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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    I forgot you had to be a professional author to recognize bad writing. Do you really not have an argument beyond the most basic of white knight takes.




    Knaak's really bad at keeping "power levels" toned down. His version of BfA, even if he were forbidden from writing OC characters, would be just as bad as what we have now. A different kind of bad, but still bad.



    This is largely the correct take. I'd argue that things began really declining during Cata, but MoP really did set the stage for the current predicament. In my opinion though, WoD is where the story became completely unsalvageable. Until that point, I tended to write off people who suggested a hypothetical WCIV should pick up after WCIII: TFT. Now I'm fully on board with that. WoW needs to be retconned away and given the RPG treatment.
    Can you recognize a flaw in a complex calculation without being a mathematician? Maybe, but probably not.

    White knight? Obviously you're the last person who should point out bad writing.

  2. #62
    Titan Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    Can you recognize a flaw in a complex calculation without being a mathematician? Maybe, but probably not.
    Basic storytelling is a "complex calculation" now? People regularly interface with complex calculations at comparable frequency to stories? What an embarrassing point.

    White knight? Obviously you're the last person who should point out bad writing.
    Considering the nonsense you tried to trot out above? The term fits. I know it's really easy to pretend anyone who uses certain words is a "bad person who's not qualified to talk about X issue and obviously biased." Try not to do that though, it makes you look like a White Knight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    Even Alliance characters are well-written there, which is shocking. Turalyon, Alleria and Khadgar are still heroes, but all have descent character arcs and internal struggles over the course of two novels.
    I would say Robert Brooks is also good. I really liked "A Thousand Years of War" and "A Good War". The later one is flawed tho, but good overall.
    The fact that he managed to dodge "Blanduinism" while writing about the Second War is a pretty good indication of his abilities. It's one of the few pieces where I don't dread Alliance chapters.

    With regard to Brooks, "A Good War" wasn't terrible. Honestly, the characterization was fairly decent there. If he hadn't had to conform to ridiculous plot points, the entire thing probably would've been great. Unfortunately, those terrible plot points are the basis for the entire story.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwielder View Post
    People often forget that Warcraft at it's core is a very, very silly and one-dimensional story (Arthas being the only exception). You can't expect a writer to turn this in to another ASOIAF or I don't know, The First Law.
    Only Arthas.... oh wait, you mean only the central plot of Warcraft 3 that lasted all the way until WotLK?

    The undead threat is the central element of lore in Vanilla. The subplot of Scarlet Crusade is directly tied into it. Same as situation of Church of Light. Same as entire Forsaken race. Forsaken questgivers exist all over the world and their motives and personalities all stem from Arthas' actions.

    Burning Crusade is mainly about Illidan and his henchmen... but what is Illidan doing in Outland? Oh right, Arthas again. Its the struggle against Arthas (and Lich King) that shaped Illidan into what we know from BC. And what about Sunwell? Again, the whole situation on Isle of Queldanas exists because of what Arthas did there during WC3.

    WoTLK... no explanation needed.

    Coincidentally, its also the period when Warcraft was most succesful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    When an orc eats an orc, two orcs rip out of the orcs stomach, they eat each other and a brand new orc walks through the door, and then his chest explodes and 20 full grown orcs crawl out of his body. They then eat each other and the bodies until there are 3 orcs left. The mystery of the orc reproduction cycle.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    Can't imagine the coffee cup being an accident. Aren't many people/departmens checking the materials or something? How can shit like that slip, there has to be some kind of "quality management". I think they got payed a huge amount of money for product placement and that's it.
    In fact, there’s a job in the cinema/tv business which is called the “script”, whose work is mainly to be in the set where the movie/series is being filming and just check the raccord, which means checking if from take to take there are any mistakes or continuity problems. So, you can imagine that in this kind of production, the guy working as script would have been experienced and paid a good amount of money for it... being that the case, it’s nearly unforgivable to miss that cup of coffee...

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorca View Post
    In fact, there’s a job in the cinema/tv business which is called the “script”, whose work is mainly to be in the set where the movie/series is being filming and just check the raccord, which means checking if from take to take there are any mistakes or continuity problems. So, you can imagine that in this kind of production, the guy working as script would have been experienced and paid a good amount of money for it... being that the case, it’s nearly unforgivable to miss that cup of coffee...
    I had the opportunity to be on one of the sets and holy crap were those people anal about modern stuff lying around like plastic bottles / food wrappers etc on the set. If D&D Start shouting the second one of the actors makes a split second direct eye contact with the camera, and they miss a friggin starbucks cup... come on.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    In the latest episode of Game of Thrones a main character suffered catastrophic losses after seemingly committing a major military blunder that could've been easily avoided. The showrunners David Benioff & D.B. Weiss (D&D) justified the bizarre narrative choice by saying:



    Unfortunately it seems like WoW characters keep "kinda forgetting" things too.

