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  1. #41
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Yeah it does, they had means to communicate with the outside world, could have rebuild their society in the surrounding area, it became obvious the legion did not win. Odyn's val'kyr operate planet wide there is absolutely no reason they wouldn't have learned what had happened, so the shield became unnecessary, but they chose to keep it up regardless.
    Obviously they didn't learn that, though - meaning their contact with Odyn was limited enough that such knowledge was never transmitted (or else they chose not to act on it). Odyn's Val'kyr also don't tend to operate in the physical world, either - they're psychopomps for the most part, so most of their operations would be in the Shadowlands. It seems doubtful the Nightborne had any kind of open and rolling communication with Odyn, either; or else they would've known a lot more about the state of the world post opening of the shield (which they obviously don't). This narrative doesn't scan with what we already know of them.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - The Player, "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead"

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Obviously they didn't learn that, though - meaning their contact with Odyn was limited enough that such knowledge was never transmitted (or else they chose not to act on it). Odyn's Val'kyr also don't tend to operate in the physical world, either - they're psychopomps for the most part, so most of their operations would be in the Shadowlands. It seems doubtful the Nightborne had any kind of open and rolling communication with Odyn, either; or else they would've known a lot more about the state of the world post opening of the shield (which they obviously don't). This narrative doesn't scan with what we already know of them.
    I mean we know they exiled people outside the shield all the time.

    The entire premise of the shield is hilarious anyway. I am sure that if Archimonde marched on it, he'd crack it like an egg, Eye of Aman'thul or not.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Obviously they didn't learn that, though - meaning their contact with Odyn was limited enough that such knowledge was never transmitted (or else they chose not to act on it). Odyn's Val'kyr also don't tend to operate in the physical world, either - they're psychopomps for the most part, so most of their operations would be in the Shadowlands. It seems doubtful the Nightborne had any kind of open and rolling communication with Odyn, either; or else they would've known a lot more about the state of the world post opening of the shield (which they obviously don't). This narrative doesn't scan with what we already know of them.
    They gave him the Aegis at one point, so there must have been quite a bit of correspondence to be honest. The only information that really mattered was the legion did not win.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I mean we know they exiled people outside the shield all the time.

    The entire premise of the shield is hilarious anyway. I am sure that if Archimonde marched on it, he'd crack it like an egg, Eye of Aman'thul or not.
    Now that is doubtful, I mean dalaran was protected in Legion so it wouldn't be sacked like in Wc3. I seriously doubt the Kirin Tor had anything in their city that could compete with the eye.

  4. #44
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I mean we know they exiled people outside the shield all the time.

    The entire premise of the shield is hilarious anyway. I am sure that if Archimonde marched on it, he'd crack it like an egg, Eye of Aman'thul or not.
    People exiled out of the shield had a tendency to die swiftly, and when they actually made the transition to being the Nightborne exile became an out and out death sentence. As for Archimonde, he had his sights set on the Well itself and not Suramar - that was what the Legion were concerned with and not the Nightwell or the Eye of Aman'thul. Fortunate for Suramar that this was the case, as I agree with you - the full might of the Legion would've been more than a match for them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    They gave him the Aegis at one point, so there must have been quite a bit of correspondence to be honest. The only information that really mattered was the legion did not win.
    Not necessarily, and Odyn isn't really the kind to volunteer such information. It is more likely that he simply and imperiously demanded the return of the Aegis and that the Nightborne acceded to the demand. The rest has the feel of trying to look for inconsistencies where none otherwise need to be.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - The Player, "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead"

