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  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    How about the endless epic weapons and armors that are Best in Slot you can buy of the Auction House in Vanilla WoW.

    Lets say, for example Arcanite Reaper is on the auction house for 600 gold.
    How do you think a player will get that money to buy the weapon?
    Farming aka killing boars in durotar for several hours (like you put it)

    How is this situation different?

    Farming is effort. Hours put in the game farming is effort.


    Sigh....

    Citing a different version of the same flaw isn't a valid justification.
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  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Sigh....

    Citing a different version of the same flaw isn't a valid justification.
    Why are you avoiding the question?

    Robe of the Archmage (made by tailoring) is Best in Slot up until AQ40 and its bought with gold.

    How did the person farm that gold?

    Killing boars in durotar for several hours a day

    There. Whats your argument?

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    Quote Originally Posted by styil View Post
    First you say this when someone tries to make an argument using vanilla wow as an example. Then you say this:



    What are you trying to argue? Your argument is all over the place.
    Im trying to put in peoples heads for good that HOURS being put into farming equate to effort towards aquiring a reward.
    A decent reward, depending on how hardcore was the farm.

  3. #643
    Benthic should’ve been 410.

    You want good gear? Do the heroic raids and M+15’s. Not enough skill? Go to Skyrim.
    RIP BFA! 8/27.

  4. #644
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Why are you avoiding the question?

    Robe of the Archmage (made by tailoring) is Best in Slot up until AQ40 and its bought with gold.

    How did the person farm that gold?

    Killing boars in durotar for several hours a day

    There. Whats your argument?
    First off, you're citing examples from vanilla, which had so many design flaws and inconsistencies that it's already questionable as support for your point of view. Second, it was from a time when many of us, both players and developers, just didn't know any better.

    But today? We know better. Gaming has come a LONG way since then. Go read the articles about attempts to add EZ-mode to dark souls or Sekiro, and how doing so would completely undermine the satisfaction and meaning of overcoming the challenge the game represents.

    Your entire point of view is based on doing the lowest level work and expecting the highest level rewards. It is FUNDAMENTALLY flawed. I've given you several examples of how and why, and what the effects of catering to your mentality creates.

    At this point you just don't want to admit the flaws in your stance and are repeating yourself. I shouldn't be surprised that someone who never wants to challenge themselves would also never be able to recognize their own bad logic. I hope you get EVERYTHING you deserve. Just don't come crying when the game is so shitty and boring that even you get sick of it.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-06-03 at 02:17 AM.
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  5. #645
    The Lightbringer Perkunas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiih View Post
    10/10 troll because of 30pages
    Yeah, this dude screams Poe at this point, but knowing the retail community it's probably not the case and he's 100% dead serious. Blizzard did this to themselves.
    Stains on the carpet and stains on the memory
    Songs about happiness murmured in dreams
    When we both of us knew how the end always is...

  6. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    First off, you're citing examples from vanilla, which had so many design flaws and inconsistencies that it's already questionable as support for your point of view. Second, it was from a time when many of us, both players and developers, just didn't know any better.

    But today? We know better. Gaming has come a LONG way since then. Go read the articles about attempts to add EZ-mode to dark souls or Sekiro, and how doing so would completely undermine the satisfaction and meaning of overcoming the challenge the game represents.

    Your entire point of view is based on doing the lowest level work and expecting the highest level rewards. It is FUNDAMENTALLY flawed. I've given you several examples of how and why, and what the effects of catering to your mentality creates.

    At this point you just don't want to admit the flaws in your stance and are repeating yourself. I shouldn't be surprised that someone who never wants to challenge themselves would also never be able to recognize their own bad logic. I hope you get EVERYTHING you deserve. Just don't come crying when the game is so shitty and boring that even you get sick of it.
    This is retail WoW

    I already gave you a million examples of item level 400 being rewarded in retail for low efffort.
    Want me to post them again?

    players with 500 rating getting ilvl 400 gear every week
    Overwhelming odds
    400 Emissaries
    Warfront quest
    random weekly
    400 world boss
    All of this can be obtained in retail while AFK. (less the random weekly and emissaries and pvp)

    ^^^^^^ This is current WoW ^^^^^^

    Now...given THIS scenario. (literally anyone who has been playing the game for 2 months is full decked out in 400)
    Why shouldnt the Nazjatar gear farm reward also ilvl 400? And instead be 395?
    When there is enough handouts already to be fully decked in 400 gear by literally doing nothing.
    Last edited by Shadoowpunk; 2019-06-03 at 02:27 AM.

  7. #647
    WIthout catchup gear, people would not have a viable method of refilling their ranks.

  8. #648
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    Benthic should’ve been 410.

    You want good gear? Do the heroic raids and M+15’s. Not enough skill? Go to Skyrim.
    But they aren't 410 feels good man! and no i won't go to skyrim im going to WoW BFA 8.2 patch and farming my 425ilvl gear ftw!no skills required just time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Right, a non-answer. I checked your post history, and you have a habit of posting inflammatory jabs that don't add anything to conversations.

