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  1. #21
    use EP/GP

    http://www.epgpweb.com/help/system

    Hopefully RCLootmaster will have a Classic version.

  2. #22
    suicide kings is the best loot system I've used in Wow
    We cannot go back. That's why it's hard to choose. You have to make the right choice. As long as you don't choose, everything remains possible.

  3. #23
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    The other way to do this in a large raid when people aren't necessarily showing high attendance is EPGP with decay. Rewards the people who show up more often than those that don't (so the raid tends to have more of the loot that's dropped present). It also avoid the "Bob has tons of DKP, is away for 2 months, comes back and grabs the coveted item on the boss that he's not helped to get on farm" thing. Filter that by roles (no, the DPS warrior doesn't get tank gear over the tank) and you're close.

    Council works better if everyone is showing up almost all of the time but how often is that the case in 40 mans? Right. It works in current mythic, but I don't see it working as well in classic 40 mans.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunwrathmother View Post
    Back in the day, our main tank had prio to all the loot he wished. I remember his arrogant ass getting not only tank gear, but also any dps item he felt fancy about, for his dps/threat set ( even the first drake fang talisman that dropped for our guild ) ignoring all the other raiders. He was not affected by the DKP system we all had to endure because he was "the main tank".

    Like we owed him the gear that dropped, like he was carrying us all. We started all with equal gear and soon we fed him with so many epics in order to survive (he was a total noob ) that it was unprofitable to lose him from the raid. We had to constantly keep him happy! That was vanilla mentality. Tanks were rare and good tanks were so scarce, that guilds were giving earth and water to have them in heir ranks.

    I still remember his anger when I started offtanking with my druid bear pulling agrro from him and surviving broodlord better than his overgearred ass, he even whispered to healers not to heal me because its a meme spec.
    I remember his fellow warriors having to settle with the leftovers he didnt want (or already had in his bags) in terms of gear and weapons and still having to lose DKP for these items.
    I remember them cheering for having a bear offtank so that they could focus on dps and enjoy their class. Still he refused to tank with me because "only warriors are tanks" and that was after the bear druid fix of patch 1.8
    He knew very little about his class and absolutely nothing about druids, however his word was the law. He thought it was preposterous for me to be a healer with 30 points in feral tree (30/21 HotW/NS build) and not be full resto like our guild master. Afterall, druids are only good for healing he said.

    Then there was the guild master. She was a full resto druid with zero skills, always the first to die and the first to ask for a battle rez only to die again. I dont know how we managed to kill 2 bosses in Nax before TBC launch with so many noobs in our ranks.
    She was also not affected by the DKP system. I cryied for every item she had reserved before each boss kill, for it was a waste.

    Our raid leader was cool, he never abused his position and he was more informed about classes and mechanics. He knew that the GM was worthless and our tank a lootwhore jerk but he had a lot on his plate and didnt want to get involved with drama (or spend weeks recruiting another tank) so he stayed away from all this. Afterall, we killed bosses and that was enough for him.


    So that brings me to the main topic.
    In a 40 man raid with loot been scarce how are you guys going to prioritise gear?
    Are you going to follow dkp system or loot council?

    I havent played in any private servers, always stayed in retail in competitive PVE (top 5 guild race in server since TBC) and with 20-25 man raids its easier to manage loot.
    I stopped in mythic Jaina progression about a month ago because or real life issues and now I m planning to return in classic since I m already 41 years old with familly and I cant follow the hardcore grind/race anymore, only to be a god for 3 months and then start all over again because new patch is making old gear irrelevant.

    What are your thoughts about the best loot distribution system in vanilla 40 man raids?
    I know gearing tanks is crucial in vanilla but what is the golden line? We are planning to have a bear tank for early MC because druids have almost half of their bis gear available early on (weapon, trinkets, fire resistance gear, high stamina) so that we can gear our warriors faster.
    We havent decided what system to use though...DKP or something different.
    Any feedback?

    Thanks in advance!
    theres your problem right there, your raid leader was a woman

    Infracted {MoanaLisa}
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2019-05-11 at 05:11 PM.

  5. #25
    My personal favorite throughout the majority of wow was DKPs, and we even used a alternative method to it, with actual bidding for items.

