as fuel to summon demons and be acquiring items to increase your ability to do so.
    Being fair, gameplay and story segregation is a huge deal in WoW. In most games, once you kill a boss or clear and area it's over and done, in this game I could go and kill Garrosh 400 times before I could loot the shoulder armor that he's clearly wearing. The Horde and Alliance are still fighting over Alterac Valley 15 years after I personally won the battle in vanilla, and I am apparently capable of holding 250 mounts bigger than a horse, 200 pets, and a couple dozen pieces of plate armor in my pocket. I'm told the Night Elves and Draenei heavily distrust Fel magic but I can still walk in Darnassus with a summoned infernal and go say hi to their top religious and political figure while nobody says a word. I'm the Highlord of the Silver Hand or whatever, along with every other Paladin in existence who also have a copy of my one-of-a-kind legendary Artifact. I'm told I'm the tip of the Horde spear in Pandaria, but there are dozens of other doofus running around throwing dung at fish people. So on and so forth.

    I agree with what you say, mind, but it bothers a lot less than if an RPG did that, because in these games immersion and integrating story and gameplay are paramount. In WoW the notion of immersion has always been a total joke since day 1, so I just roll with it. Yes it makes no sense that my character, who would happily genocide entire species for reroll tokens in order to get the aforementioned cool transmog, would care at all about morality, but the PC is a lore non-entity, we only exist because there's no gameplay otherwise. It's not like we're Geralt of Rivia or the Warden in Dragon Age and the entire story revolves around the player character.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Yes, and one of the main criticisms of Spec Ops is a complaint you hear now as regards WoW. The game is shaming you for behaviour you had no choice but to participate in. Its message is better woven in with the gameplay therein, but it remains disingenuous.

    But to clarify, the attempt is the issue. The game cannot carry it because the game and the setting cannot carry moral examination. These things I mentioned as regards the mechanics are unalterable. You will never be able to learn that certain things we're now told are wrong - like necromancy, violating people's free will or killing, as these are core mechanical elements of what you do constantly and what you're supposed to enjoy doing.

    You can never learn your lesson and it's not desirable to do so. When you roll a Death Knight, the class fantasy is of being this tortured inhuman killing machine kind of dude fighting the baddies, ditto demon hunters. The Forsaken tell you right from the blurb who you are and what you're about and it's this identity of fifteen years that is currently the object of demolition. To what end? Fuck all. Both the 'heroes' and the villains' views are inapplicable nonsense that no one in real life believes in. No one in real life wages war to eliminate abstract concepts like hope and no one in real life seriously believes that genocide carried out enthusiastically by enemy nations upon your own should be treated with a slap on the wrist because some of the participants feel bad.
    And the moral message doesn't need to be that simplistic, either.

    So.. -I have to run for work here, but a brief example of how you could make a very short message that, while it doesn't really wrap up the fact that a player can go back into old expansions and keep killing as much as they like, would be more of a 'wrapping up the arc' kind of deal.

    Have the Old Gods return, or whatever big bad you want, really, that's spooky enough to make both sides call some kind of truce, ceasefire, or whatever. -And make it clear to both sides that, due to losses inflicted during their (in the grand scheme of things) pointless and unnecessary war, even working together they don't have the strength to oppose whatever big bad has just showed up on their doorstep.

    You, as the player, aren't really 'learning your lesson', and that's just fine, the game isn't nearly personal enough to allow for that kind of interaction or examination, but the story, the framework through which you interact with the game, is acknowledging the implications of its events, laying out an implicit moral, having its cast of characters react to said implications and moral, and ideally not deciding to turn around and shit all over it for no reason when the next expansion needs some extra conflict to 'spice things up'.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    Sylvanas is still a nice girl compared to Orgrim Doomhamer.
    I'm curious what you're getting at with this. Orgrim Doomhammer betrayed the draenei, but then he overthrew Blackhand, disbanded the Shadow Council, and failed to destroy the Alliance of Lordaeron in WC2, ending with everyone in the horde in camps. He did a lot to counter the corruption in the Horde and barely did anything truly atrocious to the Alliance. Sylvanas has committed treason to the Horde, destroyed a neutral kingdom, and razed Teldrassil. Is there some atrocity that Orgrim was part of that I'm forgetting about?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuppetShowJustice View Post
    I don't see how she could possibly redeem herself. Although Blizzard clearly doesn't care to actually justify themselves since Grommash declared Draenor free from the threat of himself at the end of WoD and that went over okay.

    Even if she does something super heroic there is no way the Night Elves would ever accept a situation where they stop calling for her head now.
    Thanks for reminding me of the Mag'har scenario and how badly Blizz fucked them up. They went from "uncorrupted orcs don't take shit but are also pretty content to just do their thing with nature, meeting periodically to avoid all out war" to "uncorrupted orcs will immediately seek out the first pair of boots to lick and are so dazzlingly myopic it's amazing they can see anything past their victim complex."