    Thanks for wasting everyone's time.

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    Because it's not a discussion about just this gear or just this patch. It's about the entire design philosophy. Benthic gear is just a symptom of a larger problem.
    And i still wasn't talking to you u derp.
    Last edited by Lurker1; 2019-06-03 at 05:08 AM.

  9. #649
    Quote Originally Posted by marcusblood View Post
    WIthout catchup gear, people would not have a viable method of refilling their ranks.
    Yes they would: People who had also progressed anywhere near as far as they had. People act like every single time they want a new raid member they have to start over from scratch, which is a false representation. You have 4 difficulties of raiding to overlap gear for progression. You have numerous level of M+ for gear. If the open world was actually providing challenge as well, then you'd have that too. And in the absence of attunements, you have PUGs, guildies, or friends to help carry you.

    There is no good reason for catch-up mechanics besides trying to artificially inflate the number of people all in the same tiny space of the current patch's content. And while that has some benefits, it comes at the cost of shortening the lifespan and the value of all previous content. That's a cost I feel is causing more harm than good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker1 View Post
    And i still wasn't talking to you u derp.
    Welcome to a public conversation. Get used to it.
    Sylvanas has left the Guild.

  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Yes they would: People who had also progressed anywhere near as far as they had. People act like every single time they want a new raid member they have to start over from scratch, which is a false representation. You have 4 difficulties of raiding to overlap gear for progression. You have numerous level of M+ for gear. If the open world was actually providing challenge as well, then you'd have that too. And in the absence of attunements, you have PUGs, guildies, or friends to help carry you.

    There is no good reason for catch-up mechanics besides trying to artificially inflate the number of people all in the same tiny space of the current patch's content. And while that has some benefits, it comes at the cost of shortening the lifespan and the value of all previous content. That's a cost I feel is causing more harm than good.

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    Welcome to a public conversation. Get used to it.
    in theory you are right.

    in reality guilds want only gear-raid-ready people. to be able to imidiately jump in - not to regear those people infinetly .

    there is nothing wrong about system which after 3 months of continius non stop gameplay will give people +/- 420 itlv (because things like rings / trinekts/weapons will still be limited most liekly to 410 in emmisary quests untill 8.2.5 )

  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    in theory you are right.

    in reality guilds want only gear-raid-ready people. to be able to imidiately jump in - not to regear those people infinetly .

    there is nothing wrong about system which after 3 months of continius non stop gameplay will give people +/- 420 itlv (because things like rings / trinekts/weapons will still be limited most liekly to 410 in emmisary quests untill 8.2.5 )
    That's just raids asking for instant gratification in the same way that individuals are, though. Treating raid members like they're disposable commodities instead of people. Besides, with 4 difficulties, raids that scale to almost any group size, and personal loot, there are plenty of tools to find new members without artificially warping the progression curve in such a way that it invalidates earlier content within an expansion.

    The problem is that open world content is a joke. It's more of a joke than LFR in many cases. And even if it wasn't, the existence of LFR or Normal mode PUG, along with WF/TF provides more than ample opportunity for people to get their foot in the door for raid gearing.

    But really the entire system should be overhauled. Even if it was something as simple as locking the benthic vendors behind Mage Tower type solo challenges, that would be a good start.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-06-03 at 06:58 AM.
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  12. #652
    Dreadlord
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    Getting more ilvls would simply inflate entry requirement even more. I don't really pug M+ but if I would, my first choice for a player would be their Raider IO score, and only after that-ilvl.
    Even right now getting gear is super easy with minimal effort. Recently got my alt rogue to 120, did couple low keys with guildies, 1 alt raid (only few bosses) and mostly WQ, Invasions and emissaries. Ilvl is 398 without any crazy TF and minimal effort. Emissaries giving 400 ilvl azerite gear...insane.
    And then Blizzard wandering, why subscribers dropping like flies...Why bother if you raid anything below mythic, WQ, emissaries and M+ provide you with superior gear, so where is incentive to raid again, after AoTC? Why even have normal/heroic mode?
    Blizzard clearly moving away from invested, long term player base to fast-paced Fortnite-like experience, getting couple months of the game time out of those mayflies.
    Doesn't seem to work for them, considering so much hype for Classic.

  13. #653
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Why are you avoiding the question?

    Robe of the Archmage (made by tailoring) is Best in Slot up until AQ40 and its bought with gold.

    How did the person farm that gold?

    Killing boars in durotar for several hours a day

    There. Whats your argument?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Im trying to put in peoples heads for good that HOURS being put into farming equate to effort towards aquiring a reward.
    A decent reward, depending on how hardcore was the farm.
    I understand that, but you also said that your opinions only matter in current WoW, yet you were using something from Vanila WoW as your argument, so you're not displaying a very coherent argument to prove your point.

