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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by pay928 View Post
    A 414 VDH should be able to tank 15+. Not being able to is not on the class. If you mean this week, it's not even fortified.

    You should gear up both since gearing up means completing a 10+ and not playing the rest of the week since there're 2 months and M+ chest and warfront/emissaries will give good enough gear for staring 8.2. If you can only do 1, then right now warriors are looking to still be fine since mitigation is unchanged and nerf is only coming out to ~5-10% damage nerf. Which is better between a war and pally won't be known until final balancing/seasonal affix however.
    Impossible. I know VHD is supposed to kite a lot, but if that is their niche, how are we supposed to stand against tyrannical bosses or unkite-able packs? You could literally fit a prot war and VHD next to each other and have them get smacked in the face. The difference is ridiculous. Unbalanced.

    Evenly ilvl prot war with NO cooldowns or active mitigation is sturdier than a VHD with demon spikes up. There is no question, check it out yourself.

    The few high keys that have been tanked by VHD are tanked by skillfull VHD that know how to kite perfectly, as in ranged sigil procs and ranged 5 stack spirit bomb hits being played to perfectly to only get 1-2 hits in before standing in range safely in order to keep agro.

    VHD needs not buffs like 5% here and there, it needs 50% here and there to even match prot wars.

    edit: What i`d like to see is 8.2 class balance notes to read something similar to: Infernal strike capped at 1 charge/cooldown. Demon spikes buffed by 25% to also include magic damage reduction. Passive armor increased by 40%.

    Spirit bomb to be replacing soul cleave. I know soul cleave is already being buffed, but its still a poor man`s spirit bomb in its buffed state. Might as well just replace it as a talent by now.

    We have no other utility, apart from a poor man`s grasp of the dead... oh and 5% magic damage to the target. A ranged aoe silence really is no utility as far as im concerned in any case. If balance was anything near balanced in this game, my proposed changed above would be baseline and we would`ve gone figuring things out from there.
    Last edited by Soep; 2019-05-12 at 04:24 AM.

  2. #22
    I expect the essences to break M+ in enough ways to possibly change the meta.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Orochimaruu View Post
    i tanked +3 as dps demon hunter 400 item level and its easy had the opulance trinket thought and dh gives alot of haste to the trinket that means more sheields
    A geared dps could probably tank a +3 the issues arise when you are approaching +20 range.

    Mitigation is lacking and the shields at that level take less than one hit to pop.

    VDH need a large CD to fill in those gaps so we arent so heavily reliant on Demon spikes.
    Last edited by Jetzu; 2019-05-13 at 09:15 AM.

  4. #24
    There is no way to know until we know the finalized class changes as well as the new seasonal affix.

    Perhaps they are trying to rotate FOTM tank classes this addon, so BrM, Guardian or protpaladin would be a good bet. With the increase to the bears mitigation as well as the increase in the bear's damage my crystal orb is predicting a bear season, unless the new affix is about magic damage.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Soep View Post
    Impossible. I know VHD is supposed to kite a lot, but if that is their niche, how are we supposed to stand against tyrannical bosses or unkite-able packs? You could literally fit a prot war and VHD next to each other and have them get smacked in the face. The difference is ridiculous. Unbalanced.
    I'm not sure what you're saying is impossible if you mean a 414 VDH tanking a 15. https://raider.io/mythic-plus-charac...on-hunter/tank has 417 ones tanking 20+.

    I never said it was even near the level of other tanks. I don't tank on mine because it's shit and easier to tank everything on my other tanks.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Soep View Post
    Impossible. I know VHD is supposed to kite a lot, but if that is their niche, how are we supposed to stand against tyrannical bosses or unkite-able packs? You could literally fit a prot war and VHD next to each other and have them get smacked in the face. The difference is ridiculous. Unbalanced.

    Evenly ilvl prot war with NO cooldowns or active mitigation is sturdier than a VHD with demon spikes up. There is no question, check it out yourself.

    The few high keys that have been tanked by VHD are tanked by skillfull VHD that know how to kite perfectly, as in ranged sigil procs and ranged 5 stack spirit bomb hits being played to perfectly to only get 1-2 hits in before standing in range safely in order to keep agro.

    VHD needs not buffs like 5% here and there, it needs 50% here and there to even match prot wars.

    edit: What i`d like to see is 8.2 class balance notes to read something similar to: Infernal strike capped at 1 charge/cooldown. Demon spikes buffed by 25% to also include magic damage reduction. Passive armor increased by 40%.

    Spirit bomb to be replacing soul cleave. I know soul cleave is already being buffed, but its still a poor man`s spirit bomb in its buffed state. Might as well just replace it as a talent by now.

