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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't think this is a retcon by Blizzard or anything like that - I am saying that this is Thalyssra being a bit political, subtly rephrasing or re-crouching the reasoning behind Suramar's actions in the War of the Ancients for better optics (specifically for Shandris and the Kaldorei). It has the added bonus of being potentially true, while still obfuscating the obvious protectionism and self-centered rationale of Elisande and the leadership of Suramar at the time.
    They really only had ONE pillar though. Heck they could not even have had the others because the Hammer was in the keeping of Neltharion until Huln found it, the Aegis was kept by Odyn since well before the War, the Tidestone was likely shattered early in the war and it is unlikely the Tear was in Suramar; if it was it would be on the Temple and thus specifically left outside the shield, making the hypocrisy even bigger.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't think this is a retcon by Blizzard or anything like that - I am saying that this is Thalyssra being a bit political, subtly rephrasing or re-crouching the reasoning behind Suramar's actions in the War of the Ancients for better optics (specifically for Shandris and the Kaldorei). It has the added bonus of being potentially true, while still obfuscating the obvious protectionism and self-centered rationale of Elisande and the leadership of Suramar at the time.
    It's completely unneeded though. Suramar put on a shield because there was a Legion army marching on it to punish them for sealing the second portal that Suramar couldn't fight alone and the only one to help them was Ashamane who only slowed them down, giving the people of Suramar the time to construct the shield. It was either shield or annihilation, with Suramar being unable to help the rest of the Night Elves if they got obliterated anyway.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    It's completely unneeded though. Suramar put on a shield because there was a Legion army marching on it to punish them for sealing the second portal that Suramar couldn't fight alone and the only one to help them was Ashamane who only slowed them down, giving the people of Suramar the time to construct the shield. It was either shield or annihilation, with Suramar being unable to help the rest of the Night Elves if they got obliterated anyway.
    They could have left their city and joined the rest of their people that was fighting just a hill over.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    They really only had ONE pillar though. Heck they could not even have had the others because the Hammer was in the keeping of Neltharion until Huln found it, the Aegis was kept by Odyn since well before the War, the Tidestone was likely shattered early in the war and it is unlikely the Tear was in Suramar; if it was it would be on the Temple and thus specifically left outside the shield, making the hypocrisy even bigger.
    According to chronicle the nightborne had the pillars of creation during the war of the ancients and used their power to seal the second legion portal, retreated to suramar and made use of the eye of Aman'thul for the nightwell.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    They could have left their city and joined the rest of their people that was fighting just a hill over.
    Sure but that was quite risky. The nightborne pulled a typical draenei move here.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    According to chronicle the nightborne had the pillars of creation during the war of the ancients and used their power to seal the second legion portal, retreated to suramar and made use of the eye of Aman'thul for the nightwell.
    Yes they used them to seal the Breach but they did not keep them in the city after. The Tidestone was in Nar'thalas, the Hammer was in Neltharion's keeping and the Shield was held by Odyn. Ultimately that part of the Chronicle just doesn't match what happened afterwards; if they had them in the city, how did Deathwing get the hammer without destroying Suramar and the Shield? If they had them and they lost them before they managed to close the city, how did Odyn who was trapped acquire the Aegis (I guess the Valkyra could have lifted it into the Halls?) Also the Tidestone was destroyed in Nar'thalas well BEFORE the shield was erected over Suramar because they one who betrayed Farondis to Azshara was Vandros who was later one of the magisters in Elisande's court within the shield.

    There would have to be a fairly long time gap between Suramar's court closing the portal in the Tomb and them secluding themselves for any of this to work.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    They really only had ONE pillar though. Heck they could not even have had the others because the Hammer was in the keeping of Neltharion until Huln found it, the Aegis was kept by Odyn since well before the War, the Tidestone was likely shattered early in the war and it is unlikely the Tear was in Suramar; if it was it would be on the Temple and thus specifically left outside the shield, making the hypocrisy even bigger.
    Does't really matter insofar as Thalyssra's justification goes, in the end - one Pillar or all of them, she doesn't really explicate (nor would she in this case).
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Does't really matter insofar as Thalyssra's justification goes, in the end - one Pillar or all of them, she doesn't really explicate (nor would she in this case).
    I don't really think this changes the opinions players will have formed for the Nightborne anyway tbh. It's completely superfluous information

