About Caverns of Time and Kul Tirans...

[Nork]

So I went to Caverns of Time with my Kul Tiran and I couldn't believe it when I saw that I was disguised as a dwarf!!! What the hell Blizzard? Weren't there any kul Tirans during the third war? And by the way, didn't you guys say that, their words not mine, "Kul Tirans are not biologically different from other humans"?

Could anyone explain me this please?

[cparle87]

So I went to Caverns of Time with my Kul Tiran and I couldn't believe it when I saw that I was disguised as a dwarf!!! What the hell Blizzard? Weren't there any kul Tirans during the third war? And by the way, didn't you guys say that, their words not mine, "Kul Tirans are not biologically different from other humans"?

Could anyone explain me this please?

During the Third War? No. Like the Gilneans and Queldorei they left the Alliance after the Second War and sequestered themselves away. That's what ended up leading Daelin Proudmoore to Kalimdor. He hadn't heard from Jaina in too long, so he went to Lordaeron, found it destroyed, found survivors who told him where she'd gone, and he followed her.

[Venziir]

So I went to Caverns of Time with my Kul Tiran and I couldn't believe it when I saw that I was disguised as a dwarf!!! What the hell Blizzard? Weren't there any kul Tirans during the third war? And by the way, didn't you guys say that, their words not mine, "Kul Tirans are not biologically different from other humans"?

Could anyone explain me this please?

There might have been a few around, including Jaina, but in general the Third War was mostly Lordaeron

[Nork]

Kul Tirans were not said to be 'not biologically different than humans.' In fact, it was explained that they ARE different - They grew up in a harsher landscape which required their bodies to evolve bulkier. As a sea-faring nation mainly, they also evolved more sea-aligned traits in regards to their muscle structure.

That said, I don't see why Kul Tirans needed to be disguised. They should have still been allied with the Alliance until Jaina and her father had their disagreement, after the end of the Third War. There's no reason Kul Tiran soldiers wouldn't be present in old battles from that time.

But with that said: Which Caverns of Time instance did you go to?

Mate, read this interview: https : //blizzardwatch. com/2018/04/05/ wow-developer-qa-travis-day-jimmy-lo /

They said they are not a different kind of human, they are humans as well, so it makes no sense to me when they disguised me as a dwarf when I'm just a normal human in terms of lore.

I went to BC caverns of time and Stratholme.

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During the Third War? No. Like the Gilneans and Queldorei they left the Alliance after the Second War and sequestered themselves away. That's what ended up leading Daelin Proudmoore to Kalimdor. He hadn't heard from Jaina in too long, so he went to Lordaeron, found it destroyed, found survivors who told him where she'd gone, and he followed her.

The thing is, they said they're humans as well, they've just made them that way to difference them from "normal" humans.

[cparle87]

Mate, read this interview: https : //blizzardwatch. com/2018/04/05/ wow-developer-qa-travis-day-jimmy-lo /

They said they are not a different kind of human, they are humans as well, so it makes no sense to me when they disguised me as a dwarf when I'm just a normal human in terms of lore.

I went to BC caverns of time and Stratholme.

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The thing is, they said they're humans as well, they've just made them that way to difference them from "normal" humans.

You wear the disguise so you look like people who would've been around at the time the events took place. Kul Tirans had already left the Alliance and isolated themselves from Lordaeron at the time the Culling took place, so it would not make sense for them to be present. So you were turned into something else.

It has nothing to do with whatever kind of humans they or anything that you're trying to make it. They weren't present when those events took place, end of story, you get transformed into something that was.

[Nork]

You wear the disguise so you look like people who would've been around at the time the events took place. Kul Tirans had already left the Alliance and isolated themselves from Lordaeron at the time the Culling took place, so it would not make sense for them to be present. So you were turned into something else.

It has nothing to do with whatever kind of humans they or anything that you're trying to make it. They weren't present when those events took place, end of story, you get transformed into something that was.

I disagree. If blizzard said Kul Tirans are normal humans in terms of lore, then I shouldn't be disguised into anything else because I'm just a normal human. Weren't there any humans around? I'm sure they were, so it makes no sense.

[Khaza-R]

Mate, read this interview: https : //blizzardwatch. com/2018/04/05/ wow-developer-qa-travis-day-jimmy-lo /

They said they are not a different kind of human, they are humans as well, so it makes no sense to me when they disguised me as a dwarf when I'm just a normal human in terms of lore.

I went to BC caverns of time and Stratholme.

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The thing is, they said they're humans as well, they've just made them that way to difference them from "normal" humans.

I believe his point was that Kul Tirans are still humans and not a separate race (ie Drust/Vyrkul hybrids as people previously thought). I don't think he was saying that its possible for other humans to look like Kul Tirans though. Their island giantism seems unique to their heritage.

The illusion is unnecessary but then so its the Blood Elf illusion simply not just turning their eyes blue.

[Nork]

Unless I'm missing something, you're taking the quote COMPLETELY out of context, and it says nothing like what you claim it does.