    • Sylvanas kind of forgot about her reason for the War of Thorns
    • Saurfang kind of forgot why killing Malfurion was essential to the plan that he himself had made
    • Anduin kind of forgot to bring gas masks to the Siege of Lordaeron
    • The Zandalari kind of forgot to do routine maintenance on their ships and find the bombs
    • Tyrande kind of forgot that she received a major power-up and could've easily killed Nathanos
    • Night Elf "Dark Rangers" kind of forgot that it was the Horde that killed them
    • Sylvanas kind of forgot to explain her true objective to her inner circle
    • Baine kind of forgot that Mak'gora is the legitimate institute for challenging the Warchief
    • Sylvanas kind of forgot that free will is the cornerstone of Forsaken society
    • The player character kind of forgot that doing the Old Gods' bidding is a terrible idea

    Good thing we have Steve "Dan"user and "Dave" Kosak as our own version of D&D a.k.a. Dumb & Dumber.
    Rofl.

    I kind of agree on everything you say.

    This is what happens when the storytellers decide the plot of the story using a spreadsheet to please stockholders instead of thinking on what is the best for the story.

    What now matters for them are the events they planned on the spreadsheet, and not the logical issues around them. This is why both things are becoming souless stories, they stopped caring about the characters and the story, and just care to use their spreadsheet ideas no matter what, creating schizophrenic characters and lots of plot holes to achieve their goals.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    If the latest GoT writers wrote WoW, we would deal with N'Zoth in 8.2 and Azshara in 8.3
    If D&D wrote wow we'd have Azshara in 8.1 and N'zoth in 8.2 then followed with faction conflict in 8.3.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    BfA is the direct result of years of terrible story choices by Kosak.
    By that logic, i'd rather go for Metzen because he supervised Warcraft lore basically up until Legion.

    Second, it's the current team of writers decision to write the current plot, not Kosaks.
    Not like the storyline of MoP forced their hand to write BfA the way they've written it.

    But personally i find it utterly silly how people always pick a bad guy and blame all bad decisions on them, especially if they're not even the head of the department.
    Let alone the fact that they usually need other people to approve it, making them complicit by approving it.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-05-11 at 10:15 AM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    If D&D wrote wow we'd have Azshara in 8.1 and N'zoth in 8.2 then followed with faction conflict in 8.3.
    Here's your plot for 8.3 and beyond:

    Quote Originally Posted by David Benioff & D.B. Weiss
    So while they were busy fighting Azshara's forces in Nazjatar, the Alliance kind of forgot about the Horde and Sylvanas' forces, but Sylvanas certainly didn't forget about them. So she's just waiting for the Alliance to blindly walk into yet another trap

  10. #70
    Pit Lord Tenebra's Avatar
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    The way they handled the Night King almost reminds me of Sylvanas. The writers said twice in interviews that they didn't think the Night King was evil, and Bran's actor even said that Bran felt sorry for the Night King in their final confrontation, yet in the actual show the Night King is not displayed like an actual sympathetic character, and instead seems to be a generic evil overlord. Just like how Blizzard is convinced that Sylvanas is not evil when in the actual game she has the moral complexity of a Scooby Doo villain.
    Last edited by Tenebra; 2019-05-11 at 10:45 AM.
    Remember, control demands sacrifice. Power never comes without a price. You risk losing those closest to you in order to save them. This is the bargain we have made.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Void Fallen View Post
    The way they handled the Night King almost reminds me of Sylvanas. The writers said twice in interviews that they didn't think the Night King was evil, and Bran's actor even said that Bran felt sorry for the Night King in their final confrontation, yet in the actual show the Night King is not displayed like an actual sympathetic characte, and instead seems to be a generic evil overlord. Just like how Blizzard is convinced that Sylvanas is not evil when in the actual game she has the moral complexity of a Scooby Doo villain.
    The Night King is a miles superior character than current Sylvanas both because of his theme music and because he lacks lines. Since he doesn't speak he can't deliver bad dialogue. He also has no motive or personality meaning that he can't be shipped with any of the writers nor ever act out of character as that would require having a character to speak of. His advantages are endless.

    That and being killed by a little girl with a knife after almost achieving total victory over the morons you oppose is marginally more dignified than being the patsy of another bad guy and getting killed by said morons all the while never even being close to winning because your bullshit deus ex machina are fewer than your enemy's.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-05-11 at 10:47 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  12. #72
    Blizzard kind of forgot writing a good story.