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Now that is doubtful, I mean dalaran was protected in Legion so it wouldn't be sacked like in Wc3. I seriously doubt the Kirin Tor had anything in their city that could compete with the eye.
    And imo that was just plain stupid. KJ should have been able to knock Dalaran out of the sky. Would have made for a far more dramatic expansion. The six could have maybe stabilized it, leaving it floating on water so they did not have to redo all content.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    And imo that was just plain stupid. KJ should have been able to knock Dalaran out of the sky. Would have made for a far more dramatic expansion. The six could have maybe stabilized it, leaving it floating on water so they did not have to redo all content.
    That is blizz storytelling for you, first they retconned the nightborne in and made quite a few consistency errors with them as a result, then we have dalaran the impenetrable fortress, despite it being utter fodder just a few years prior, the Draenei spearheading the assault on Argus, despite the fact the legion literally mopped the floor with them at the beginning of the xpack, we could barely handle the normal invasion, but the Argus itself not a problem we've got this and the list goes on and on.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Yeah it does, they had means to communicate with the outside world, could have rebuild their society in the surrounding area, it became obvious the legion did not win. Odyn's val'kyr operate planet wide there is absolutely no reason they wouldn't have learned what had happened, so the shield became unnecessary, but they chose to keep it up regardless.
    Gamescom panel 2015, they said the nightborne thought the demons won and had overun Azeroth, that they were the only survivors and letting the shield down would finish them off. This is why exile was so feared and why when they ran low on resources they conjured solutions rather than drop the shield and use natural food, managed to harness arcwine to feed and cloth themselves
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2019-05-13 at 10:29 AM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Gamescom panel 2015, they said the night one thought the demons won and had overruled Azeroth, that they were the only survivors and letting g the shield down would finish them off. This is why exile was so feared and why when they ran low on resources they conjured solutions ra
    Rather than drop the shield and use natural food, managed to harness arcwine to feed themselves
    And what we are saying is that the new comment by Thalyssra suggesting they had the Pillars in there makes no sense because if they had the Hammer or Shield, that means Deathwing or the Val'kyr visited Suramar and it makes even less sense when it comes to the Tidestone or the Tear.

  9. #49
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    And what we are saying is that the new comment by Thalyssra suggesting they had the Pillars in there makes no sense because if they had the Hammer or Shield, that means Deathwing or the Val'kyr visited Suramar and it makes even less sense when it comes to the Tidestone or the Tear.
    It was my understanding that the Pillars of Creation were originally used by the Highborne of Suramar to seal the portal the Legion had created in the Temple of Elune (what would go on to become the Tomb of Sargeras) - this does not necessarily imply that they all returned to their keeping in Suramar. We know that the Eye of Aman'thul did, as it was later used to create the Nightwell, but the Tidestone appeared to be moved to Nar'thalas Academy for study and the Tears of Elune brought to the new Temple of Elune in Val'sharah. It's possible that after the Pillars were used during the War of the Ancients that agents of Neltharion and Odyn recalled their respective Pillars back there and then, and the Highborne's possession of them was only temporarily - meaning that the shield over Suramar was erected solely to defend the Eye of Aman'thul from the Legion (which is probably reason enough given its nature and set of powers). It's also possible that after sealing the portal the Pillars were spread around to use as weapons or defenses against the remaining Legion forces. and were then lost in the upheavals following the Sundering.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - The Player, "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead"

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It was my understanding that the Pillars of Creation were originally used by the Highborne of Suramar to seal the portal the Legion had created in the Temple of Elune (what would go on to become the Tomb of Sargeras) - this does not necessarily imply that they all returned to their keeping in Suramar. We know that the Eye of Aman'thul did, as it was later used to create the Nightwell, but the Tidestone appeared to be moved to Nar'thalas Academy for study and the Tears of Elune brought to the new Temple of Elune in Val'sharah. It's possible that after the Pillars were used during the War of the Ancients that agents of Neltharion and Odyn recalled their respective Pillars back there and then, and the Highborne's possession of them was only temporarily - meaning that the shield over Suramar was erected solely to defend the Eye of Aman'thul from the Legion (which is probably reason enough given its nature and set of powers). It's also possible that after sealing the portal the Pillars were spread around to use as weapons or defenses against the remaining Legion forces. and were then lost in the upheavals following the Sundering.
    For me the more interesting point is that a reasonable amount of time must have passed between Elisande and her court sealing the portal in the Tomb and the shield being erected. The reasoning is the timeline of what happened with Farondis; the Tidestone is move to Nar'thalas, Farondis moves against Azshara, Vandros betrays him, Vandros returns to Suramar as an Azsharan loyalist, the shield is erected. All the above had to happen in that sequence meaning that Elisande did not move to erect the shield for a fair amount of time.

    There is little evidence that the Highbourne of Suramar would have had contact with other places; they seemed quite isolationist (or perhaps elitist) way before then and I just don't see how Elisande was persuaded to hand out her greatest treasures to others but anything about that would be conjecture. If they did spread them around, Neltharion and Odyn claiming those two seems perfectly reasonable.
    It is of course possible that Thalyssra is only talking about the Eye.

