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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    It’s entirely possible for people to be complicit in their own oppression.
    Yes, millions of people all thinking just like that

  2. #342
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    Yup, all those pro life women are so anti women's rights
    Lol! Good point. Good to see you back. And for the record, ( a lot on here already know this, since I am a dirty Trump supporter ) I support the Heart Beat laws the states have passed recently. Which they do have a realistic chance of getting support from the Supreme Court. But personally, which many do not agree with, I believe a human's life begins at conception. Debate on it however, can not be done on this forum.
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
    The Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to - prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..” - Samuel Adams

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Lol! Good point. Good to see you back. And for the record, ( a lot on here already know this, since I am a dirty Trump supporter ) I support the Heart Beat laws the states have passed recently. Which they do have a realistic chance of getting support from the Supreme Court. But personally, which many do not agree with, I believe a human's life begins at conception. Debate on it however, can not be done on this forum.
    Do you also believe that women and doctors should be thrown in jail?

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    Yes, millions of people all thinking just like that
    They literally just passed a law that would punish a rape victim who aborts the pregnancy that resulted from her rape more harshly than the person who raped her. What do you call that if not "oppression?"

  5. #345
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Do you also believe that women and doctors should be thrown in jail?
    Only when they violate the law.
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
    The Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to - prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..” - Samuel Adams

  6. #346
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    They literally just passed a law that would punish a rape victim who aborts the pregnancy that resulted from her rape more harshly than the person who raped her. What do you call that if not "oppression?"
    Lets be fair, the sort of woman that votes GoP are a lot less likley to be harmed by this. They are, for the most part, white and rich.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Only when they violate the law.
    For longer than the guy that raped them, sounds like fun.
    Are the prisons this desperate for new slave labour?

  7. #347
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    I'm quite interested in where universalism vs particularism lines go for different people.
    Probably where it actually makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    That is one of solutions, sure, if you consider jail to be fitting punishment for endangering other people in any way. Which i don't.

    Maybe jailing is just easier to legislate in Alabama for whatever reason.

    Edit: After checking, people already do get jailed for refusing to vaccinate in US
    paywall

    Not endangering, but actually harming people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    People are focusing on "their body, their choice" aspect though, not "saving a life" (because, clearly, baby carried to term rather then aborted is "saving a life" even if fetus status is dubious).
    Exactly, their body, their choice, without harming another human being, therein lies the difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    Lets be fair, the sort of woman that votes GoP are a lot less likley to be harmed by this. They are, for the most part, white and rich.
    That's not true, though. The female politicians who propose and vote in favor of laws like this may be rich and never have to face the reality of an unwanted pregnancy. But the women who vote for the GoP aren't necissarily wealthy. I'd go out on a limb and say that poor white families are just as likely to vote (R) as poor black families are to vote (D).

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    You see it's simple, anti lifers changed the argument to women's rights because they don't want to admit they are killing undborn children, it just sounds better. Pro Lifers, men and women, see it as protecting an unborn life and nothing to do with women's rights.

    You can make an argument that an unborn child is not a life, that's a fair debate but don't be dishonest in ones like this.
    I support peace and prosperity. How about you?

    Just don't ask me about the side effects on how to achieve that. That part has nothing to do with what it has to do! It's all about peace and prosperity!

  10. #350
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    That's not true, though. The female politicians who propose and vote in favor of laws like this may be rich and never have to face the reality of an unwanted pregnancy. But the women who vote for the GoP aren't necissarily wealthy. I'd go out on a limb and say that poor white families are just as likely to vote (R) as poor black families are prone to vote (D).
    I don't think that is the case, most of them, those in poverity, don't vote at all. Be it due to voter surpression or other various reasons. Ofcourse, its non-whites are hit harder be this, but don't get the wrong idea, they hate everybody who is poor. Just that anybody not white has it way worse. It does not take a genius to figure out what demographic will be hit the hardest with this law, its like the war on drugs all over again.


