Tipping Pizza Delivery Drivers (and waiters in general)

[Doctor Amadeus]

This is the main argument I see from people who are pro tipping and honestly it's awful. Why the fuck should you hold someone emotionally hostage just because the restaurant wont pay it's employees properly.

Because you aren't a robot, that person getting a shit pay has about as much power as you do, you decided to buy whatever product, if you have a problem with that, then take it up with the government or business that allows for it.

Making someone feel bad over this as though it's their fault is fucked up.

Nobody is made to do anything plenty of people posted already they don't give a shit, well then ok don't. But don't pretend you are a victim

It's not the customers responsibility to pick up the slack on underpaid wages and should not be held accountable like that regardless of how much the employee may depend upon it.

Right it's not your responsibility either as a customer or a human being, I guess, but pretending you don't see a problem doesn't make it go away

I'm so glad my country has national living wage laws because the whole tipping culture in NA is fucked.

Well I wouldn't want to live anywhere that a communities priorities are so fucking far out of wack they no longer give a shit about others, yet want everyone to drop whatever they are doing to cater to them.

I've only ever tipped once or twice in my entire life in my country and that was as a gift because somebody did an amazing job for me (tattoo), not because they performed the job that was expected of them in the first place with a forced "have a nice day sir".

So you basically got something more than you expected, so you felt that the tattoo artist was worthy but fuck everyone else?

Well Ok

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They will never understand, they think they are helping the situation and are blinding by that thought, and his argument is largely nonsensical.

As I stated earlier, I have zero issue giving somebody a tip if they did something special or extra to earn that tip, but I'm not going to tip you for just doing your job, that's why you get a paycheck.

No, I am addressing the issue on both fronts, I pay people for services where a tip is expected, AND, AND I don't vote for, support or give backing to any dickheads such as business's or politicians who support these fucked up systems.

[matheney2k]

No, I am addressing the issue on both fronts, I pay people for services where a tip is expected, AND, AND I don't vote for, support or give backing to any dickheads such as business's or politicians who support these fucked up systems.

See the fact that you think that there are ''2 fronts'' is a testament to how fk'd up our line of thinking has become where we feel responsibility to pick up the slack for these companies and make sure employees are being paid fairly at their place of employment. Why is that okay?

You want to change the law to help support the employees on this matter? More power to ya man go fight you have my full support! But don't throw shade at me because I refuse to be manipulated by a corrupt system where I am expected to pay extra for delivery (that doesn't even go to the driver) and then pay extra again?

I mostly don't order delivery to avoid the situation altogether though if I'm being honest.

[Riversong]

It's not a custom in England as far as I'm aware here in Norway as you already pay taxes on what you're purchasing, so it's definitely an american thing so the restaurant can screw over it's employee and customer base abit more.

[Doctor Amadeus]

See the fact that you think that there are ''2 fronts'' is a testament to how fk'd up our line of thinking has become where we feel responsibility to pick up the slack for these companies and make sure employees are being paid fairly at their place of employment. Why is that okay?

You want to change the law to help support the employees on this matter? More power to ya man go fight you have my full support! But don't throw shade at me because I refuse to be manipulated by a corrupt system where I am expected to pay extra for delivery (that doesn't even go to the driver) and then pay extra again?

I mostly don't order delivery to avoid the situation altogether though if I'm being honest.

You’re not doing anything but being a cheap ass which I’m with you 100%. But man don’t do that man don’t make the most vulnerable easiest to abuse the ones responsible for it.

Speak the fuck up with these people not for them. You said you used to own a bar awesome dude. But you can fight battles on more than one front.

I’m not shaming or shading anyone but even by your own admission you should fight on more than one front not because it’s your responsibility it’s because you can take the hits.

Some dude that’s just barely hanging on who doesn’t spit in food. Who would likely report the asshole who did that. Yeah fight for that guy cause you can.