  11. #51
    Blizzard could've forgotten the story they've come up with for Suramar, but then again, Thalysra's character might've come into play again. This is the same elf that decided to make her people join a war to kill night elves because Tyrande merely asked her how they could trust them after everything. One sentence rustled her silk jimmies; I wouldn't be surprised if Thalysra is simply disingenuine, a trait she would share with her warchief. Elisande already told us why the shield was brought up and we know this out of character too, which is why Thalysra's take seems to be an unimportant excessive opinion.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It was my understanding that the Pillars of Creation were originally used by the Highborne of Suramar to seal the portal the Legion had created in the Temple of Elune (what would go on to become the Tomb of Sargeras) - this does not necessarily imply that they all returned to their keeping in Suramar. We know that the Eye of Aman'thul did, as it was later used to create the Nightwell, but the Tidestone appeared to be moved to Nar'thalas Academy for study and the Tears of Elune brought to the new Temple of Elune in Val'sharah. It's possible that after the Pillars were used during the War of the Ancients that agents of Neltharion and Odyn recalled their respective Pillars back there and then, and the Highborne's possession of them was only temporarily - meaning that the shield over Suramar was erected solely to defend the Eye of Aman'thul from the Legion (which is probably reason enough given its nature and set of powers). It's also possible that after sealing the portal the Pillars were spread around to use as weapons or defenses against the remaining Legion forces. and were then lost in the upheavals following the Sundering.
    Didn't they say in Gamescom or one of the narrative sections that the Pillars were scattered and hidden after the second portal was closed, the night elves in Suramar kept the Eye of Aman'thul and the others were hidden for safe keeping.


    The Tidestones were shattered by Queen Azshara, which likely means this happens after the 2nd portal is sealed, but before the shield goes up, indicating a substantial period of time.. , the others were hidden with other beings for safe keeping

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think this is a touch of revisionist history on the part of Thalyssra - although it probably *was* a concern the leadership of Suramar had when the Shield idea was broached. Thalyssra is likely taking what was originally an ancillary concern and swapping out for the self-serving and primary concern that Elisande revealed in the Legion storyline. Perhaps that was indeed Thalyssra's primary concern as opposed to Elisande's when the idea for the Shield was being planned.
    Exactly, much like how Chronicles explains things from a cosmic/reader level and how that contradicts things that maybe Brann intreprets things, or how the NEs believe stuff to be. When in reality It may have been something else becasue they were unaware.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post
    Exactly, much like how Chronicles explains things from a cosmic/reader level and how that contradicts things that maybe Brann intreprets things, or how the NEs believe stuff to be. When in reality It may have been something else becasue they were unaware.
    Yeh... that's standard though, and a good tool to use when you need to tweak the official story. Much easier for Brann or the night elves to be wrong than the original narrative

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Yeh... that's standard though, and a good tool to use when you need to tweak the official story. Much easier for Brann or the night elves to be wrong than the original narrative
    Yup. One of they ways Chronicles was a successin my mind. It retconned without retconning.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post
    Yup. One of they ways Chronicles was a successin my mind. It retconned without retconning.
    Indeed, while I understand a certain degree of vagueness is necessary in these things, they must not be afraid of detail when it is good, and shouldnt retcon it either later.

    The stuff they first did with the night elves in wc3 in their origin, set up, and features like immortality and intelligence etc, that was all cool.. they didnt need to nerf or retcon any of it. Rather than reduce them to children of the forest only, they should have expanded them to the children of the stars they were originally called and shown the aspects of their race that fully reflected that down the line. Immortality could have gone, but should have come back etc.

    I just fed up of everytime they visit them, they take something cool away or nelf me further, to the extent they are nowhere near the calibre of competence they had in wc3 or are spoken of in their lore and pre su dering era. This is unnecessary, and theyd be much more enjoyable if stories that were written to nerf them also had stories that buffed them
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2019-05-15 at 09:56 AM.

  17. #57
    It is far more effective and far more immersive to treat the past as history and show it as such via unreliable narrators. It allows for exploration and surprise in the narrative when evidence can emerge that is counter to the known narrative that is simply not possible with an ironclad canon.