    We have no other utility, apart from a poor man`s grasp of the dead... oh and 5% magic damage to the target. A ranged aoe silence really is no utility as far as im concerned in any case. If balance was anything near balanced in this game, my proposed changed above would be baseline and we would`ve gone figuring things out from there.
    You need to understand the dungeons and when big chunks of damage are coming and then they aren't. Changing to a prot pala or prot warrior wont solve your issue, trust me. You must learn when to face tank and for how long you can sustain it to increase your damage output but when you can't sustain it any longer you kite (even I have to kite certain packs as a Prot Warrior).

    You are not supposed to ''kite'' bosses minus some little mechanics (e.g. 3rd boss on KR). As a 414 VDH you are obligated to faceroll through 10's or 11's, I my VDH guildie was tanking 13's in Season 1 even double chesting SotS 12.

    Found this random video on youtube btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_LCj_tK8Kc

    The guy tanks the tree boss on WM for 21 - 17 - 25 stacks on tyranical try to watch and see if there is anything you can pick up that might help you.

  7. #27
    Prot warrior main who mained it since TBC....

    Warriors were freaking hard to kill in Legion too, and did awesome damage + could abuse spellreflect on a bunch of stuff (Medivh for example), but nobody gave a shit, because BDK's were so massively OP.

    The biggest nuance of the class (one that still remains, but is less evident) is that a warrior played badly back then was completely useless, while played well they were very good. Granted in BFA if you're played badly, then you are a bit better off (anyone can use avatar and facesmash thunderclap for good damage) but if you don't know what you're doing, you will still die.

    I think a lot of the perception of warriors as invincible is a result of the meta effetc- because of the damage, tonnes of *really* good players re-rolled warriors, meaning that a spec which requires good play to be decent has a much larger proportion of the best players playing it.

    I honestly think they maybe over-nerfed BDK survivability, and the fact that the Reaping replaced Infested was a big impact on BDK's (no longer needing the grip as much).

    VDH and Guardian still need a buff, but I would be careful with how much they are buffed - the defensive buffs they made to warriors had everyone pre-8.1 saying that warriors were still going to be trash, in part due to the fact that people thought the def buffs weren't enough, and in part because warriors bring (probably?) the least out of every tank in terms of group utility.

    What nobody accounted for was the interaction of bastion of might, avatar, and reaping, meaning that we became able to drop absolutely nuclear AoE. The survival buffs seemed terrible, but somehow warrior is now invincible - there's no reason this won't happen with one of the other tanks this time round, with essences and the new seasonal affix.

    My money is on Paladin being the new go-to tank, either that or back to BDK

  8. #28
    The BOM trait is probably the biggest offender for why warrior is so OP

    Triple 415 azerite with BOM gives +1800 mastery for every Avatar and that Mastery gives both attack power, block chance, crit block chance as well as the free IP that is boosted from all that attack power from the trait. No other tank has a trait anywhere close to as good as this. BDK best trait has a chance to give them and extra bone shield charges rofl..

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Loosecannon View Post
    Prot warrior main who mained it since TBC....

    Warriors were freaking hard to kill in Legion too, and did awesome damage + could abuse spellreflect on a bunch of stuff (Medivh for example), but nobody gave a shit, because BDK's were so massively OP.

    The biggest nuance of the class (one that still remains, but is less evident) is that a warrior played badly back then was completely useless, while played well they were very good. Granted in BFA if you're played badly, then you are a bit better off (anyone can use avatar and facesmash thunderclap for good damage) but if you don't know what you're doing, you will still die.

    I think a lot of the perception of warriors as invincible is a result of the meta effetc- because of the damage, tonnes of *really* good players re-rolled warriors, meaning that a spec which requires good play to be decent has a much larger proportion of the best players playing it.

    I honestly think they maybe over-nerfed BDK survivability, and the fact that the Reaping replaced Infested was a big impact on BDK's (no longer needing the grip as much).

    VDH and Guardian still need a buff, but I would be careful with how much they are buffed - the defensive buffs they made to warriors had everyone pre-8.1 saying that warriors were still going to be trash, in part due to the fact that people thought the def buffs weren't enough, and in part because warriors bring (probably?) the least out of every tank in terms of group utility.

    What nobody accounted for was the interaction of bastion of might, avatar, and reaping, meaning that we became able to drop absolutely nuclear AoE. The survival buffs seemed terrible, but somehow warrior is now invincible - there's no reason this won't happen with one of the other tanks this time round, with essences and the new seasonal affix.

    My money is on Paladin being the new go-to tank, either that or back to BDK
    I think in order to BDK to be tier1 it needs a full rework on all azerite traits for something more meaningful.

  10. #30
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    Blood DK specific traits are trash, you could have unholy traits on the outer ring and barely notice a fucking difference lol.