    EP\GP is probably easier to use\maintain\understand though.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    My guild used dkp but with set prices for every item, so no bidding wars. You either had the most points of all player who wanted the item or you didn't. I thought that was quite nice, we had "class cliques" of course, within my class we talked about set items who wants to get 5 piece bonus or whatever and most of the time just agreed whose turn it was. But since everyone paid the same for their T2 helmet or whatever that's fine.
    When it comes to DKP systems, I'm not that keen on fixed prices. The idea behind a competitive bidding process is that players pay as close to their willingness to pay as possible (willingness to pay depends on a variety of factors, such as their current items, role in the raid and offspec). Fixed prices go against this: A item might be more valuable to one player than another because of the variables, but that can't be reflected in the price if it is fixed. Another problem presents itself when the next tier opens up: Do we reduce the fixed prices of the last tier pieces, and if so by how much? If prices are allowed to be determined by competitive bidding, then many of these issues can be avoided.

    In one guild I raided in, we used DKP for all slots apart from for trinkets, main-hand and off-hand slots. Trinkets, main-hand and off-hand slots went to loot council. That helped to reduce the instance of DKP hoarding for trinkets and weapons.
    Last edited by Altariaz; 2019-05-10 at 06:42 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Altarion View Post
    When it comes to DKP systems, I'm not that keen on fixed prices. The idea behind a competitive bidding process is that players pay as close to their willingness to pay as possible (willingness to pay depends on a variety of factors, such as their current items, role in the raid and offspec). Fixed prices go against this: A item might be more valuable to one player than another because of the variables, but that can't be reflected in the price if it is fixed. Another problem presents itself when the next tier opens up: Do we reduce the fixed prices of the last tier pieces, and if so by how much? If prices are allowed to be determined by competitive bidding, then many of these issues can be avoided.
    First part: valid concern. However, fixed prices make loot distribution faster and prevent underrepresented classes who get their Tier set for minimum bid from hoovering up weapons and jewelry.

    Second part: items for new content did cost more, I don't know the exact prices anymore, but something like 25% more expensive (also earned more). At the same time we cut all existing dkp to 10% so relative positions of players didn't change and the same persons had most dkp as before. At the same time noone could stockpile dkp in old content because it took just one raid evening to earn more points than 10% of stockpiling would get you.

  8. #28
    Best solution is not to run with a bunch of d-bags. I think that matters a lot more than the specific system you use. Any system clearly explained to raiders and consistently applied is superior to any system not explained or inconsistently applied.

    I was a raid leader which meant the responsibility fell to me. We used NDKP system and very sparingly if there was something the tank needed for us to progress an open discussion would be had and I don't ever remember hard feelings, and the tank would still have to pay the points. I was not an amazing raid leader, but people knew what to expect and I don't believe were ever surprised. We had people quit for various reasons, but never over loot shenanigans.

  9. #29
    DKP only makes sense with fixed item prize and insta win for highest guy who needs tbh. Nothing worse than some idiots fucking with the bets to remove more points.

  10. #30
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...e-To-Deal-With
    Inherent Problems Vanilla Loot Systems Have to Deal With

    I don’t recommend loot council unless it’s a super hardcore group of players that have been playing extra-curricularly for years. The kind of people that know off the top of their head what Band of Accuria is.

    Anything else is ... well there are more philosophical questions in classic, that thread is about them. But some sort of DKP where people are required to bid on upgrades are reasonable. I’ve also heard good things about EPGP.

    The more “fair” a system is the more work it is to maintain, too, and with 40 people it can get to be a job.
    Last edited by garicasha; 2019-05-11 at 05:18 AM.
    Reminders of what vanilla was like: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...nilla-was-like

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    ....Because the main tank IS "carrying you all". Your main tank is the most important person to gear in the entire raid. Better gear on the MT means better threat, which means your DPS can go full ham and not worry about pulling aggro. It all means less chance of him dying and the raid wiping on untauntable bosses.

    Sounds like you're pretty selfish with purples if you whine and moan about the main tank getting loot first.
    I think you missed the point.
    It was the attitude of the tank that was the problem. The elitistic behaviour and the lootwhoring.
    We all wanted to gear him up, but it was a team effort and he couldnt realise it! He soon started acting like a diva ignoring all the time and effort the rest of the raid put every night.
    Getting bis items from dpsers for his threat set was not ok when the rest of the raid is barely scratching the boss. Threat gear becomes important when the overall dps starts ramping up and you need it to keep up with a good geared team behind you!

    It was a prime example of a kid changing attitude when he gets all the gear he wants, stopping from been a team player and acting like a jerk.
    This is what caused drama and soon he became alienated from the guild. It was so apparent that when TBC launched NOBODY wanted him on their 5 man groups. He even stopped raiding after 6 months because he couldnt cope with the idea of not been the diva in the raid, having to tank with an overpowered bear druid (me), cursing blizzard of ruining the warrior class by making druids able to tank as well...
    He started playing in private servers because he wanted that attention.