    It doesn't help that it feels like the Chronicle is only protected from being retconned by it being pointlessly ambiguous. The most glaring part in Legion was probably with the death of the Pantheon where Norgannon's scheme was explained and then shown as a failure only for Sargeras to somehow have the Pantheon captured in Argus. Yes, the Chronicle does not explicitly say what happened after the Titan essences dispersed when the Keepers failed to contain them but them somehow ending on another planet (or multiple planets if we account for the unexplained sanctum of Eonar in the raid) in a distant part of the universe is simply a cop out. If you are going to invest in canon then that canon should be detailed and ambiguity should be explained through further detail, not through contradiction; a good example would probably be the Forgotten Realms, a MASSIVE fantasy setting with hundreds of writers that still managed to keep a very tight ship with its lore for decades (until the company just decided to nuke it but it got better).

    And the best argument in favour of sticking with an unreliable narrator approach is that WoW's canon feels worthless because we have absolutely no reason to believe that the writers will adher to it when they are on record saying they won't. They say they don't care about the lore if it contradicts the story they want to say and have constantly retconned.

  18. #58
    Immortal ArgusTheUnmaker's Avatar
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    Except the people of Suramar only had 1 Pillar at the time, Azshara already had the Tidestone prior to the Legion's first invasion on Azeroth, the wall was meant to protect the people of Suramar from the Sunwell's destruction, as well as isolate them from the outside world, and also it was believed by even Azshara's people that Suramar was nothing more than a sunken ruin (Which, it obviously wasn't, but still).

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    It is far more effective and far more immersive to treat the past as history and show it as such via unreliable narrators. It allows for exploration and surprise in the narrative when evidence can emerge that is counter to the known narrative that is simply not possible with an ironclad canon.

    It doesn't help that it feels like the Chronicle is only protected from being retconned by it being pointlessly ambiguous. The most glaring part in Legion was probably with the death of the Pantheon where Norgannon's scheme was explained and then shown as a failure only for Sargeras to somehow have the Pantheon captured in Argus. Yes, the Chronicle does not explicitly say what happened after the Titan essences dispersed when the Keepers failed to contain them but them somehow ending on another planet (or multiple planets if we account for the unexplained sanctum of Eonar in the raid) in a distant part of the universe is simply a cop out. If you are going to invest in canon then that canon should be detailed and ambiguity should be explained through further detail, not through contradiction; a good example would probably be the Forgotten Realms, a MASSIVE fantasy setting with hundreds of writers that still managed to keep a very tight ship with its lore for decades (until the company just decided to nuke it but it got better).

    And the best argument in favour of sticking with an unreliable narrator approach is that WoW's canon feels worthless because we have absolutely no reason to believe that the writers will adher to it when they are on record saying they won't. They say they don't care about the lore if it contradicts the story they want to say and have constantly retconned.
    This. Especially the bolder part. I cant stress how important that is, and stunned how they have no concept of this value.

    As for the rest, if Forgotten Realms could do what they did with their lore, and SWTOR could go to the extent they did to tell an incredible story in an MMO,I am dumbfounded why a company like blizzard who did the RTS and has such incredible quality in art , music and systems as well as programming and IT can fail so badly at excellently portraying g and organising their lore????
    This is what puzzles me, it's not like they are deficient on the creative front.. we love the universe, the races and the scope and depth of the whole thing, yet we fi d this creative element pitfalls very far behind the standard in game that other aspects give when it comes to conveying the story or enhancing the narrative in a way that correctly, and excellently builds on previous material.

    I can u understand changing things for new and better developments and accommodating things for gameplay pr systems reason, but far too often I see either poor effort put in, for something that could be much better or should have been far more involved.

    What is worse is when fans bri g up these things, that the devs omit or forget, they are completely blanked, showing creative is completely out of touch and not engaging its community on the lore section.

    Face itm there is talent amongst the fans too, creative types are drawn to the lore, they are an asset worth engaging with or looking into so these huge aspects are not omitted.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    This. Especially the bolder part. I cant stress how important that is, and stunned how they have no concept of this value.

    As for the rest, if Forgotten Realms could do what they did with their lore, and SWTOR could go to the extent they did to tell an incredible story in an MMO,I am dumbfounded why a company like blizzard who did the RTS and has such incredible quality in art , music and systems as well as programming and IT can fail so badly at excellently portraying g and organising their lore????
    This is what puzzles me, it's not like they are deficient on the creative front.. we love the universe, the races and the scope and depth of the whole thing, yet we fi d this creative element pitfalls very far behind the standard in game that other aspects give when it comes to conveying the story or enhancing the narrative in a way that correctly, and excellently builds on previous material.
    I honestly feel that their team just lacked people with a background in RPGs.

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