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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedrielle View Post
    Oh, please do explain. Is the baby less human? What did the baby in that case do to be less than human and deserve murdering?
    The baby doesn't deserve it but the difference is that the mother didn't consent to conceiving it which means she lacks the obligation to take responsibility for it. If she chose to have sex even with contraception (which is not 100% effective) then she does have that obligation because that is a clear possible outcome for her decisions whether or not it was the desired one.

  2. #62
    Its simple really, is it your body? If not then mind your own business. It is not up to someone to push their faith onto others regardless of what faith that is or how popular it is.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    Its simple really, is it your body?
    I think the centre of the problem here is that they do believe they should be able to own other people's bodies.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by dippinsawse View Post
    That isn't at all comparable. When you have sex you have to understand that such a decision has the possibility to produce pregnancy no matter what precautions you take. Therefore if you don't want kids you should avoid having sex or accept the consequences. Rape is an example where I think abortion is almost always justified. Unless you want to argue that if you injure someone and they need an organ that you should be forced to give them one of your organs if they need it to survive. I would agree with that in principle but it just wouldn't be very effective or reasonable in practice so that is just silly.

    There's also the issue that organs are obviously nothing like a child growing inside of you. Organs are to keep you alive and they are yours. A child growing inside of you is not yours. You made yourself responsible for its wellbeing when you chose to have sex, it is YOUR "job" to keep IT alive. Sometimes it can't be helped and the best decision for that unborn child is to abort it and as its parent you have the right to make that decision, but you are still responsible for it barring certain circumstances like rape or being too young to be able to truly understand your role as a parent when you got pregnant etc.
    If this is how you want to live your life, go for it. There is however no logical reasons for anyone else to do so and you certainly do not have the right to tell people how to live their lives or when they can have sex. Recreational sex is nothing anyone should be ashamed of, man or woman.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by dippinsawse View Post
    The baby doesn't deserve it but the difference is that the mother didn't consent to conceiving it which means she lacks the obligation to take responsibility for it. If she chose to have sex even with contraception (which is not 100% effective) then she does have that obligation because that is a clear possible outcome for her decisions whether or not it was the desired one.
    Here's the thing: It's not acceptable by law for the victim, or anyone else to kill the rapist. Why is it acceptable to then kill the baby? If it's human being with rights as per pro life arguments, then you need to do better job at explaining than that. I'm not saying that wasn't decent explanation, simply, that it's not good enough.

  6. #66
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    Wait wait wait, no exemption for rape or incest? They're fucking out of their minds.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    Its simple really, is it your body? If not then mind your own business. It is not up to someone to push their faith onto others regardless of what faith that is or how popular it is.
    Are we not allowed to have the opinion that murder is wrong unless it affects us? It's not your body.

    This situation is more complicated that that to be fair, and i'm not trying to say there is equivalence there, but, "It's not your body," is a stupid argument. If someone thinks it is wrong to do that to an unborn child it doesn't have to personally affect them for it to be wrong or for them to have an opinion on it.

  8. #68
    Cool, I'm really glad the right has regressed the US to the point where this is being discussed again. Gotta love it.

    PSA for anyone who thinks abortion is some kind of act of heinous baby-killing: already, virtually every if not all doctors who practice it will refuse if it's a late-stage pregnancy. Actual formed babies with functioning brains are virtually never aborted unless it would come at the cost of the mother's life. Hell, in most states that's already outlawed.

    Abortions aren't cheap afterthoughts, and the entire idea that they are or ever were is a fake narrative spun by moms on facebook or hard-right religious conservatives. The biggest group people this could potentially harm is the poor who can't travel out of state like any middle or high-class family would to find a doctor who will perform the abortion. People who can't afford to raise a child.

    Worse yet, in a place like Alabama (no offense, and yes I know it's mostly a stereotype) the lack of exceptions for things like incest and rape are a horrible idea. There are going to be a lot of fucked up children - both physically and mentally - born into the world if this passes. We don't want this, and honestly, if conservatives actually stopped for a second to think about the implications they'd realize that no, they probably don't want it either.
    Last edited by Irian; 2019-05-10 at 10:23 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedrielle View Post
    Here's the thing: It's not acceptable by law for the victim, or anyone else to kill the rapist. Why is it acceptable to then kill the baby? If it's human being with rights as per pro life arguments, then you need to do better job at explaining than that. I'm not saying that wasn't decent explanation, simply, that it's not good enough.
    A fetus isn't a baby. There are already laws in place that prevent abortions from happening once it can viably survive outside the womb with medical assistance.

