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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    If they could have, they would have... if for no other reason to stop the competition. Because competing games should have fairly similar data (just smaller sample sizes) and they would have used it to crush WoW if it were at all possible to do so. It supports my theory of "too many variables", so I guess I have developed a new leap of faith during this conversation.
    What competition? Really.

    FFXIV? The game that's willing to completely tear down the entire game and start over from scratch to make a better game for its players? That's a totally different philosophy. WoW and FFXIV don't even compete in the same arena. They have different goals.

    ESO? What does ESO have...maybe a million players? Even now, after a decade of decline, WoW still has more players and payers than ESO.

    GW2? Different business model entirely.

    At this point WoW doesn't need to compete. It's got a super-hardcore, entrenched, tribalistic, fanatical, apologistic core of players that absolutely will not stop giving Blizzard money no matter what they do. What does any other game provide that will pull these players away? Nothing. Because other games are not WoW. Granted, that's not every player. There are always going to be casuals and cyclical players who come and go. But at this point I think it's absolutely fair to say that a large portion of people who are still playing WoW are not going to leave short of something colossal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    Fundamentally, I agree with the "There is too much business in my game" stance. But I am not sure that fear is really affecting people all that much. Honestly, catch up mechanics usually have the opposite affect, reassuring people that it is always possible to return and continue. This was not the case (not easily anyway) back in the days of attunements and linear raid progression... which was why those practices were dropped in the first place I would imagine.
    Sure, you can return whenever. But you'd be doing so by dropping into the middle of an expansion with zero context. That has some value, but I think not nearly as much as a person starting from the beginning of an expansion and working their way forward. If other players were also not skipping forward with catch-up mechanics, especially casuals or other non-cutting edge players, you wouldn't even be THAT far behind. You would have players to progress with, even coming in late to the expansion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    True but, as they say, times change. 15 years ago, console gamers were seen as a blight in the world of gaming (by many PC gamers) but one gaming generation faded and the next accepted the changes, so here we are now... watching the exact same thing. Now, dual console/PC gamers are extremely common and often look down on the mobile market as trash gaming. This too, will pass. And the mobile market will fold into the next iteration (I will probably be dead by then, so who knows what that will be).
    Eh...some misguided elitists may have shat on console gamers, but consoles have always had a very strong place in the market. We like to joke about console peasants, but console games have been a driving force in gaming for a long time.

    I think the mobile market will continue to push forward as a device, but I also think that as streaming technology and infrastructure increases, we're likely to see services like Stadia move in to promote some types of core games onto mobile. If a person could run WoW from a tablet or large phone with the same level of performance as a PC, I think "mobile" gaming wouldn't be so bad. A LOT depends on the business models involved, however.
    Sylvanas has left the Guild.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So doing group content. Comparing it to solo content seems a bit strange.
    I mean if you want to call "group" content queueable instances that are so easy the tank can mass aoe and solo it that, by all means. But I won't be very sympathetic to the distinction, myself, it's still more or less free loot and the game hardly collapsed from it.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I mean if you want to call "group" content queueable instances that are so easy the tank can mass aoe and solo it that, by all means. But I won't be very sympathetic to the distinction, myself, it's still more or less free loot and the game hardly collapsed from it.
    Tanks could solo wrath heroics? I would have thought any of the ICC heroics in particular would have been more than a little challenging for a solo tank? HoR heroic solo tank? What about the bosses that had mechanics making a solo impossible?

    Oh, sorry, you were using hyperbole to support your silly little idea that solo content = group content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    What competition? Really.

    FFXIV? The game that's willing to completely tear down the entire game and start over from scratch to make a better game for its players? That's a totally different philosophy. WoW and FFXIV don't even compete in the same arena. They have different goals.

    ESO? What does ESO have...maybe a million players? Even now, after a decade of decline, WoW still has more players and payers than ESO.

    GW2? Different business model entirely.
    Hi, just interested in where you are getting your numbers from? Because some things i have read over the years have wow subs below 1m.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Tanks could solo wrath heroics? I would have thought any of the ICC heroics in particular would have been more than a little challenging for a solo tank? HoR heroic solo tank? What about the bosses that had mechanics making a solo impossible?