    Like, my dudes, what did you expect when you tried to push the draenei off the map, and did nothing to actually make amends, instead relying on 'Hey so we banded together out of worst-case mutual survival, we good now, right?' to carry relations going forward. But of course, because the Mag'har are good boys who are misunderstood, the draenei weren't justifiably pissed and getting their pound of flesh for the near-genocide that was only halted thanks to offworlders, no, they obviously had to go nuts and become zealots to want the Mag'har brought into line.

    It's like... a perfect microcosm of how badly they fucked up orc lore since WotLK and the gymnastics they pull.
    Battle for Azeroth: Now with more Morally Grey™!*

    ​*Morally Grey is about as morally complex as an episode of Whacky Racers.



  10. #30
    Warchief Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Sylvanas is a literary nightmare that threatens to consume WoW's remaining lore
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    I'm curious what you're getting at with this. Orgrim Doomhammer betrayed the draenei, but then he overthrew Blackhand, disbanded the Shadow Council, and failed to destroy the Alliance of Lordaeron in WC2, ending with everyone in the horde in camps. He did a lot to counter the corruption in the Horde and barely did anything truly atrocious to the Alliance. Sylvanas has committed treason to the Horde, destroyed a neutral kingdom, and razed Teldrassil. Is there some atrocity that Orgrim was part of that I'm forgetting about?
    Burned Stormwind to the ground, then targeted Lordaeron.
    Killed countless innocent on the way.
    Backstabbed orcs to get rid of Blackhand and get power, then used the same tactics (hello good guy guldan)
    Defiled alliance dead soldiers to raise them as undead with the spirit of orcs.
    Used raped mind enslaved red dragons.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    Burned Stormwind to the ground, then targeted Lordaeron.
    Killed countless innocent on the way.
    Backstabbed orcs to get rid of Blackhand and get power, then used the same tactics (hello good guy guldan)
    Defiled alliance dead soldiers to raise them as undead with the spirit of orcs.
    Used raped mind enslaved red dragons.
    Sylvanas burned Teldrassil then targeted Kul'tiras (after blighting a neutral Gilneas).
    Sylvanas is now (apparently, based on interviews with Afrasiabi) partly behind the attack on the Horde at the Wrathgate. Then she ignored her Warchief's orders to not deploy blight in Gilneas. After becoming Warchief, she continued to use it against the Alliance in Legion and Battle for Azeroth.
    She raised both Alliance and Horde dead as undead.
    She mind enslaved Alliance forces (namely Garithos). She murdered her own people for rejecting her vision of eternal undeath and for wanting to see their still-living families.

    I'm not saying that Orgrim was good. I'm just saying that Sylvanas isn't "a good girl" in comparison.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    Burned Stormwind to the ground, then targeted Lordaeron.
    Killed countless innocent on the way.
    Orgrim was an asshole, yet he was driven to keep waging war to keep the Orcs from killing each other (like the orcs from Draenor did) due to the fel blood coursing through most of their veins. He did not wish for the destruction and genocide that is apparently Sylvanas' goal:

    If they did not defeat their enemies, they would be at the mercy of a strange world. Warchief Doomhammer ordered the clans to prepare for one final assault. They were moving before the sun had set. Stormwind City was conquered by the mighty Doomhammer. The First War was over. The Horde stood victorious. But its Warchief was anything but happy. Orgrim had no means nor the inclination to pursue Stormwind's refugees. The Horde had taken heavy losses to achieve victory, and he knew he needed to secure his conquered land before facing any new enemies.
    As the dust of the First War settled, Orgrim Doomhammer mulled over the future of his people. He dreamed of a time when the orcs could return to their old traditions and ways, free from fel magic and the other corruptive influences that Gul'dan and Blackhand had introduced to the clans.

    Yet that dream would be long in coming. First, Orgrim would have to secure a home for the orcs on Azeroth. Conquering Stormwind was not enough. The other human nations would never make peace with the Horde. Not after Stormwind's destruction. Even now, Doomhammer's scouts reported that there was a gathering of human nations in a northern land called Lordaeron.

    Orgrim knew that the Horde could not sit idle. If he and his people simply tried to defend their conquered territory, the human nations would muster the full might of their armies, march south, and eventually overrun the orcs. The only way for Orgrim to secure his race's survival was to strike first, before his enemies could fully prepare for war


    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    Backstabbed orcs to get rid of Blackhand and get power, then used the same tactics (hello good guy guldan)
    Defiled alliance dead soldiers to raise them as undead with the spirit of orcs.
    He did not backstab Blackhand. He declared Mak'gora and Blackhand accepted.