    EDIT: Barring major exceptions such as, y'know, it'll kill the mother, that kinda thing.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedrielle View Post
    Here's the thing: It's not acceptable by law for the victim, or anyone else to kill the rapist. Why is it acceptable to then kill the baby? If it's human being with rights as per pro life arguments, then you need to do better job at explaining than that. I'm not saying that wasn't decent explanation, simply, that it's not good enough.
    Because the government can't make you responsible for someone else's wellbeing, it can only protect those you have already obligated yourself to care for which is why we have things like child support and alimony. If you were raped you never took on that obligation for yourself and so the state can't force it on you.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    So will they overturn Roe vs. Wade?
    Not going to happen. While Generation Z may be called the "conservative" generation; they are that fiscally but absolutely not socially. What you see here is the last kicks of a dying horse - elderly white men trying to turn the world into some kind of fantasy where they still get to dictate their twisted "morals". Thankfully, the rest of of the world has been paying less and less attention to these clowns as time goes by.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    A fetus isn't a baby. There are already laws in place that prevent abortions from happening once it can viably survive outside the womb with medical assistance.

    EDIT: Barring major exceptions such as, y'know, it'll kill the mother, that kinda thing.
    I think you are of the belief that the people you are arguing with are ignorant rather then simply not caring. You can argue that a fetus isn't a life much like you can argue a seed isn't a plant. Both can not survive without something else. One a womb the other earth.

    The problem is you seem to think that people should put stock in your beliefs and well... your time in the sun is fading its time for a new age to start.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    A fetus isn't a baby. There are already laws in place that prevent abortions from happening once it can viably survive outside the womb with medical assistance.

    EDIT: Barring major exceptions such as, y'know, it'll kill the mother, that kinda thing.
    Thanks. I think you might need couple earlier posts as context tho

    Quote Originally Posted by dippinsawse View Post
    Because the government can't make you responsible for someone else's wellbeing, it can only protect those you have already obligated yourself to care for which is why we have things like child support and alimony. If you were raped you never took on that obligation for yourself and so the state can't force it on you.
    Sorry, but that's even weaker reasoning. Seeing the problem yet? When your whole ideology is about saving babys from being murdered, then the moment you cross that due to reasons outside of what the baby has done, your whole argument becomes irrelevant. So yes, they were trick questions. You make arbitrary exceptions that go directly against your own core argument, thus making it impotent. If you're allowed to make random exceptions against your whole ideology, now why on earth shouldn't I be allowed to make even more exceptions, especially when I don't hold such ideology to cross in the first place?
    Last edited by Aedrielle; 2019-05-10 at 10:31 PM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    A fetus isn't a baby.
    Hey now! That amorphous, undefined blob of cells is totally a baby, how could you possibly even think to kill that amorphous, undefined blob?!?
    Often updated... ?

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Najnaj View Post
    If this is how you want to live your life, go for it. There is however no logical reasons for anyone else to do so and you certainly do not have the right to tell people how to live their lives or when they can have sex. Recreational sex is nothing anyone should be ashamed of, man or woman.
    I never said I was trying to control anyone on this issue, I said the opposite. I think abortion is gross and should be avoided but I think people have the right to decide for themselves if it is the best thing for their child/family and that the issue is ambiguous enough that the state shouldn't be able to say what is right and wrong for it.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by dippinsawse View Post
    Are we not allowed to have the opinion that murder is wrong unless it affects us? It's not your body.

    This situation is more complicated that that to be fair, and i'm not trying to say there is equivalence there, but, "It's not your body," is a stupid argument. If someone thinks it is wrong to do that to an unborn child it doesn't have to personally affect them for it to be wrong or for them to have an opinion on it.
    I honestly do not think it is murder because it still requires the supposed mothers body to be alive. Now if it was out of the body and did normal bodily functions sure in that case it would be murder but my point is that the partner to the person wanting an abortion has no say regardless of the situation as that is not their body so in essence they have no rights to it either. As someone stated earlier is a seed a plant and the like? I had a vasectomy because i do not want children and thankfully my partners did not want them either.