    Oh, sorry, you were using hyperbole to support your silly little idea that solo content = group content.
    Yeah, cite the dungeons that actually weren't faceroll if you wish. But a tank in ICC gear could very well solo most of the rest, or near enough that it doesn't matter much. The point is, it wasn't harder than WQs, and queueable as well. Solo vs group doesn't mean jack when people are talking about difficulty.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Yeah, cite the dungeons that actually weren't faceroll if you wish. But a tank in ICC gear could very well solo most of the rest, or near enough that it doesn't matter much. The point is, it wasn't harder than WQs, and queueable as well. Solo vs group doesn't mean jack when people are talking about difficulty.
    If the tank was in ICC gear, why would he be farming badges for inferior gear? To compare an icc heroic in beginner gear with WQ in beginner gear, and say they are the same difficulty......so disingenuous, so stupid. What the hell kind of WQ are you doing that you honestly think its comparable to an appropriately geared group of 5 in an icc heroic? Just ridiculous, you cant honestly believe this garbage - tanks soloing icc heroics. ffs. what a joke. Or is it just that you never played wrath?.......hmmm.......

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    If the tank was in ICC gear, why would he be farming badges for inferior gear? To compare an icc heroic in beginner gear with WQ in beginner gear, and say they are the same difficulty......so disingenuous, so stupid. What the hell kind of WQ are you doing that you honestly think its comparable to an appropriately geared group of 5 in an icc heroic? Just ridiculous, you cant honestly believe this garbage - tanks soloing icc heroics. ffs. what a joke. Or is it just that you never played wrath?.......hmmm.......
    Because we're assuming WQs are easy because they become faceroll once geared as well? Take a fresh 120 and it takes more time and effort (still not much, mind you), take a Wrath heroic with ungeared players and you have to follow some rough dungeon guidelines while semi-geared players eat the place for breakfast just like current rando Heroics? All of that is easy, that's the entire point. The distinction is marginal at best, easy content rewarding decent gear is not new and has always existed, welcome to WoW, the MMO for casuals since 2004.

    Oh wait, you're that guy from the other thread who makes everything personal and seems to seethe at his keyboard with every post. Dunno why I wasted my time.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Hi, just interested in where you are getting your numbers from? Because some things i have read over the years have wow subs below 1m.
    Both Bellular and Heelsvsbabyface, as well as a few other youtubers did some research, using websites that track population, MAUs, "box" sales for each expansion, revenue reports, and other such factors. Keep in mind when I say 3m for WoW, I'm including the chinese playerbase as well.

    Unfortunately there's no way for us to know exact figures, but I think a pretty fair estimate can be made by looking at the data surrounding each expansion for each game. So take any exact number you see someone posting with a grain of salt.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-05-13 at 12:55 AM.
    Sylvanas has left the Guild.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    What competition? Really.

    FFXIV? The game that's willing to completely tear down the entire game and start over from scratch to make a better game for its players? That's a totally different philosophy. WoW and FFXIV don't even compete in the same arena. They have different goals.

    ESO? What does ESO have...maybe a million players? Even now, after a decade of decline, WoW still has more players and payers than ESO.


    All that kind of goes to my point... what WoW does, good or bad (in our opinions) is working. If they are still in the lead and have no real competition, then it is working and there is little reason to change. They all have similar data to look at, so its possible that they have all reached the same conclusions and try to maintain their niche as the market dwindles. Its all speculation on our part since we don't have their data.


    At this point WoW doesn't need to compete. It's got a super-hardcore, entrenched, tribalistic, fanatical, apologistic core of players that absolutely will not stop giving Blizzard money no matter what they do. What does any other game provide that will pull these players away? Nothing. Because other games are not WoW. Granted, that's not every player. There are always going to be casuals and cyclical players who come and go. But at this point I think it's absolutely fair to say that a large portion of people who are still playing WoW are not going to leave short of something colossal.

    If this is true, then sure, why bother changing... because it is working. As I mentioned, this might explain milk-mode. There is a point when the number of people leaving will trail off and settle and the remaining people will stay till they die... if that level of people still turns a profit, then that is what they will focus on (we might be there already).




    Sure, you can return whenever. But you'd be doing so by dropping into the middle of an expansion with zero context. That has some value, but I think not nearly as much as a person starting from the beginning of an expansion and working their way forward. If other players were also not skipping forward with catch-up mechanics, especially casuals or other non-cutting edge players, you wouldn't even be THAT far behind. You would have players to progress with, even coming in late to the expansion.


    I was always a fan of the story in WoW but over the years I learned that most people were really not that invested in it, so the context value is pretty minimal. PvP people tend to tunnel their PvP, raiding people often have no clue WHY they are killing a boss... but they enjoy killing the bosses. Lots of exceptions exists, but most just enjoy their focus and the story is just a nice side bonus... not a driving force behind anything.


    And no, if people were not skipping forward, it would become increasingly harder to find people to move forward with... that is the direct result of having less people in the pool (its the math of it). Skipping forward makes it easier to return, which keeps the player pool active (at least for spurts), which makes grouping for objectives easier.