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    It's completely unneeded though. Suramar put on a shield because there was a Legion army marching on it to punish them for sealing the second portal that Suramar couldn't fight alone and the only one to help them was Ashamane who only slowed them down, giving the people of Suramar the time to construct the shield. It was either shield or annihilation, with Suramar being unable to help the rest of the Night Elves if they got obliterated anyway.
    Thalyssra's rationale lacks the ability to apply the cowardice rebuttal, however; or at least doesn't make it as easy to apply. Whether or not one considers Suramar's actions to be understandable it's very obvious Shandris has her own ideas - likely a product of what she's been told (as Shandris was just a little girl during the War of the Ancients). Trying to explain the dire situation of Suramar during the War probably wouldn't do much to offset Shandris' current biases.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I don't really think this changes the opinions players will have formed for the Nightborne anyway tbh. It's completely superfluous information
    Well she's talking to Shandris here, and not the player themselves - and it's Shandris (or herself) that she's trying to convince.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    There would have to be a fairly long time gap between Suramar's court closing the portal in the Tomb and them secluding themselves for any of this to work.
    With the exception of the the hammer and the tidestone the other pillars could have been scattered over the broken isles over the course of several thousand years after the war. All we have is chronicle saying the nightborne got them at one point and used them, with Thalyssra expanding on it, yet how the pillars were scattered still remains a mystery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I don't really think this changes the opinions players will have formed for the Nightborne anyway tbh. It's completely superfluous information
    The nightborne were a bunch of cowards and quite selfish, as I said prior they pulled a draenei move.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2019-05-12 at 02:51 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Thalyssra's rationale lacks the ability to apply the cowardice rebuttal, however; or at least doesn't make it as easy to apply. Whether or not one considers Suramar's actions to be understandable it's very obvious Shandris has her own ideas - likely a product of what she's been told (as Shandris was just a little girl during the War of the Ancients). Trying to explain the dire situation of Suramar during the War probably wouldn't do much to offset Shandris' current biases.
    Tbh I am a bit confused about this. Ashamane's story makes the situation in Suramar seem dire. Meanwhile the Chronicle does the opposite; the way that paragraph is written it makes it feel like the danger to Suramar after they shut the portal off was no longer immediate; it says "Fearing calamity" and "fortifying their holdings" both of which imply they had time to work.

  11. #31
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Tbh I am a bit confused about this. Ashamane's story makes the situation in Suramar seem dire. Meanwhile the Chronicle does the opposite; the way that paragraph is written it makes it feel like the danger to Suramar after they shut the portal off was no longer immediate; it says "Fearing calamity" and "fortifying their holdings" both of which imply they had time to work.
    I think the situation in Suramar was dire - but not conclusively impossible, as it were. Basically the Nightborne to be faced this essential conundrum: oppose the Legion and risk annihilation, or shield themselves and live to fight another day. The risk was a high one, but not so high that to fight was to be killed outright. They opted not to fight, and instead to raise their shield over Suramar City and wait out the Legion. Objectively speaking that's not cowardice, it was a reasoned and rational response to what they faced, but the rest of the Kaldorei who fought and died to actually end the threat of the Legion are obviously going to see that a bit differently.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Tbh I am a bit confused about this. Ashamane's story makes the situation in Suramar seem dire. Meanwhile the Chronicle does the opposite; the way that paragraph is written it makes it feel like the danger to Suramar after they shut the portal off was no longer immediate; it says "Fearing calamity" and "fortifying their holdings" both of which imply they had time to work.
    It all works in tandem the nightborne feared calamity and it came, though chances are they were not aware of how close it actually was, due to Ashamane stopping the demons.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think the situation in Suramar was dire - but not conclusively impossible, as it were. Basically the Nightborne to be faced this essential conundrum: oppose the Legion and risk annihilation, or shield themselves and live to fight another day. The risk was a high one, but not so high that to fight was to be killed outright. They opted not to fight, and instead to raise their shield over Suramar City and wait out the Legion. Objectively speaking that's not cowardice, it was a reasoned and rational response to what they faced, but the rest of the Kaldorei who fought and died to actually end the threat of the Legion are obviously going to see that a bit differently.
    They also had the option to circle around and abandon the city while joining the resistance. Like many other Highborne did.