    The biggest problem is punishing people for this medical procedure, it would be akin to criminalizing what i opted to have done to prevent having children. I am sure the mental strain is rough for even thinking about the idea of having one. Not including the after effects of having one so lets kick and hurt people further by putting them in jail is a bit barbaric if you ask me. Until a large economic commitment is not required to have a child i cant honestly get behind something that openly takes away the rights of a consenting adult.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedrielle View Post
    Thanks. I think you might need couple earlier posts as context tho



    Sorry, but that's even weaker reasoning. Seeing the problem yet? When your whole ideology is about saving babys from being murdered, then the moment you cross that due to reasons outside of what the baby has done, your whole argument becomes irrelevant. So yes, they were trick questions. You make arbitrary exceptions that go directly against your own core argument, thus making it impotent. If you're allowed to make random exceptions against your whole ideology, now why on earth shouldn't I be allowed to make even more exceptions, especially when I don't hold such ideology to cross in the first place?
    No, I don't see the problem. What you are insinuating is absurd. There aren't black and white rules of what outcome must happen with another person's life just because they have that right. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to defend yourself and kill someone who is threatening your life because they have the right to live. And you can't force someone to go out of their way to protect and save the life of someone else just because they have the right to live. The fact is that there are circumstances that alter how you are able to treat people according to their human rights. Those weren't trick questions, they were were stupid questions.

    You are making the mistake of thinking the argument comes down to what rights the unborn child has which is incorrect. The argument comes down to what responsibility the mother has to her own child. My stance from the beginning was that the rights of the unborn child were irrelevant because there isn't a consensus on when it is its own sovereign human entity. Again, I am pro choice. But as a thought experiment we had to examine this from the angle that both sides' opinions on when it is alive and has rights were correct and therefore the operating principle is what responsibility and rights the mother has, not the child's. And ultimately the mother who consented to conceiving the child is almost always responsible.

    But im not trying to take over the thread so ill leave it there.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    Cool, I'm really glad the right has regressed the US to the point where this is being discussed again. Gotta love it.

    PSA for anyone who thinks abortion is some kind of act of heinous baby-killing: already, virtually every if not all doctors who practice it will refuse if it's a late-stage pregnancy. Actual formed babies with functioning brains are virtually never aborted unless it would come at the cost of the mother's life. Hell, in most states that's already outlawed.

    Abortions aren't cheap afterthoughts, and the entire idea that they are or ever were is a fake narrative spun by moms on facebook or hard-right religious conservatives. The biggest group people this could potentially harm is the poor who can't travel out of state like any middle or high-class family would to find a doctor who will perform the abortion. People who can't afford to raise a child.

    Worse yet, in a place like Alabama (no offense, and yes I know it's mostly a stereotype) the lack of exceptions for things like incest and rape are a horrible idea. There are going to be a lot of fucked up children - both physically and mentally - born into the world if this passes. We don't want this, and honestly, if conservatives actually stopped for a second to think about the implications they'd realize that no, they probably don't want it either.
    I kind of feel the same way. I hate abortion with every fiber of my being, but the path presented with an illegal abortion isn't one this country should be walking again. Having discussions is a good thing. We review the topic and see if there's new arguments for or against. I used to be solidly pro choice. Now I'm pro life with the knowledge that abortion is a necessary evil in this world. Medical science needs to catch up so that contraception means 100% chance of not getting pregnant, and then the abortion debate will vanish because people will only get pregnant if they want to.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by szechuan View Post
    In reality Pro-Life advocates are just Pro-Birth.

    They don't really care too much about Life after Birth. Then again, they're not even really Pro-Birth, a lot of them seem to care even less about all the issues surrounding Cost and Procedures around Birth.
    You'd have a good argument, except that evangelicals and pro life people donate to charity in far greater amounts than pro choice people.
    Quote Originally Posted by blobbydan View Post
    We're all doomed. Let these retards shuffle the chairs on the titanic. They can die in a safe space if they want to... Whatever. What a miserable joke this life is. I can't wait until it's all finally over and I can return to the sweet oblivion of the void.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fincayra View Post
    You'd have a good argument, except that evangelicals and pro life people donate to charity in far greater amounts than pro choice people.
    They donate to "charity".

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
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  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by dippinsawse View Post
    I never said I was trying to control anyone on this issue, I said the opposite. I think abortion is gross and should be avoided but I think people have the right to decide for themselves if it is the best thing for their child/family and that the issue is ambiguous enough that the state shouldn't be able to say what is right and wrong for it.
    Therefore if you don't want kids you should avoid having sex or accept the consequences. Rape is an example where I think abortion is almost always justified.
    Justified? Abortion doesn't need to be justified and it is not ambiguous at all if done early.

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