    Regarding the Death Knights, yes. It was the first of his fucking awful decisions. He wasn't happy with it but needed to counter the Human's magic and clerics (not to mention the newly formed Paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    Used raped mind enslaved red dragons.
    Nothing to add on this one. This is a complete asshole move, even if the situation demanded it.



    So yes. Orgrim was an asshole, but he didn't start a war because he wanted to. He had to finish the war before the orcs were overrun because they had been pawns of the Legion. He had good intentions but no way to make them happen.
    Hope i'm being neutral enough, even though I respect Doomhammer more than I would ever respect any Hellscream
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  14. #34
    The real non choice is that regardless, you're falling into her plan and it was all intended from the start. To her it likely doesn't matter at all what you do, you would have done what she wanted you to do either way.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    And if they DON'T they made the paranoid orwellian dictator the -right- choice over the folks that want peace / any kind of moral code.
    But given how Alliance's proposal of peace is absolutely worthless as it includes "we will attack your entire fleets and your leaders with complete impunity on our part, even if the people committing those acts break the very orders of the High King", she is the right choice over the perversion of peace that's on the table. Let alone over the limp-wristed Alliance sycophants in the Horde who are more concerned about Jaina's brother than their own people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The notion that a war game based solely around improving your ability to kill things in interesting ways alongside and against other players for fun should somehow be the vehicle of a genuine message about peace and understanding are why we're in this ditch in the first place.
    What do you mean? This is the perfect medium for that message. Too bad we don't have Pandaren this time to tell this lesson though. Because who's better to tell it than the people who on one hand inhibit their negative emotions because of the Sha and stand on a moral high ground over us as a result, while on the other hand order us to kill anything non-Pandaren in their sight?


    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    That's another problem, if they Kerridan her it's just another repeated plot, and frankly it'll feel unbelievable because to be redeemed you have to... WANT to be better.

    Sylvanas doesn't think she's done anything wrong, she isn't sad or conflicted about Burning Teldrassil, she hasn't ever said "Yes I have to do this thing for the Horde, this thing is bad but we have to do it still" she's just gone "This is necessary and because it's necessary it's right and anyone who doesn't agree is stupid or cowardly."
    No you don't. If anything, redemption works better if it's unintended on the part of the redeemed party. It's not like Kerrigan wanted to be a good person. She immediately crawled back to the Zerg pits in her last arc, turned herself into an even worse Queen of Blades and continued her crusade against Mengsk. And then turned against Amon because he targeted her, not because she wanted to be a savior of the universe or knew she was going to turn into a flaming abomination.


    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Where it concerns redemption, there won't be any. The endgame here is the unifaction and Sylvanas is unfit in this. The twist is that she will leave the Horde rather than be overthrown in the seat, presumably in 8.2.5. The Forsaken will be Calia-ized so that they mesh with the uniformity of what follows.
    Nah, the hamfisted story of Unification™ will be even more insulting if Sylvanas flips in its favor in the end. Especially after Anduin expressed disbelief at the notion she'd like to change. So obviously that's what Blizzard would go for.
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    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I agree with what you say, mind, but it bothers a lot less than if an RPG did that, because in these games immersion and integrating story and gameplay are paramount. In WoW the notion of immersion has always been a total joke since day 1, so I just roll with it. Yes it makes no sense that my character, who would happily genocide entire species for reroll tokens in order to get the aforementioned cool transmog, would care at all about morality, but the PC is a lore non-entity, we only exist because there's no gameplay otherwise. It's not like we're Geralt of Rivia or the Warden in Dragon Age and the entire story revolves around the player character.
    Oh, I agree with you. The PC in WoW is just a tool to experience content. I've made my peace with that ages ago, but this ties into what I'm getting at as well. The issue isn't that the PC acts out of character as the PC has no values or beliefs, it's that the moral message that they're trying to sell runs counter to the core appeal of the game which is providing a variety of different races, classes, cultures and the conflict thereof.

    A message about love and peace that homogenizes the factions is not just doomed to fail for the reasons we agree on, but it's also counterproductive to the core appeal. Humans that learn to tolerate the undead, undead that somehow dont' have their inability on a biological level to have the same emotions and the like as humans, orcs that aren't warlike, warlocks that don't suck souls and so forth go counter to the core appeal of those races. The message is not just impossible, it's undesirable. It must fail, because conflict is the end goal. This is also where I disagree with the latter part of your posts, @SirKickBan. That said, I do agree with a latter part of what you're saying and that's a bit about what kind of message can actually work and not run counter to what we're doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirKickBan View Post
    Have the Old Gods return, or whatever big bad you want, really, that's spooky enough to make both sides call some kind of truce, ceasefire, or whatever. -And make it clear to both sides that, due to losses inflicted during their (in the grand scheme of things) pointless and unnecessary war, even working together they don't have the strength to oppose whatever big bad has just showed up on their doorstep.