[matheney2k]

Some dude that’s just barely hanging on who doesn’t spit in food. Who would likely report the asshole who did that. Yeah fight for that guy cause you can.

And how do you suggest we fight for that guy? What do you recommend happens?

[bungeebungee]

@Lemonpartyfan To sum up your points, you don't have any actual evidence or studies and I'm just supposed to accept your account of what you "know". Right, got it. I think that when considering a problem that goes across the country and encompasses a range of settings, I'll opt for a wider statistical view. Enjoy your day.

[Doctor Amadeus]

And how do you suggest we fight for that guy? What do you recommend happens?

You're already doing it, unless I misread what you said about your past. You paid people a decent fucking wage, YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO, but you did it, because obviously you are decent fucking human being. That's admirable, especially for being a penny pincer.

But you are smart, you have an education, you know where things come from, and you also know where things land, even where they aren't supposed to.

In the lap of some poor son of a bitch, who's working a job getting a shitty job because they literally have NO POWER or not as much ability to say, we should be taking care of the people that take care of us.

In my view, when I got to a restaurant, or a club and I have NOTHING to think about, nothing to worry about because everything went smoothly. I tip, nobody has to jump through flaming hoops, or treat me like I am special.

I just need to be able to do what I want to do, and have a good time, and not have to worry about the shit everyone servicing me does. I appreciate them. That's why I tip.

[dirtyjokes]

I'm usually a generous tipper because I can afford it and it can make a huge difference for someone going to college while working a delivery job. I agree though that tipping is a malicious practice to avoid paying real wages but you need laws for that, not screwing a poor college kid out of their dinner

[Vargur]

No, tips shouldn't exist for just serving you.
Tipping = corruption, it's like bribing your doctor to do his job. Which he's being paid for anyway.
If a waiter, server, driver, whatever else aren't happy with their wages, it's THEIR responsibility to ask for more from their employer OR find another job.

Originally tipping appeared so you could get a table or a better seat at a busy and fancy restaurant, but then I suppose everyone else wanted in on the scam.

[Vegas82]

See the fact that you think that there are ''2 fronts'' is a testament to how fk'd up our line of thinking has become where we feel responsibility to pick up the slack for these companies and make sure employees are being paid fairly at their place of employment. Why is that okay?

You want to change the law to help support the employees on this matter? More power to ya man go fight you have my full support! But don't throw shade at me because I refuse to be manipulated by a corrupt system where I am expected to pay extra for delivery (that doesn't even go to the driver) and then pay extra again?

I mostly don't order delivery to avoid the situation altogether though if I'm being honest.

The funny part is if they paid these people appropriately the cost would simply be tacked on to your bill in some fashion. Likely as a higher increase than the tip alone.

[Doctor Amadeus]

@Lemonpartyfan To sum up your points, you don't have any actual evidence or studies and I'm just supposed to accept your account of what you "know". Right, got it. I think that when considering a problem that goes across the country and encompasses a range of settings, I'll opt for a wider statistical view. Enjoy your day.

Evidence what are you Katie Couric, you fact check all these sources, and sources for your sources. I am not even reading all of your post, but the parts I have skimmed by do seem caulked full of bullshit. No Offense taken again I skimmed them.

But tipping and money aren't incentives or the best incentives. HAHAHA ok based on what, who's value system are we talking about going in to whatever study.


See because the fact you cite a source, and use a study, that isn't the beginning and end. Unless it's your individual study, or the information therein happens to be widely popular and common knowledge.

And I guarantee it isn't if you ask any adult human being if MONEY (Tips) or not are incentive most will probably look at you as if you are from Mars.


Now yes of course some might not say money is an incentive, but I can assure you with NO STUDY of my own the people saying that are widely coming from a different perspective than most of those not saying that.


Although I will agree that the overall truth is that whenever people have what they need, and feel more secure, MONEY DOES become less of a priority, but when you don't make enough to even eat, and what you make tips included are the difference between life or death, Then yeah, I am going to have to say this is one of those issues I am going to completely disagree.