    Eh...some misguided elitists may have shat on console gamers, but consoles have always had a very strong place in the market. We like to joke about console peasants, but console games have been a driving force in gaming for a long time.

    I think the mobile market will continue to push forward as a device, but I also think that as streaming technology and infrastructure increases, we're likely to see services like Stadia move in to promote some types of core games onto mobile. If a person could run WoW from a tablet or large phone with the same level of performance as a PC, I think "mobile" gaming wouldn't be so bad. A LOT depends on the business models involved, however.

    Before I say this, I will preface it by saying I never cared one way or another.

    That said, no, for a long time there was a definite divide between gaming types. I have played games since the late 70's (I literally had Pong), so I saw it unfold. I never really understood the animosity but it was there nonetheless. Hell, if you want to see even a minor example of it, just go to the old WoW forums and look up older threads where someone wants WoW on console. The old forums only goes back 6 or 8 years I believe, so what you will see are moderate responses... but still an overwhelming dislike of the concept. It was way worse before. Hell, some people (not a huge number) were pretty mad at Diablo 3 going console and that wasn't even that long ago.

    We actually have MMOs on consoles these days, so it aint like it used to be. I suspect 15 years and phones will be part of the status quo.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Because we're assuming WQs are easy because they become faceroll once geared as well? Take a fresh 120 and it takes more time and effort (still not much, mind you), take a Wrath heroic with ungeared players and you have to follow some rough dungeon guidelines while semi-geared players eat the place for breakfast just like current rando Heroics? All of that is easy, that's the entire point. The distinction is marginal at best, easy content rewarding decent gear is not new and has always existed, welcome to WoW, the MMO for casuals since 2004.

    Oh wait, you're that guy from the other thread who makes everything personal and seems to seethe at his keyboard with every post. Dunno why I wasted my time.
    Heroics dont scale, WQ do. Current heroics dont reward ilvl 430 items, WQ will. I feel a bit bad because you seem to know who i am, but i wouldnt have a clue who you are, or what thread you are talking about. Guess you are the one making things personal? Im just pointing out the absolutely ridiculous hyperbole your entire argument is based on. When you build your opinion on false information, you are bound to get off track.

    All i am saying is that comparing farming heroic dungeons with a group is NOT similar to farming WQ solo. One required some coordination, one requires none. One required a time commitment, one does not. One rewarding entry level gear, one is rewarding extremely high ilvl loot.

    If you are honestly going to try and say that random solo content that scales with your current ilvl is the same as farming group heroic content in wrath, then im not sure what further there is to discus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Both Bellular and Heelsvsbabyface, as well as a few other youtubers did some research, using websites that track population, MAUs, "box" sales for each expansion, revenue reports, and other such factors. Keep in mind when I say 3m for WoW, I'm including the chinese playerbase as well.

    Unfortunately there's no way for us to know exact figures, but I think a pretty fair estimate can be made by looking at the data surrounding each expansion for each game. So take any exact number you see someone posting with a grain of salt.
    Blizzard dont release the MAU for individual games in their portfolio though, do they? Box sales is how many ppl MIGHT have played at launch, really not relevant now at all. Personally, i wouldnt take some random youtubers opinion on sub numbers as a source for data. Which websites track population?

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    All that kind of goes to my point... what WoW does, good or bad (in our opinions) is working. If they are still in the lead and have no real competition, then it is working and there is little reason to change. They all have similar data to look at, so its possible that they have all reached the same conclusions and try to maintain their niche as the market dwindles. Its all speculation on our part since we don't have their data.
    Agreed. I just think that what they're doing has less to do with consumer-friendly practices, and more to do with exploitation of rampant fanatacism based on misguided and outdated loyalty. The results are obvious. It's how they got there that concerns me.

    On a tangential topic: It's because of this that I wonder how well Classic is really going to do. A lot of people don't fully realize just how bad vanilla was. I think it will provide a powerful look into how much Blizzard loyalty and previous games had on how well WoW did at the time.




    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    If this is true, then sure, why bother changing... because it is working. As I mentioned, this might explain milk-mode. There is a point when the number of people leaving will trail off and settle and the remaining people will stay till they die... if that level of people still turns a profit, then that is what they will focus on (we might be there already).
    Because it's short term, and dead-end. If you look at Activision-Blizzard right now, they have almost ZERO innovation or new IP. Call of Duty? Same crap over and over. Overwatch? Almost nothing new. Hearthstone, HotS, Starcraft are all stagnant. Diablo? There's Immortal on the phone, and probably an announcement of D4 at Blizzcon, with another 2-3 year wait for an actual release. And WoW is on milk mode.