  11. #31
    Scarab Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    I'm not really following the meta atm, but BDKs will always be a safe bet imo. They have a really good toolkit for M+ tanking.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I'm not really following the meta atm, but BDKs will always be a safe bet imo. They have a really good toolkit for M+ tanking.
    Unless the new season affix is trivialized by grips(and I don't really see how that would be the case, especially with it being a ST affix) BDK is pretty much stuck being meh like they are currently. Both prot specs and brewmaster are all safe bets to be better.

    Also essence CD proc for Blood is vamp blood and basically worthless compared to what other tanks are getting, blood could very well end up behind VDH/Guardian even. This is in fact probably why both prot specs will stay 1 and 2 for M+ since these procs are massive dps CDs for both and it's just defensives for every other spec(with blood getting the worst one).
    Last edited by Tech614; 2019-05-26 at 07:42 AM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Unless the new season affix is trivialized by grips(and I don't really see how that would be the case, especially with it being a ST affix) BDK is pretty much stuck being meh like they are currently. Both prot specs and brewmaster are all safe bets to be better.

    Also essence CD proc for Blood is vamp blood and basically worthless compared to what other tanks are getting, blood could very well end up behind VDH/Guardian even. This is in fact probably why both prot specs will stay 1 and 2 for M+ since these procs are massive dps CDs for both and it's just defensives for every other spec(with blood getting the worst one).
    if the new pvp essence goes live as is (and it wont lol) brewmaster would be the only tank to get a giant dps increase. will be interesting to wathch it get nuked.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    if the new pvp essence goes live as is (and it wont lol) brewmaster would be the only tank to get a giant dps increase. will be interesting to wathch it get nuked.
    Hot Trub will probably be changed to "divided among all enemies" instead of a straight up aoe. I don't think it's that big of a deal as a ST dps increase, especially brewmaster is firmly middle of the pack there already and it probably won't jump them up much.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2019-05-26 at 06:24 PM.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I'm not really following the meta atm, but BDKs will always be a safe bet imo. They have a really good toolkit for M+ tanking.
    You really shouldnt talk if you're clueless about the meta. Cause BDK are currently a poor choice.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Hot Trub will probably be changed to "divided among all enemies" instead of a straight up aoe. I don't think it's that big of a deal as a ST dps increase, especially brewmaster is firmly middle of the pack there already and it probably won't jump them up much.
    agreed. as it is now its kind of insane. 40-50% of your damage from an essence is kinda nuts. saw a brew pulling 30k on ashzara testing the other day using it. might give tclap a run for its money lol

  17. #37
    Druid on ptr feels very good. Im tanking weekly 15s with druid and i easily hit 25k hps on trashpulls with 100% ironfur uptime and with 8.2 coming with even more FR and ironfur buffs + much needed dmg buffs makes them probably second place after warriors. Maybe dmg will be too low though.

    Brewmaster still need the most healing of all tanks by a big margin. Paladins/DHs mitigation seems currently very weak and not suitable for high keys. Didnt play my dk at all in bfa so can't say much about him. So #1 is still warrior, most dmg and very very good mitigation makes them s-tier for m+.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    Druid on ptr feels very good. Im tanking weekly 15s with druid and i easily hit 25k hps on trashpulls with 100% ironfur uptime and with 8.2 coming with even more FR and ironfur buffs + much needed dmg buffs makes them probably second place after warriors. Maybe dmg will be too low though.

    Brewmaster still need the most healing of all tanks by a big margin. Paladins/DHs mitigation seems currently very weak and not suitable for high keys. Didnt play my dk at all in bfa so can't say much about him. So #1 is still warrior, most dmg and very very good mitigation makes them s-tier for m+.
    paladin will be second behind warrior. glad bears are getting buffs, but brew will still be better.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    [...]
    Brewmaster still need the most healing of all tanks by a big margin. Paladins/DHs mitigation seems currently very weak and not suitable for high keys. Didnt play my dk at all in bfa so can't say much about him. So #1 is still warrior, most dmg and very very good mitigation makes them s-tier for m+.
    That is basically correct, BDK are more self sustained. However due to the nature of damage mitigation of BrM they can survive a long time with low HP compared to BDK.

    I recently switched from BDK to BrM and our healer said that even the BrM having lower ilvl and needing more healing it was easier to heal the BrM as the damage is less spiky and more controled, both on a +15 Motherload in the same week.

    The BDK toolkit is really nice for M+ but they lack mobility and survivability outside of cds.

    My bet for S3 would be Warrior or Pala unless that new seasonal affix specifically favors an other tank and how strong the essences will be for the respective classes.

  20. #40
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    If I play 8.2, I'm just gonna pick Sphere of Suppression and tap dance all over M+, screw the other ones. That essence is straight up OP for Blood, how will mobs even be able to touch me?

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