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No, tips shouldn't exist for just serving you.
Tipping = corruption, it's like bribing your doctor to do his job. Which he's being paid for anyway.
If a waiter, server, driver, whatever else aren't happy with their wages, it's THEIR responsibility to ask for more from their employer OR find another job.

Originally tipping appeared so you could get a table or a better seat at a busy and fancy restaurant, but then I suppose everyone else wanted in on the scam.

Which is exactly what happens with health insurance. And by the way if Doctors were did what most Executives and CEO's in the corporate world did, based on the level of skill set, the entire world would have a lot more to bitch about than the price of Avocados.

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The funny part is if they paid these people appropriately the cost would simply be tacked on to your bill in some fashion. Likely as a higher increase than the tip alone.

Yeah, but that is also why you have to have knowledge about the places you go, and business's you frequent. For example I go to Costco, when I need 100lbs or Ketchup or whatever the fuck

But honestly aside from the great savings I get when I use my membership, Costco is one of the great business's that I know pays their employees a decent wage.


However Jimmy Johns on the Other hand Love their Subs, but I refuse to buy from them based on their disgusting wage practices, and more importantly their tactics for cutting corners and pushing generally high school age kids into very dangerous driving conditions all in order to live up to this crazy fast Delivery concept (Which they are by the way)

I mean I know we are talking about tipping, but it's more than just about tipping, but like tipping knowing what goes with the people that serve your community is important.

[dippinsawse]

It's not a custom in England as far as I'm aware here in Norway as you already pay taxes on what you're purchasing, so it's definitely an american thing so the restaurant can screw over it's employee and customer base abit more.

The employees are definitely not being screwed over. Waitresses make a ton of money in america. If you are pretty and nice and attentive you make more money as a waitress than everyone else there except the owners and sometimes managers. The reason we allow them to be paid below minimum wage is because they make so much money, not because they are being exploited. It may not be a perfect system and sometimes wait staff get screwed over but overall there is a good reason for this.

The funny thing is that it began as a custom in britain, not america. The british aristocracy used to essentially be expected to pay serving staff extra because they were so rich. Americans started doing it as kind of a joke to be like, "Oh look how posh and aristocratic I am, I tip the servants." Then it spread because people didn't want to seem low class by not tipping. Basically tipping in america was more about personal appearances rather than serving staff being taken advantage of or something. And in fact many thought it was a negative thing because it made the serving staff seem to be inferior which is antithetical to the idea of the US being about freedom and equality while the rest of the world was still heavily classist.

[Muzjhath]

One of the first lines of the article is

Studies have shown that tipping is not an effective incentive for performance in servers

yet it then says

It also creates an environment in which people of color, young people, old people, women, and foreigners tend to get worse service than white males.

How are tips NOT an effective incentive, if they also give better tippers better service? That makes no sense. The reason behind "white males" line is because young white men generally tip better, but if tipping isn't a performance incentive, then why would white men be getting a larger share of the better attention? That is a contradictory idea.

The article addresses it, by saying exactly what I said, in a roundabout way, further down the article. If you are being paid improperly, take it up with your boss. If they won't do anything about it, report them. Just because they are breaking the law by NOT making up the difference after tips, they are doing something illegal. The argument made by the article in this regard isn't a good one.

Beyond that, the national average for wait staff is well above the federal minimum wage, and arguably I don't think it should be. Fast food workers don't get tips but they still deal with customers, in addition to cleaning up shit and barf in the bathrooms.

Even further beyond THAT, as someone who has worked multiple job that receive tips in my life, many employers don't even require you to report tips, so that average is lower than it should be. And if there were some great conspiracy by fast food management, looking at their books would be easy to see.

The section of the article you pasted in response to me is essentially just a "nuh uhn!" to that committee? Okay? If people are violating that law, report them. It gives an 84% rate, but what percent of those affected are reporting it? Close to zero? Okay?