  14. #654
    High Overlord Jargathnan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    If you have to kill a thousand nagas to upgrade one item to 425 this will be nothing but a timesink for the antisocial crowd.
    While farming rares (once per day) is one way of farming these, most will likely just collect them passively via World Quests. Especially as you’re likely farming reputation anyways, to unlock flying. I don’t believe regular mobs drop the pearls (at least in my play on the PTR I never saw any). It remains to be seen how much a daily round of WQs will reward; that will determine pacing.

    Either way, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a solid catch up mechanism. Particularly as it’s not random, like WQ rewards are. And compared to previous iterations of catch up tokens, they are incredibly more powerful, with previous iterations providing sub-LFR quality gear. You can target weak points on alts with relative efficiency this way, and invest to in ramping their gear up in a predictable manner via upgrades.

    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Thanks for the math

    So basically people here are mad if i was able to get equivalent item level 400 of todays patch.

    When a PvP'er with 500 rating is able to get 400 item level in all slots.

    Why would i want to do this farm then? If i already have one ilvl 398 character right now?
    8.2 will give me "nothing new"
    I will just farm like a maniac for hours when i could be doing tons of other things i enjoy.
    First off, a player with 500 rating will only see 400 gear drop via sheer random luck, and even then seeing a roll to 400 is rare. Unranked end-of-match drops (which aren’t guaranteed) start at 370 and can roll up from there. Challenger (1600+), for further example, only sees 390 as a base. When you add that and the fact that rated PvP has a higher barrier of entry than solo gameplay, I don’t see how this is a good example at all.

    But for why you’d do this- you’re going to be doing it on at least one toon anyways, for rep. This merely gives you further reward for doing what you’re likely already investing time in. And it’s a targeted upgrade. Absolutely no randomness about it at all. That carries a penalty, but it’s tradeoff is huge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Sounds fine to me. As someone who doesn't do organized raiding, it's just nice having interesting procs and effects on gear outside of raids again. Item level only goes so far in keeping gear interesting.
    I agree, I think it works just fine as it is. Even as a raider, I appreciate the system. Through it I can target weak slots on my alts, quickly and with predictable results. That’s huge. I’d take that over random rewards, even with a minor ilvl penalty. I think that tradeoff is worthwhile.
    Last edited by Jargathnan; 2019-06-03 at 05:37 PM.

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Why are you avoiding the question?

    Robe of the Archmage (made by tailoring) is Best in Slot up until AQ40 and its bought with gold.

    How did the person farm that gold?

    Killing boars in durotar for several hours a day
    I'd reckon a lot just bought gold from the gold sellers.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  16. #656
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    That's a form of gatekeeping. It's a fucking game. Who cares if people get that gear? They're gonna transmog it anyway. The only reason to bar people from certain items behind "difficulty" gates is to make the people who have gotten past them feel superior. There's literally no other reason for it.
    It has effects on other aspects of the game. Should pet battles give 430+ gear?

  17. #657
    Banned MechaCThun's Avatar
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    I can't believe it took 30 pages for everybody to realize @Togabito has no real interest in "discussion" or "debate" - it's him incessantly spewing out his opinions on things and refusing to understand others counterpoints. Just look at all of the threads he starts. Same shit, different day(s).

  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by KLOCKWERK View Post
    I can't believe it took 30 pages for everybody to realize @Togabito has no real interest in "discussion" or "debate" - it's him incessantly spewing out his opinions on things and refusing to understand others counterpoints. Just look at all of the threads he starts. Same shit, different day(s).
    Even if he doesn't personally want to do anything besides repeat the same flawed points over and over, I think the topic itself has a lot of value for discussion independent of his views. And since Blizzard is the lead MMO developer for the time being, design choices they make are always going to spark discussion.
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  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Casual means you don't play frequently and as such stick to baseline content. People who log more hours a year than mythic raiders LOVE to insist they're casual when they pretty much devote their life to the game and are just too terrible to actually do real content. Those people are not casual players. A player who logs in maybe an hour a day or 2 days a week for a few hours is a casual player. It has nothing to do with what content you do these days short of mythic raids which take a little more of a rigid schedule whereas heroic raids can be cleared by the most casual player in the world assuming they have the gear.
    Complete elitist BS. Many players don't do raiding or mythic keystones because they only like to play a couple of hours a day and don't have the time committment. That doesn't make them terrible players nor does it mean they aren't doing real content. You need to get off your high horse

  20. #660
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Complete elitist BS. Many players don't do raiding or mythic keystones because they only like to play a couple of hours a day and don't have the time committment. That doesn't make them terrible players nor does it mean they aren't doing real content. You need to get off your high horse
    I think you might have misinterpreted what he was saying. He said(and I'm paraphrasing here) "players who spend MORE hours than Mythic raiders claiming to be 'casual', when they're really just bad at the game".
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