    On the topic, Classic is here to stay. That said, everyone will get the gear they want at some point. It is just a matter of time. MC/BWL are going to be farmed even when Nax is released. Old content gear is not irrelevant every time a new raid opens like retail. So for consistent raiders it will be possible to have 2-3 fully geared characters after a year of Nax farm.
    I want to avoid the early drama in our guild of toxic players with retail mentality that want easy, fast epics and I slowly realise that there is no such thing as fair system. Someone will not be happy and someone will have to get the shortest stick. Its unavoidable I guess. Its...vanilla!

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Your Main tank SHOULD get the first DFT that drops.

    Still, he sounds like an asshole; that doesn't change the fact that all things being equal, your MT should be getting priority on some of the best DPS items out of MC and BWL to assist in threat and get the bosses killed much faster, Drakefang Talisman and Band of Accuria being two important ones that will make the fury/rogues/hunters salty.
    This.

    Your entire raids dps is limited by how much threat your MT can produce in vanilla. Nothing gives you a greater benefit then feeding them gear, and while I don't doubt the guy was a douche the OPs confirmation bias of not being the MT probably didn't help his perception on the matter.

  13. #33
    Old God endersblade's Avatar
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    Back in Vanilla, when I was GM of my guild, I worked it like this:

    Main Tank had first call on tank gear, main healer had first call on healer gear, after that it was whoever needed it the most. Something would drop, anyone who needed it would link what they had in that slot, then the raid would vote for who needed it the most. If two people had the same or similar gear, we compared the rest of what they were wearing. This overall would bring up the raid's damage instead of gearing up one or two people. Made people happy because they knew they would eventually get something.
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  14. #34
    i know only 1 thing my gf is getting the loot first don t know and don t care about rest

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by endersblade View Post
    Back in Vanilla, when I was GM of my guild, I worked it like this:

    Main Tank had first call on tank gear, main healer had first call on healer gear, after that it was whoever needed it the most. Something would drop, anyone who needed it would link what they had in that slot, then the raid would vote for who needed it the most. If two people had the same or similar gear, we compared the rest of what they were wearing. This overall would bring up the raid's damage instead of gearing up one or two people. Made people happy because they knew they would eventually get something.
    Oh main healer LUL, I even forgot that a concept like that existed.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    theres your problem right there, your raid leader was a woman
    your problem seems to be reading, OP clearly says RL is a man

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by lonely zergling View Post
    DKP only makes sense with fixed item prize and insta win for highest guy who needs tbh. Nothing worse than some idiots fucking with the bets to remove more points.
    My guild used a Zero Sum DKP system that worked this way. It was very effective at dealing with drama and arguments, everyone already knew where they were in the queue for an item, so when DFT's and other high value loot dropped everyone already knew where it was going. It distrubuted loot in a way that was completely transparent and equal to everyone involved.

    The obvious downside being that it didn't always get loot into the hands of people who could use it the most or the best. It's just as flawed a system as any other, but in a completely different way.

  18. #38
    Yeah we used a silent auction system with DKP in the only Guild I did raids with in vanilla. We kept the DKP list public so people can see where everyone was at but you would bid on items through PM to the Raid Leader. So if you really wanted an item you could bid 1 point over the max someone else had or if you didn't really care you could bid low and still might manage to win it.

    I didn't know any better at the time but there are other methods that are better nowadays but you will always deal with potential corruption with systems like these unless you keep it 100% transparent.
    Last edited by xpose; 2019-05-11 at 01:24 PM.

  19. #39
    We used the DKP system with set prices for each slot, but tanks get to buy stuff with half price.

  20. #40
    My 9 year long working raiding guild I joined early vanilla used zero-sum-DKP system with tank loot exceptions. The standings/lootorder was public and it was allright, never had huge loot drama. Later on we changed the system a bit, so players with high attendance and lots of time for playing the game got additional DKP and loot priority.

    It makes no sense to feed gear to players not been able to play a lot or have to quit in the foreseeable future. We changed MT status quite a few times for the tanks and worked out since everyone was honest about the personal time they had for raiding. This works only within trusted guilds/groups and trust is only earned over time. In the end its healthy for the whole raid, if you give out gear with a simple DKP system and just punish players lying about gaming intentions.

    If there are no consequences - raid-bench/guild-kick/server-wide-ban with connected other guilds - people will not behave and fall back to the anti-social standards they are used to from retail. I met only a few anti-social players and ninja-looting/dramaqueens in vanilla and they never left a huge impact, since each time they were forced pretty fast to switch servers or just quit gaming. Young and/or ignorant players allways underestimate social preassure and how unavoidable this is when everything in the game is player-driven unlike retail WoW.
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