I live in a city with a low cost of living. I know multiple servers that make 25$ an hour at their restaurant job, I'm sorry, anyone who says they only made 2.13 on their check isn't being honest, or is doing something wrong. They would have had to sign a contract to give the company all tips, and sign away their "right" to a minimum wage, which still wouldn't be legal. I worked in a restaurant, as well as had a job delivering pizzas, and my experience does not reflect the "2.13 only" bullshit either. On some nights I would work 6 hours and leave the store with 150 in tips. That would be 150 Friday, 150 Saturday, 150 Sunday, in addition to a gas stipend, and the minimum wage, in addition to free food. Most of the people I talk to about this now don't want tips to go away, they would make less money, they think. This includes someone who has worked at a "tipless" establishment.

You're missing the main point the article is making. You see "servers act better towards particular group in hopes of tips" and think that equals "better service means better tips".
When it's more that servers profile, and act after that. If they see a group of obviously buisness people out, they'll get more attention than the young twenty something couple out on a date. The servers won't act good as a default and hope from a small bit extra in every place. Instead they'll just go after their industries whales hoping for a big catch. (All the while assuming everyone will tip them).

The point is that how set up is tipping doesn't insentivice good service. It insentivies sucking up targeted groups of costumers who are assumed to tip more for various reasons (false or true reasons does not matter). Which is the opposite of the point behind that tipping is a mark of good service. It's just that good tips just shows you were lucky with who showed up to your tables that one evening.
Instead of as in Sweden, where tipping is not a thing expected but a bonus for a good experience. Do servers still fish for tips from companies that are likely to tip more? (A larger group of people out are for example practically always more likely to tip well in Sweden than a smaller group). Yeah, absolutely they to some degree do. But they don't give worse service to anyone to ensure good service to the first group.

The point what you quoted was that the behaviour isn't tips affecting service. It's service affecting projected tips.

[tibblaye]

tipping is the biggest bullshit ever ..... yes i want to pay an extra 10-20% so someone has a liveable income? ... i mean what kinda business needs to actually pay their staff a proper wadge when people will give 10-20% extra for no reason

[exochaft]

I generally tip 25-30%, regardless of the intended rate. I've gone lower when service was absolutely terrible, as tips are usually associated with service-related industries.

While I don't necessarily like tipping as a requirement in a vacuum, it's partially a hold-over and partially because service jobs that "require" tips are generally super easy that anyone could technically do it. Doing something and doing something well are two completely separate things, however. In general, a job that anyone/everyone can do will and should have a low wage. The inherent problem with static/mandated wages is that there's generally no way to reward people who do better, and tipping is one way to alleviate that. The level/quality of the service that is expected from the job will shoot the tips much higher... it's the difference between the service you expect from a McDonald's and a 5-star restaurant. I even know a waitress who gets on average $1000 in tips/week working just the weekends, while her coworkers make less due to offering a lower standard of service.

The problem is if you remove tipping outright and change nothing else, you lower the potential income of a service industry employee if they do well. This is a nice way of saying you remove the incentive to go above and beyond the status quo of your environment. Also, this is why mandated minimum wages are bad (among other things), as your employee base will gravitate towards the bare minimum requirements. This concept was actually attempted in Massachusetts when the first colonists came over, where everything was to be shared and distributed equally regardless of individual efforts... and it lead to massive drops in productivity due to people wanting compensation equal to their efforts that nearly wiped out the colony. When it changed things up and moved towards people owning what they produced and receiving proper compensation for their individual efforts, the colony thrived. This point is this: while I think the tipping system is kind of silly by itself, the function it's supposed to serve is very important. If you want to get rid of tipping in a service industry, I'd believe the proper replacement would by dynamic wages based upon the efforts of the individuals, not the one-size-fits-all wage that removes any impetus to prove great service.

[Yamuri]

I always tip 15%. Restaurants don't always pay minimum wage. I want the people who work in restaurants to have a livable wage. It should feel like a moral obligation. That being said, the mentality of restaurant owners and managers is terrible and it should be illegal to pay under minimum wage. Tipping is ridiculous and it shouldn't be necessary.