    The rich white protostants(or other christian sects) have all the power in states like this, and they intent to keep it that way.
    Last edited by JohnBrown1917; 2019-05-15 at 12:49 PM.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    I don't think that is the case, most of them, those in poverity, don't vote at all. Be it due to voter surpression or other various reasons.
    hmm... Maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    The rich white protostants(or other christian sects) have all the power in states like this, and they intent to keep it that way.
    Well, yeah. Sharia is only bad when it's Muslims imposing it, apparently.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Lol! Good point. Good to see you back. And for the record, ( a lot on here already know this, since I am a dirty Trump supporter ) I support the Heart Beat laws the states have passed recently. Which they do have a realistic chance of getting support from the Supreme Court. But personally, which many do not agree with, I believe a human's life begins at conception. Debate on it however, can not be done on this forum.
    Thanks Yeah, that's why they change the argument because they don't want to admit it's about not dealing with the consequences of your actions.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Only when they violate the law.
    At least you aren't shy about wanting the handmaiden's tale to become reality.

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Probably where it actually makes sense.
    So, where is the fine line of "making sense" here?

    Not endangering, but actually harming people.
    How does carrying baby to term harms anyone? This legislation certainly condones abortion if harm can be proven.

    paywall
    "Mother (in Ohio) opposes vaccination on religious grounds, goes against wishes of father to vaccinate, gets jailed for not following court order to vaccinate (for about 9 months), loses custody of kid in question and he gets vaccinated anyway."

    Makes a lot of arguments about choice that can be translated into pro-abortion stance word-for-word.

    Exactly, their body, their choice, without harming another human being, therein lies the difference.
    Not vaccinating does not directly harms any human being though, it just increases risks.

    Would you be okay with abortions being forbidden if Republicans would show specific risks increasing from reduced birth rates?

    From universalist perspective i can see either that both forced vaccinations AND forbidden abortions could happen, or, alternatively, both could be left to be decided by individual.
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2019-05-15 at 01:17 PM.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    Yeah, that's why they change the argument because they don't want to admit it's about not dealing with the consequences of your actions.
    Getting an abortion is dealing with the consequences.

    Do you think it should be the law of the land that people who get injured doing something stupid (or illegal) be withheld treatment to teach them a lesson?
    Do you think having sex (or having sex forced upon you) is an action so heinous that women who dare to engage in it should be forced to carry and deliver their pregnancy under penalty of law?
    Do you think legislating that people be born solely to teach their mothers a lesson is an ethical stance to take?

  16. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    Thanks Yeah, that's why they change the argument because they don't want to admit it's about not dealing with the consequences of your actions.
    How exactly is a pregnant woman, not dealing with consequences of her actions? An abortion is literally dealing with it. All this does is create court cases where they try to figure out if a woman having a miscarriage is jail worthy.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
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  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Like the action of being raped, sure.
    You knew I was talking about those who made a choice but yet you felt the need to be dishonest. I am fine with abortion for rape victims.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    You knew I was talking about those who made a choice but yet you felt the need to be dishonest. I am fine with abortion for rape victims.
    These laws have no exception for rape and incest some throw women in jail for daring to miscarry, the right is trying to bring the country back to puritan times.

  19. #359
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Getting an abortion is dealing with the consequences.

    Do you think it should be the law of the land that people who get injured doing something stupid (or illegal) be withheld treatment to teach them a lesson?
    Do you think having sex (or having sex forced upon you) is an action so heinous that women who dare to engage in it should be forced to carry and deliver their pregnancy under penalty of law?
    Do you think legislating that people be born solely to teach their mothers a lesson is an ethical stance to take?
    Hey now! You are stepping in man’s rights territory. Remember the complaint that a woman gets to choose weather to keep the baby or not? Maybe that’s what is needed... enough men that could convince the girlfriend to get an abortion, but got stuck with child support because of government intervention. That might be the only way to have the abortion debate end... focus on government forcing child support, on men who didn’t want the baby.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    You knew I was talking about those who made a choice but yet you felt the need to be dishonest. I am fine with abortion for rape victims.
    Are the children conceived from rape somehow less alive than those who were conceived through consensual sex?

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