    Activision Blizzard BADLY needs innovation and creativity. Continuing to turn up the exploitation of their current players will only go so far, and is already in diminishing returns. If they want to GROW, they must change their practices. Maybe that means going full tilt into mobile. Actually, that's almost certainly where they're going, as we already discussed. But it will come at the cost of their existing players and fans, which is what made them great in the past. If they go down the mobile road, Blizzard will just be another shitty company. And that's kind of sad.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    I was always a fan of the story in WoW but over the years I learned that most people were really not that invested in it, so the context value is pretty minimal. PvP people tend to tunnel their PvP, raiding people often have no clue WHY they are killing a boss... but they enjoy killing the bosses. Lots of exceptions exists, but most just enjoy their focus and the story is just a nice side bonus... not a driving force behind anything.
    Not just story context, but progression context. This is important in order to give players a sense of accomplishment and investment. When a player can start playing wow and see an entire expansion worth of content and progression to work through, that gives them a hell of a lot more incentive to stay than just playing for a month and dropping out because they skipped everything before the current patch.



    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    And no, if people were not skipping forward, it would become increasingly harder to find people to move forward with... that is the direct result of having less people in the pool (its the math of it). Skipping forward makes it easier to return, which keeps the player pool active (at least for spurts), which makes grouping for objectives easier.
    I'm not so sure of that. With the advent of allied races and more account-wide features, I think the game could be tailored in such a way to make the impact of progression across an entire expansion less disparate. The players being stuck in progression could also be mitigated by designing incentives for players to play alts, or to farm content from earlier in the expansion. Crafting mats, rep, mounts, Artifact power, along with careful use of scaling, could go a long way. Obviously raid groups would progress together, and there might be some time required to replace a key member, but it would also help to combat rampant guild-hopping.

    There's pros and cons to either system, I admit. Obviously I believe the pros of not invalidating content with each patch outweigh the cons.





    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    Before I say this, I will preface it by saying I never cared one way or another.

    That said, no, for a long time there was a definite divide between gaming types. I have played games since the late 70's (I literally had Pong), so I saw it unfold. I never really understood the animosity but it was there nonetheless. Hell, if you want to see even a minor example of it, just go to the old WoW forums and look up older threads where someone wants WoW on console. The old forums only goes back 6 or 8 years I believe, so what you will see are moderate responses... but still an overwhelming dislike of the concept. It was way worse before. Hell, some people (not a huge number) were pretty mad at Diablo 3 going console and that wasn't even that long ago.

    We actually have MMOs on consoles these days, so it aint like it used to be. I suspect 15 years and phones will be part of the status quo.
    I started with Missile Command and Spy Hunter. Trust me, I'm right there with you.

    I guess I was speaking in terms of the gaming industry and market as a whole. MMOs, however, have always strongly been the realm of PCs. A few exceptions such as Phantasy Star Online, or EQ Adventures(or whatever that was called) made attempts, but overall tended to fail, especially since the advent of WoW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Blizzard dont release the MAU for individual games in their portfolio though, do they? Box sales is how many ppl MIGHT have played at launch, really not relevant now at all. Personally, i wouldnt take some random youtubers opinion on sub numbers as a source for data. Which websites track population?
    I don't take the word of "Random" youtubers. For example, Bellular is one of the most fair and critical WoW-based channels you're going to find. The guy does his homework, and doesn't just post whatever is popular. In fact he tends to poke holes in the knee-jerk reaction news stories.

    Given that none of us have access to official, exact figures, I'm much more inclined to take the word of someone with a history of objectivity and sound research over anything else. Especially when I'm looking at trends across multiple sources. In the absence of direct blizzard numbers, the people I mentioned are about as credible and as accurate as we're likely to get.

    And besides, my point wasn't to try and post 100% accurate numbers. It was simply to point out that WoW is still the 800lb gorilla in the MMORPG genre. Other titles like FFXIV and ESO might be closing the gap, and I think they'll get closer if Blizzard keeps screwing up, but they've still got a long way to go.
    Sylvanas has left the Guild.

  11. #311
    As a dirty casual, a fun game would be my dream. BFA is not that.
    No surrender! 70 Vanguard - The Star Forge

  12. #312
    It's a step in the right direction away from RNG to deterministic gearing. Gives players a goal to work towards, gives us back that "sweet, tomorrow I can get this because I'll have enough points!" feeling.

    But they'll probably fuck it up and either make it take too long or not long enough to get....

