Tank in M+ in 8.2?

[Alvito]

Slightly shorter answer is unless you're doing 20+ keys it doesn't matter anyways.

It is nonsense that going with the best choices available only matters at the highest version of content. People who are bad or worse at the game than the cutting edge progression players need every leg up they can get. Beyond that they are asking about FOTM which is going to be whatever the best players thinks is the best and plays the most. Not understanding that what is good or strong at a 20 isn't the same as say a 5, 10 or anything else is doing yourself a disservice too. Shadow priest and unholy DKs are a good example of this. As mobs live longer they fly back up in quality for higher keys, but both are kinda junk in low keys.

[Tech614]

It is nonsense that going with the best choices available only matters at the highest version of content. People who are bad or worse at the game than the cutting edge progression players need every leg up they can get. Beyond that they are asking about FOTM which is going to be whatever the best players thinks is the best and plays the most. Not understanding that what is good or strong at a 20 isn't the same as say a 5, 10 or anything else is doing yourself a disservice too. Shadow priest and unholy DKs are a good example of this. As mobs live longer they fly back up in quality for higher keys, but both are kinda junk in low keys.

Except for the part where specs like VDH are only bad in M+ once the damage in take reaches a certain thresh hold. In 15s and lower they are really fucking good, have good survival through self healing and are only behind the prot specs in AoE. It's only once the damage becomes so high they get globaled with spikes down that they become a spec that is bad in M+. So yea, might want to re think this silly ass post my dude.

Also lol @ Unholy DK being junk in low keys. This has to be the dumbest thing I read all day, pretty much all of unholy damage is front loaded in burst they only need a few seconds to get things rolling and you're not killing packs in 5 seconds even in low keys so lmao.

[Jargathnan]

Based on what I’ve seen, I think warriors will still be META. The changes to Druid and Demon Hunter don’t look so over the top as to raise them from the bottom to the top. But rather make them reasonably viable again.

The impact to warrior is in its DPS output, which is genuinely out of this world when you can just Avatar and Thunderclap to victory. The spec will still be just as study, and it’ll still put out excellent DPS. Maybe Paladin will pull ahead, though, on the meters for burst. If they do, I could see them being FOTM for a while. Remains to be seen though.

As has been stated throughout the thread though, this doesn’t really change anything for those running 15s and below. At that level all of the tank specs are viable. Runs may be easier with these FOTM specs, but it won’t preclude you from timing a 10.

[arkanon]

I think Veng is in order of a full rework personally, but not just for the gameplay reasons. Am i the only one who thinks it has the most laughable "identity" of any spec? am i missing something here? the only "DH" kinda ability they have is demon spikes, which i really like the theme and idea of, i think its pretty cool.. I think there was an amazing opportunity to do something really unique and special with DH, and havoc i really enjoy and think has a VERY strong theme. So how did they make VDH so godamn sloppy?

Personally, i would have loved to see them double down on the spikes theme - an inner demon fighting do come out and the player struggling to keep it in. Instead of the silly flame sigil crap, have spikes burst out of you in a 360degree arc and smash ppl, causing them to bleed instead of burn. You know, that kind of thing.

Pretty off topic and just ranting, but i personally dont like the theme of the spec, but i do like the class. The end.

[Moonsorrow]

Based on what I’ve seen, I think warriors will still be META. The changes to Druid and Demon Hunter don’t look so over the top as to raise them from the bottom to the top. But rather make them reasonably viable again.

The impact to warrior is in its DPS output, which is genuinely out of this world when you can just Avatar and Thunderclap to victory. The spec will still be just as study, and it’ll still put out excellent DPS. Maybe Paladin will pull ahead, though, on the meters for burst. If they do, I could see them being FOTM for a while. Remains to be seen though.

The main problem with warrior imbalance is still spell reflect, the amount of damage / mitigation this can do is insane if played right in high keys. Spell reflect definitely needs a cap, otherwise warrior will remain dominant in high M+ with competent players.

[AgilityTank]

Am i the only one who thinks it has the most laughable "identity" of any spec? am i missing something here? the only "DH" kinda ability they have is demon spikes, which i really like the theme and idea of, i think its pretty cool..

sigils?

[arkanon]

sigils?

You lot really need to read a post if you are going to reply. It is even more important if you are going to try and sound smug.

[AgilityTank]

You lot really need to read a post if you are going to reply. It is even more important if you are going to try and sound smug.

Do I?
Infracted

[ID811717]

The main problem with warrior imbalance is still spell reflect, the amount of damage / mitigation this can do is insane if played right in high keys. Spell reflect definitely needs a cap, otherwise warrior will remain dominant in high M+ with competent players.

Everyone keeps bringing up spell reflect (I'm not aiming my response at Moonsorrow directly, it's just a 99th time I hear about spell reflect within several weeks). But is it really that big? Pick a random public log with high keys and dig through it. You can look at Enemies/Damage Taken/Taken from Source. Just sum most of the damage that was self-inflicted by mobs (it was spell reflected).