    You, as the player, aren't really 'learning your lesson', and that's just fine, the game isn't nearly personal enough to allow for that kind of interaction or examination, but the story, the framework through which you interact with the game, is acknowledging the implications of its events, laying out an implicit moral, having its cast of characters react to said implications and moral, and ideally not deciding to turn around and shit all over it for no reason when the next expansion needs some extra conflict to 'spice things up'.
    The first paragraph is a victim of them hamfisting an incompatible message, but also of telling and not showing. Have the races be unable to get over their justifiable grievances with one another, the years of bad blood and so forth, despite it being for the best as told by those who can see over these things. Rather than have them all inexplicably forgive each other for things nobody would ever forgive, have their inability to do so bite them in the ass when it helps the Old Gods rise, punting them to a cold war scenario where they grudgingly assist one another and then build off of that for new interactions both within and between the factions while demonstrating the message in the starkest terms instead of leaving it half-hearted.

    @Aresk @Maljinwo

    Orgrim did enjoy sacking the city and hearing the screams of the people being offed. What sets him apart from Sylvanas is that he actually believed in what he was selling. He really did want the best for his people and there was no way out of the war that he was willing to go to any lengths to win. Upon his victory he intended to set up a lasting society. War was a means and not an end.

    @Mehrunes

    Inb4 with her last breath Sylvanas says that Anduin was right all along and she's glad to have met him, then does a heroic sacrifice, convincing all the Forsaken and remaining loyalists in the glory of the God-King.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-05-09 at 09:00 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  17. #37
    Warchief Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post

    Orgrim did enjoy sacking the city and hearing the screams of the people being offed. What sets him apart from Sylvanas is that he actually believed in what he was selling. He really did want the best for his people and there was no way out of the war that he was willing to go to any lengths to win. Upon his victory he intended to set up a lasting society. War was a means and not an end..

    Was the sacking enjoyable for him? I'm asking because, as much as i'd like to get it, Chronicles is pretty expensive to get down here, so I don't have the book to check on it. But it would seem that the book represented him as a more level headed orc.
    But yeah, you represented what I wanted to say so thank you
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Was the sacking enjoyable for him? I'm asking because, as much as i'd like to get it, Chronicles is pretty expensive to get down here, so I don't have the book to check on it. But it would seem that the book represented him as a more level headed orc.
    But yeah, you represented what I wanted to say so thank you
    Chronicle is less clear about this compared to his Tides of Darkness portrayal, which is the most in-depth (and my personal favorite) version, but it's not really contradictory, it just doesn't get into his head, he still does all the same things.

    As for Tides of Darkness:

    ...Bodies and rubble littered the street. Blood flowed across the flagstones, pooling here and there. Screams indicated survivors had been found and were being tortured. Doomhammer nodded. It was good.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    So yes. Orgrim was an asshole, but he didn't start a war because he wanted to. He had to finish the war before the orcs were overrun because they had been pawns of the Legion. He had good intentions but no way to make them happen.
    Hope i'm being neutral enough, even though I respect Doomhammer more than I would ever respect any Hellscream
    "Finish" the war? The First and Second War had been considered to be separate conflicts since their introduction into the lore. And you're making it sound like Sylvanas is waging war for the sake of waging war. As if she didn't sit out 90% of the previous faction war. Sylvanas is waging war because she's cynical and believes the peace with Alliance as it is now won't be permanent. Which is a notion supported by a complete lack of Alliance's reaction to Genn and Rogers mindlessly starting shit (during Satanic apocalypse no less) against the Horde in Stormheim, despite the fact that they even broke their High King's orders while doing so. So why risk a war with the Alliance when it's strong instead of kicking them while they are down due to Legion and snuff out for good the threat their unhinged antics pose to the Horde?


    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    @Mehrunes

    Inb4 with her last breath Sylvanas says that Anduin was right all along and she's glad to have met him, then does a heroic sacrifice, convincing all the Forsaken and remaining loyalists in the glory of the God-King.
    Why not go further? It's the perfect opportunity for Blizzard to rip off Naturo. Have Anduin's holy bones of morality no jutsu convert Sylvanas and then she'll resurrect (as in truly resurrect with the Light powers converting to Blanduinism unlocked within her) everyone she has killed, sacrificing herself in the process?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    They won't kill her or let her become a villain.... she will be redeemed.
    Blizzard "redemption" stories are fucking awful.

    "Draenor is free!"- Guy who just tried murdering everything on the planet.

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