    I mean ultimately Suramar decided to shield itself because Elisande's chronomantic divinations told her that in all possible futures the resistance would lose. Same way that she submitted to Gul'dan because the Legion would in all futures win. It really tells us that Elisande was a quack and the Nightborne were better of trusting their horoscopes

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Objectively speaking that's not cowardice, it was a reasoned and rational response to what they faced, but the rest of the Kaldorei who fought and died to actually end the threat of the Legion are obviously going to see that a bit differently.
    I have to disagree here, it was clear cut cowardice, the entire planet was at risk it is in such moments that you can't just sit back and ignore the threat, sure they saved the planet ultimately, but just saying we are done here while the legion rampages on was a terrible move, if they had put up the shield waited until the demons left the area and then attacked them from the rear, now that would have been sensible.

  15. #35
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    They also had the option to circle around and abandon the city while joining the resistance. Like many other Highborne did.

    I mean ultimately Suramar decided to shield itself because Elisande's chronomantic divinations told her that in all possible futures the resistance would lose. Same way that she submitted to Gul'dan because the Legion would in all futures win. It really tells us that Elisande was a quack and the Nightborne were better of trusting their horoscopes
    Elisande wasn't aware that her divination ability was less than perfect - she couldn't account for futures she couldn't rightly see (and given her arrogance she likely felt it was impossible). The leadership of Suramar could have done a lot of things, and some of those things might've gotten them all killed, and some of them might have seen them hailed as heroes even today. But they didn't choose that, instead they chose to hide and wait out the war. They and their knowledge survived into modern times as a result, and now their Kaldorei brethren regard them as cowards (not at all helped by the fact that most of them joined the Legion later on).
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It all works in tandem the nightborne feared calamity and it came, though chances are they were not aware of how close it actually was, due to Ashamane stopping the demons.
    Not Ashamane alone. I mean the Resistance and the Moonguard were also fighting in that location. To understand Tyrande, it is very possible that several in the Resistance were fighting to save Suramar, only to find the city suddenly city and themselves abandoned right outside it.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    I have to disagree here, it was clear cut cowardice, the entire planet was at risk it is in such moments that you can't just sit back and ignore the threat, sure they saved the planet ultimately, but just saying we are done here while the legion rampages on was a terrible move, if they had put up the shield waited until the demons left the area and then attacked them from the rear, now that would have been sensible.
    I don't really regard going out in a "blaze of glory" as a show of strength, personally - the Nightborne thought the cause was lost and to fight meant death as Elisande herself had foreseen the result ending in failure. Ignoring the threat would've meant doing nothing at all - they reacted by putting up the shield, unwilling to die for what would been nothing from their perspective. They were ultimately in error, but that doesn't make them cowards either.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't really regard going out in a "blaze of glory" as a show of strength, personally - the Nightborne thought the cause was lost and to fight meant death as Elisande herself had foreseen the result ending in failure. Ignoring the threat would've meant doing nothing at all - they reacted by putting up the shield, unwilling to die for what would been nothing from their perspective. They were ultimately in error, but that doesn't make them cowards either.
    Considering they remained holed up under that shield for 10k years straight, despite having limited outside contact with odyn for example, so they knew the legion was gone, yet still remaining under the shield, so I have to disagree.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Considering they remained holed up under that shield for 10k years straight, despite having limited outside contact with odyn for example, so they knew the legion was gone, yet still remaining under the shield, so I have to disagree.
    Once the Legion was defeated did it really matter what they did or didn't do, at least insofar as concerns cowardice? When the Sundering happened they became part of a little island floating out to sea with no knowledge of what happened to the rest of Kalimdor-that-was or their Kaldorei cousins. Tyrande and Malfurion thought Suramar destroyed, and they likely thought the same of everyone else. Having limited contact with Odyn (himself imprisoned in the Halls of Valor) wouldn't tell them a whole lot - obviously not enough for them to risk dropping the shield.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Once the Legion was defeated did it really matter what they did or didn't do, at least insofar as concerns cowardice? When the Sundering happened they became part of a little island floating out to sea with no knowledge of what happened to the rest of Kalimdor-that-was or their Kaldorei cousins. Tyrande and Malfurion thought Suramar destroyed, and they likely thought the same of everyone else. Having limited contact with Odyn (himself imprisoned in the Halls of Valor) wouldn't tell them a whole lot - obviously not enough for them to risk dropping the shield.
    Yeah it does, they had means to communicate with the outside world, could have rebuild their society in the surrounding area, it became obvious the legion did not win. Odyn's val'kyr operate planet wide there is absolutely no reason they wouldn't have learned what had happened, so the shield became unnecessary, but they chose to keep it up regardless.

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