Underrot+24: under 3.2M spell reflect damage vs. 49.69M tank damage and 22.31M healer damage (tank took 32.8M overall damage)
KR+23: under 2.2M spell reflect damage vs. 50.85M tank damage and 19.67M healer damage (tank took 49.18M overall damage)
WM+24: under 4M spell reflect damage vs. 60.84M tank damage and 18.29M healer damage (tank took 49.49M overall damage)
TD+24: under 0.5M spell reflect damage vs. 37.39M tank damage and 15.07M healer damage (tank took 22.55M overall damage)
Temple+24: under 3.4M spell reflect damage vs. 36.02M tank damage and 13.32M healer damage (tank took 40.12M overall damage)

Across these runs, spell reflect contributes at most 1.7k DPS overall.
You can argue that it consumes up to 10% of overall damage on tank, but in many cases it's a damage that tank would otherwise not take (Blood Bolts in UR, Cyclone Strikes in Temple, Lava Bursts in Temple, etc).

Spell Reflect certainly feels nice, and there are cases when it's really strong. But I think the general sentiment of "spell reflect is too good to give up" is just a product of an echo chamber. It will not keep warrior tanks dominant in spite of other things. It's just one of many small check boxes you can tick when weighting up cons and pros of different tanks.

[Moonsorrow]

You may be right that spell reflect is not dominant over the entire dungeon but especially in boss fights it is powerful as you mitigate the damage and give it back to the boss. Elder Lexa in the Underrot is a very good example as a missed interrupt can end with a dead tank and the logs show that she took 933k which is about 9.3% of the damage taken. This is definitly relevant damage and if you add it to the tanks damage he is the #1 DD. I assume that this trend gets worse on high tyrannical keys as the length of the fight and the damage of the increases which means you can use spell reflect more often and do more damage with it.

However I agree with you that spell reflect is a minor point that warriors can use on certain bosses as the other logs did not show such relevant damage.

Overall I think the dominance of warrior tanks was mainly based on the insane damage during reaping and synergie with the rest of the meta.

If the new affix will not significantly reduce the amount of big pulls in M+ I think Warrior will stay dominant especially with the Vision of Perfection Essence that grants them even more Avatar uptime.

However I don't hope that Blizz will go the way of DK and nerf it into oblivion, but instead buff the other tanks to a comparable level.

[Zephire]

Short answer is stop trying to predict the future when the patch is no where close to being finalized.

Slightly shorter answer is unless you're doing 20+ keys it doesn't matter anyways.

It's just speculations. Fun mind exersise. Can spark interesting discussions.

OT:
I'm a paladin and I tank whatever I want. I don't care about buffs/nerfs, I'll manage either way. I just wanna push my paladin to the limits.

[Spazlord]

It’s awesome that warriors are awesome in dungeons in BFA. Been on the bottom for years. ^.^

[Christhammer]

Every single tank is viable up to +20 with the right traits/essence. After +20 you might wanna focus on the "best" ones.

DH and Druid is much stronger this patch so expect to see more of them now. Personally i'm still going DK (my main in S1/S2), with Guardian as alt. Mainly because i enjoy them the most and i never do above more than +15 anyway.

[AdmiralGlitter]

Warrior still seems to stand out head and shoulders above others with proper cooldown rotations. I would be surprised to see them removed from the top spot

[Rocksteadee]

From the top timed runs it looks like BM monk is doing pretty well now too. I assume some of the essences really gave them a boost.

[Moonsorrow]

BrM never did bad in M+ but they lacked the utility or damage that made DK first and Warrior afterwards, god-tier tanks in M+

[Mardux]

BrM never did bad in M+ but they lacked the utility or damage that made DK first and Warrior afterwards, god-tier tanks in M+

PWarrior isn't S-tier because of utility. Lol. They are S-tier because blizzard thought they should be able to out dps most DD specs on trash pulls.

[Jester Joe]

PWarrior isn't S-tier because of utility. Lol. They are S-tier because blizzard thought they should be able to out dps most DD specs on trash pulls.

They did say utility or damage, which utility does apply to DK.

[Vynx]

It’s awesome that warriors are awesome in dungeons in BFA. Been on the bottom for years. ^.^

Kinda agree on that. Legion was dominated by Guardian/BDK.

[Moonsorrow]

They did say utility or damage, which utility does apply to DK.

That's what I said, damage or utility, thank you. Of course one of the main point for warriors was the massive damage during reaping. But the way they take damage works pretty good with a resto druid as well as the amount of shortterm cds they have.
Which was by the way the main reason to nerf bonestorm prior to season 2 as an unlimited bonestorm would have been really insane...

Guardians might have dominated in Legion raiding but never M+. Neither damage nor survivability were close to BDK or VDH, tbh they were shit-tier tanks in M+.