Here's what I THINK you're referencing, as I don't see anything else in the interview you linked even mentioning Kul Tirans:

Chaud: Are Thin Humans going to be an Allied race, are they NPCs, what’s the weird, thin Human model?

Travis: Um…
[Travis and Jimmy both start laughing]

Travis: Hold on.. Void-y Holy Priest. Okay! I have that, I’ll remember now.

[Coordinator]: If that’s not service, I don’t know what is!
[Laughs]

Travis: So, Thin Man and Fat Man are what we call them internally. And no, they’re not intended to be a different race, [they’re] just variants on Kul Tirans. So, generally, when we’re spawning up Kul Tiras on the design side, we looked at using them as kind of our… maybe it’s a little bit like, ‘The big guy’s the bouncer!’ Or, ‘The big guy’s the ruffian who’s got a little guy up by the neck! And then the little guy’s more the scoundrel and they’re always holding daggers or leanin’ up against something,’ and, I don’t know, it just gives us a little more flavor and texture to the world.

They weren't even comparing Kul Tirans to normal Humans. They were comparing Kul Tirans, the fatter model they had already revealed as the race, to Kul Tirans, the skinny model that had been data mined and speculated to be a potential second skin for Kul Tirans. That skinny model ended up as an NPC model, but not as a playable Kul Tiran model.

So again, I ask: Where did they say they were just like normal humans?

I think you're not reading things properly. Maybe this link is better for you, it says it in a very simple way you'll probably understand:
https: //wow.gamepedia.com /Kul_Tiran_(playable)

"Non-playable Kul Tiran human models include thin, normal and fat body types. The playable Kul Tiran use the fat body type. They are not intended to be a separate race, they are simply variants on Kul Tirans made because Blizzard wanted bigger and smaller models to fit the various NPC roles and add more flavor to the world. They are not biologically different from other humans."

Do you get it now?

[Justpassing]

Every race who's not "supposed" to be in that timeline is transformed in those instances.

[StationaryHawk]

The game probably just takes any race that isn't human, dwarf, or gnome, and turns it into one of the three at random. It's really not a big deal.

[Nork]

I believe his point was that Kul Tirans are still humans and not a separate race (ie Drust/Vyrkul hybrids as people previously thought). I don't think he was saying that its possible for other humans to look like Kul Tirans though. Their island giantism seems unique to their heritage.

The illusion is unnecessary but then so its the Blood Elf illusion simply not just turning their eyes blue.

THIS is what I'm talking about.

[Nork]

If you could check your own sources, you'd have a better understanding of your own words.

Here's where that comes from:

It comes from this line:



You'll notice, nowhere does it say "They are not biologically different from other humans." In neither of the sources on that wowpedia page does it comfirm that they are not different than normal humans.

In other words: That line is a lie. Wowpedia is a fansite - It is not perfect. Check your sources.

So you're saying that a Kul Tiran is a different race, right? If they're not humans, what are they? Explain it to me please. Maybe you know more than Wowpedia or even the developers.

[Rhaide]

Still human? Yes. Racially distinct? Still yes. Different racial traits = different enough to segregate from humans during major conflicts that didn't involve Kul Tiran humans.

[Garymorilix]

They are Kul Tiran Humans.

The same way a Chimpanzee and an Orangutan are both Monkeys, and share a common ancestry with Humans.

They can share ancestry, and still be different. See: Nightborne vs. Night Elf, Blood Elf vs. Void Elf, Blood Elf vs. Night Elf, Gilnean vs. Stormwind Human, the list goes on...

The term "kul tiran" is not a racial term, it's a national term. Your comparison is flawed. They are humans.
The more accurate comaprison would be a brittish vs a scottish. The only thing different in them is their nation, not their biology. Geez.

[Nork]

They are Kul Tiran Humans.

The same way a Chimpanzee and an Orangutan are both Monkeys, and share a common ancestry with Humans.

They can share ancestry, and still be different. See: Nightborne vs. Night Elf, Blood Elf vs. Void Elf, Blood Elf vs. Night Elf, Gilnean vs. Stormwind Human, the list goes on...

Oh my god. I think this is the most ignorant comment I've ever seen. You're comparing a kind of evolution that takes thousands/millions of years to happen with humans that are a little bit bigger and fatter. Nothing else to say, I cannot argue with such a silly argument.

[Nork]

Nobody was arguing that they weren't Human. What we're arguing is they are different than Humans, the playable WoW race.

Kul Tiran Humans are different than Humans.



You're taking 'race' as it would be taken in real life as opposed to World of Warcraft. You need to stop doing that, as that's not how this works.

Night Elves are a different 'race' than Nightborne. Nightborne are just Night Elves that lived with the Nightwell. Arguably, they're still Night Elves, just minorly changed by magic to look different - But they're treated distinctly, because they are a separate nation with it's own ideals.
Void Elves are a different 'race' than Blood Elves. Void Elves WERE Blood Elves who were touched by the Void in some indescribable way - It would be ignorant to call them Blood Elves still, but they definitely have resemblances.
Chimpanzees and Orangutans are both 'Monkeys', but are distinct from one another in many, many ways.