  13. #73
    Pit Lord Tenebra's Avatar
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    Replaying Warcraft III is so sad, back when the characters were actually semi-competent and more nuanced. I shudder at the thought of Golden making a few "adjustements" to the Reforged version.
    Remember, control demands sacrifice. Power never comes without a price. You risk losing those closest to you in order to save them. This is the bargain we have made.

  14. #74
    Bfa should have been more " Warbringer Jaina " than " Warbringer Sylvanas "

    Daughter of the sea song brought more feeling and context , and was better wrote than the whole Sylvanas Storyline and bfa plot.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Night King is a miles superior character than current Sylvanas both because of his theme music and because he lacks lines. Since he doesn't speak he can't deliver bad dialogue. He also has no motive or personality meaning that he can't be shipped with any of the writers nor ever act out of character as that would require having a character to speak of. His advantages are endless.

    That and being killed by a little girl with a knife after almost achieving total victory over the morons you oppose is marginally more dignified than being the patsy of another bad guy and getting killed by said morons all the while never even being close to winning because your bullshit deus ex machina are fewer than your enemy's.
    Night king being mentioned in the same sentence as "good villain" is already blatantly wrong. Because even using the phrase to say what he isn' would imply he had any character at all.
    The night king is one of the most boring villains ever put to television. The entire story surrounding him would make just as much sense if he was a tree, or a zombie off-switch with a scary face drawn on it.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Night king being mentioned in the same sentence as "good villain" is already blatantly wrong. Because even using the phrase to say what he isn' would imply he had any character at all.
    The night king is one of the most boring villains ever put to television. The entire story surrounding him would make just as much sense if he was a tree, or a zombie off-switch with a scary face drawn on it.
    You're entirely right. In light of this, consider what a godawful villain Sylvanas must be to still rank under that.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  17. #77
    I personally think hte problem with Golden is less that she is a horrible writer and the main reason why WoW sucks like so many on this thread seems to imply. But rather that she is not given room to show off her strenghts in writing.

    Goldens achilles heel has always been writing epics, when she is much better at writing stories taking place in epics, a seemingly minor difference that is nonetheless an important distinction. For a good look at what i mean read the passages in Before the storm that pertains people that would not be important NPCs in game, specifically the chapter where the Innkeeper in Goldshire is summoned to SW keep to ask whether he is willing to meet his forsaken brother again, and tell me Golden does not write that passage pretty damn good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    You're entirely right. In light of this, consider what a godawful villain Sylvanas must be to still rank under that.
    Sylvanas has a character, a wildly moronic one who the writers give way too much leeway in interviews, but a character nonetheless. She also has an arc, most peoples problem with her seems to be that they don't like the arc that much.
    Which thinking about it is the same argument i have been using for complainers of BfA this entire expansion, just because you don't like something doesnt mean the substance isnt there.
    Last edited by Sondrelk; 2019-05-11 at 11:44 AM.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    tell me Golden does not write that passage pretty damn good.
    It's not good at all, even by Warcraft standards. Other writers they've hired can do much better making smaller side stories feel organic.

    Christie Golden really doesn't have any identifiable strengths as a writer, there's only "bad" and "less bad." Warcraft's story wasn't peachy before she came along, but her impact on the franchise has been particularly toxic.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    It's not good at all, even by Warcraft standards. Other writers they've hired can do much better making smaller side stories feel organic.

    Christie Golden really doesn't have any identifiable strengths as a writer, there's only "bad" and "less bad." Warcraft's story wasn't peachy before she came along, but her impact on the franchise has been particularly toxic.
    So by yourn own admission you consider her books that ends up placing fairly high on new pubications list, who went through writing school and got hired to a writing staff based on her ability to write novels a bad writer?
    Not everyone is going to be Shakespeare or Tolkien, but you are really not fooling anyone but yourself if you think she got to where she is now solely on blind luck.

    If skill is not based on achievements in writing and official qualifications, then what do you base literary skill on?
    Because to me it certainly seems like you base it solely on whether you like the story.
    Last edited by Sondrelk; 2019-05-11 at 12:07 PM.

  20. #80
    My favorite WoW novel might still be The Last Guardian but maybe that's because I'm a medivh fanboy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    It's not good at all, even by Warcraft standards. Other writers they've hired can do much better making smaller side stories feel organic.

    Christie Golden really doesn't have any identifiable strengths as a writer, there's only "bad" and "less bad." Warcraft's story wasn't peachy before she came along, but her impact on the franchise has been particularly toxic.
    I think she did good with Lord of the Clans and Rise of the Horde at the very least, though those were a long time ago now.

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