[Gestopft]

The employees are definitely not being screwed over. Waitresses make a ton of money in america. If you are pretty and nice and attentive you make more money as a waitress than everyone else there except the owners and sometimes managers. The reason we allow them to be paid below minimum wage is because they make so much money, not because they are being exploited. It may not be a perfect system and sometimes wait staff get screwed over but overall there is a good reason for this.

Mileage varies among servers, but it is definitely true that many if not a majority would protest switching to a straight hourly wage. I made a bit over $25 an hour (total compensation) last night, and it was a very sub-par night. Does anyone think servers in casual dining would get more than $25/hour if we abandoned tipping and just paid an hourly wage? I don't think it's likely. Plenty of servers would see a steep drop in income, especially since the hours available to you as a server aren't 'full time' for most of a restaurant's waitstaff.

[bungeebungee]

Evidence what are you Katie Couric, you fact check all these sources, and sources for your sources.

Let me turn that around, did you? Feel free to hit Google and prove me wrong, I'm doing my research from behind the Great Firewall and I'm stuck using Bing. It is possible that this article and its statistics are an anomaly and that Google would return five times as many results with contrary evidence -- but I can't address that unless somebody actually pulls it together enough to show me some contrary sources. That's part of debate and an exchange of ideas, not the Trump model of repeating opinions louder and more often as seems to be the current trend.

A broken clock is right twice a day. It doesn't mean that the clock works. Look back through the thread and notice that among those defending tipping we have one group talking about how servers are barely making it and need the tips while right along side them are posts talking about how servers are raking it in and don't want to give up a lucrative model. In fact, statistics are like that and there are some who fall into each group, but without studies and information we have no real idea how this applies across the spectrum.

As it stands, a case could be made from this thread to say screw it, tipping has gone overboard (especially now that it is on top of added fees) and we should go back to tipping for good service ... because based on the anecdotal evidence here servers and delivery people are raking it in. I'm rather certain that having pointed that out, there will be a renewed chorus telling me that all servers are starving single mothers though.

And I guarantee it isn't if you ask any adult human being if MONEY (Tips) or not are incentive most will probably look at you as if you are from Mars.

I'll refer you to @Muzjhath and his post. Like that broken clock being right twice a day, that some people are able to effectively bribe staff doesn't mean tipping as an incentive creates better service over all. Far from it, if you don't fit the profile of a high tipper you are apt (remember, statistical behavior does not mean there aren't exceptions) to get lesser quality service. If I recall, you aren't a young white guy, so in places where you aren't known you've probably been bitten by this a few times yourself.

If you are pretty and nice and attentive you make more money as a waitress than everyone else there except the owners and sometimes managers.

Exhibit A, ladies and gentlemen. Leading back to one of the article's points:

There’s this myth, especially if you live in a place like New York or Washington D.C., that what tipped workers make is largely even, that everyone makes what white guys working at fancy steakhouses make.

But even in places like New York and D.C., seventy percent of tipped workers are actually women, largely working at casual restaurants, like Applebees, IHOP , and Olive Garden, earning a median wage of $9 an hour when you include tips. These people suffer three times the poverty rate of the rest of the U.S. workforce, use food stamps at double the rate, and, the worst part, suffer from the absolute worst sexual harassment of any industry in the United States. When you’re a woman living on tips—even if you’re making a lot of money on tips, which most women aren’t—you’re subject to the whims of the customer, and really encouraged by management to objectify yourself or subject yourself to objectification to make money in tips.

[Heran]

I've never expected a tip for doing my job and I don't tip unless someone goes far beyond what is required of them in their job.

[Armakus]

You must be a millennial....selfishness is the trait millennials will forever be known for in history

Christ, are you biased. I assume people that don't tip are older - my waiter/waitress friends say the older they are, the less likely they are to tip.