And don't try to argue real life evolution in a world where magic has, and continues to, alter people's forms, shapes, and beings at will. Evolution is not some far off thing here - Polymorphing is possible and doable, and 'ascension' to different beings has already shown to be possible. It's not unheard of at all for magic to quicken the pace of evolution in this world.

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See above.

For someone who calls ME ignorant, you seem to forget this isn't real. So what evolution is like in real life has little bearing to how Blizzard wants evolution to work in their world.

I mean, do I have to remind you that Humans came about as being mutated Vrykul babies? Literally, Vrykul one day, cursed to give birth to smaller children the next - I don't know what to tell you if you think it's not possible, it already happened.

And don't try to argue real life evolution in a world where magic has, and continues to, alter people's forms, shapes, and beings at will

Chimpanzees and Orangutans are both 'Monkeys', but are distinct from one another in many, many ways.

The same guy, the same post.

PD: Kul Tirans have never been a different race or a different kind of humans until BfA. They were normal humans. Blizzard just wanted to make a different shape of humans, that's all. Stop saying silly arguments please, it's ridiculous.

[Garymorilix]

Nobody was arguing that they weren't Human. What we're arguing is they are different than Humans, the playable WoW race.

Kul Tiran Humans are different than Humans.



You're taking 'race' as it would be taken in real life as opposed to World of Warcraft. You need to stop doing that, as that's not how this works.

Night Elves are a different 'race' than Nightborne. Nightborne are just Night Elves that lived with the Nightwell. Arguably, they're still Night Elves, just minorly changed by magic to look different - But they're treated distinctly, because they are a separate nation with it's own ideals.
Void Elves are a different 'race' than Blood Elves. Void Elves WERE Blood Elves who were touched by the Void in some indescribable way - It would be ignorant to call them Blood Elves still, but they definitely have resemblances.
Chimpanzees and Orangutans are both 'Monkeys', but are distinct from one another in many, many ways.

And don't try to argue real life evolution in a world where magic has, and continues to, alter people's forms, shapes, and beings at will. Evolution is not some far off thing here - Polymorphing is possible and doable, and 'ascension' to different beings has already shown to be possible. It's not unheard of at all for magic to quicken the pace of evolution in this world.

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See above.

For someone who calls ME ignorant, you seem to forget this isn't real. So what evolution is like in real life has little bearing to how Blizzard wants evolution to work in their world.

I mean, do I have to remind you that Humans came about as being mutated Vrykul babies? Literally, Vrykul one day, cursed to give birth to smaller children the next - I don't know what to tell you if you think it's not possible, it already happened.

No, Kul tiran humans and "regular" humans are the same human race. Nothing different. Their racial abilities are different because that's a gameplay thing, they can't have the same racials. They are both the same human race, not some type of sub-species of humans.

Elven races are a very bad comaprison. Elven races are different based on their different types of magic addiction that changes their body.

The more accurate in-WoW-universe comparion would be the orcs. Blackrock, warsong, frostwolf, laughing skull etc. These are tribes with different cultures but they are the same orc race. Like lordareon/kul tiras/gilneas/arathi etc. There is nothing different in them. One is fat, one is thinner, but that doesn't change someone's race.

[Firann]

Kul Tirans, Stormwindians, Lordeanians etc etc etc are all the same humans. That is what they were always.

No one differentiated them. KulTirans also were around during the third war. In fact, the only kingdom that was not present was Stormwind, which became the base of operrations for the Alliance after the destruction of Lordaeron. Daelin Proudmoore was the Grand Admiral of the Alliance during the 2nd War and he was still an ally during the 3rd War. He died AFTER the 3rd War at the siege of Theramore.

So yes, Kul'Tirans were around. Maybe not an abundance of them.

Each human kingdom became a different "race" simply to justify the different models in the current game. It makes no sense that the Kul'Tirans changed so much from the 2nd war to now. Even if they changed previously why did we never see them before? All their soldiers were "normal" humans before?

In any case, if they didn't want the Kul'Tiran model they could at least have changed it to humans rather than dwarfs :P

[Xanadrienne]

They are Kul Tiran Humans.

The same way a Chimpanzee and an Orangutan are both Monkeys, and share a common ancestry with Humans.

They can share ancestry, and still be different. See: Nightborne vs. Night Elf, Blood Elf vs. Void Elf, Blood Elf vs. Night Elf, Gilnean vs. Stormwind Human, the list goes on...

Yes, Kul Tirans are a different race for gameplay purposes (Hm, I wonder what happens to Lightforged Draenei in Caverns of Time?)...

Neither chimpanzees nor orangutans are monkeys. They are apes. Just ask any Terry Pratchett fan (ook!). Monkeys (and there is one Old World family and there are 5 New World families) are from two other branches of the order Primates' family tree, distant from each other and from the apes.

[salate]

I just dont think they even thought about CoT at this point.
So you got a random model