    385 should be pretty easy, maybe a week to get all the pieces, 400 should take a little longer, maybe half a week per piece or so, but 430 should take 2-3 weeks a piece.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Because we're assuming WQs are easy because they become faceroll once geared as well? Take a fresh 120 and it takes more time and effort (still not much, mind you), take a Wrath heroic with ungeared players and you have to follow some rough dungeon guidelines while semi-geared players eat the place for breakfast just like current rando Heroics? All of that is easy, that's the entire point. The distinction is marginal at best, easy content rewarding decent gear is not new and has always existed, welcome to WoW, the MMO for casuals since 2004.

    Oh wait, you're that guy from the other thread who makes everything personal and seems to seethe at his keyboard with every post. Dunno why I wasted my time.
    I don't know why you wasted your time being wrong either. Let's all agree that heroics can be as easy as doing 4 WQ just to show you how ridiculous it is to compare 5 man content to WQ.

    If you are unlucky, right now, you get 1 emmisary a week that rewards a 395. Guaranteed loot. This week I have had 4 emmisaries turn up with 395 hear guaranteed. No tricks. No bullshit. Guaranteed loot that is a sliver worse than heroic raid gear. 4 pieces of heroic raid gear for 2 hours work (cause I'm slow and watching tv).

    Think about that. A piece of heroic level gear for 30 mins work if you are shit. How long did it take to get the equivalent in wrath? 5 frost badges for your first dungeon and 2 for each one after that. 7 X 5 is 35 + let's say 10 more a day for 5 extra dungeons a day. Total 105 badges a week. To get gear 26 ilvls below max and that gives you 1 piece a week. 1 piece for 10+ hours a week.

    I want you to apologise to everyone you have been bullying in this thread with your completely unfounded accusations.

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    [.
    Last edited by munkeyinorbit; 2019-05-13 at 05:08 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post

    FFXIV? The game that's willing to completely tear down the entire game and start over from scratch to make a better game for its players? That's a totally different philosophy. WoW and FFXIV don't even compete in the same arena. They have different goals.
    they didnt want to - they had no other choice because nobody wanted to play it.

    and they still cannot break 1 mln subs.

    while WoW is drowning in $$$$$$ on 15 year old game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    It's a step in the right direction away from RNG to deterministic gearing. Gives players a goal to work towards, gives us back that "sweet, tomorrow I can get this because I'll have enough points!" feeling.

    But they'll probably fuck it up and either make it take too long or not long enough to get....

    385 should be pretty easy, maybe a week to get all the pieces, 400 should take a little longer, maybe half a week per piece or so, but 430 should take 2-3 weeks a piece.
    and its a good thing.

    you are meant to work for them for whole cycle not farm extensively 2-3 weeks and be done.

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    and its a good thing.

    you are meant to work for them for whole cycle not farm extensively 2-3 weeks and be done.
    And that's exactly what i was saying?

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    while WoW is drowning in $$$$$$ on 15 year old game.
    You said that like money is the only consideration. I feel bad for you unless you're some kind of super-high-end shareholder. In which case I feel like you're going to get exactly what you deserve when Acti-Blizz practices crash and burn. There's a reason their stock is worth half what it was 6 months ago.
    Sylvanas has left the Guild.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Why does it sound like bait?
    I just need item level for PvP and Duels
    Right now, all i do is LFR...there is literally nothing else i do.
    Nazjatar seems like content for weeks of farming non stop.

    That should keep me busy and in the end i will be "stronger" in my own little world of duels in front of Stormwind

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    Plz dont tell me that...are you sure?
    it mostly feels like bait because you are trying to convince people lfr and m0 is the only accessible thing for people with limited time

    with group finder it is the opposite however, every single piece of content is accessible to everyone. even if you play one hour a week or something - i would actually say that LFR takes a longer time since the queue times can be very long
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  18. #318
    Only useful for AZ Gear cuz its not farmable, everything else => M+

  19. #319
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sencha View Post
    Gear doesn't really matter in pvp. So why do you need gear for if you just do LFR and Mythic0?
    Sure it doesnt matter. Now, go and try to defeat a 245K HP warlock with a 185K HP whatever.

    Even if you master that whatever, you will absofuckinglutely never defeat a 60ilvls higher geared player as long as he is playing decently.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    Sure it doesnt matter. Now, go and try to defeat a 245K HP warlock with a 185K HP whatever.

    Even if you master that whatever, you will absofuckinglutely never defeat a 60ilvls higher geared player as long as he is playing decently.
    That is also my experience.
    I dont have the data, but i have dueled and fought many opponents and i can see there is a huge difference from me (370 ilvl) to other 400-something ilvl opponents.

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