View Poll Results: When did Warcraft lore start going down?

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  • In WC3: RoC

    15 4.89%
  • In WC3: TFT

    0 0%
  • In WoW: Vanilla

    25 8.14%
  • In WoW: TBC

    52 16.94%
  • In WoW: WotLK

    11 3.58%
  • In WoW: Cata

    102 33.22%
  • In WoW: MoP

    22 7.17%
  • In WoW: WoD

    64 20.85%
  • In WoW: Legion

    4 1.30%
  • In WoW: BfA

    12 3.91%
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  1. #181
    I don't know how people are voting cata when TBC had so many retcons we don't even talk about it anymore.
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  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    It was indeed impossible to return to warcraft 3 Horde. But I think MoP explained (And maybe, failed since we didn't get to see what the Horde became under Vol'jin) how the Horde could work moving forward. I don't think everyone would hold hands and be buddy-buddy. Vol'jin even claims that the Horde tends to bicker and argue but the notion of working side by side to defend each other was it's core value.

    Like having political discussions with your cousins during Christmas. You wouldn't like having them every day, but you'd still probably tolerate them and help them out if you can.
    Working with one another by itself is not a value. That summarizes every Alliance possible and every permutation of the Horde. That's kind of the issue. The factions, already in Cataclysm, were such ridiculously large tents that a rebellion primed on the values of the organization as a whole instead of the component races was doomed to come across as kind of hollow. If you look at the blurbs of what the factions are supposed to be, they're effectively interchangable. If I told you that the Horde were defenders of hope and unity, not only would that be an outright lie, official site be damned, but it could just as easily describe the Alliance. Mists didn't push the Horde forward except by pure accident when Vol'jin ended up an incidental compromise candidate who didn't address any of the underlying issues except the existence of an orc cast. It was an entirely regressive exercise that failed. BFA is another one, but a more transparent one where they're determined to crowbar this square peg into a nonexistent hole, which is why we're on our third interminable Saurfang cutscene, this time with extra Green Jesus flavor.

    The war shifted from a grey conflict in Cataclysm to pretty Black and White in MoP. I agree.
    But that does come with Garrosh's explicit lust for war that was alluded as early as WotLK. Sure, he wasn't a villain, but his desire to conquer the Alliance was evident...

    The relationship between Garrosh and Vol'jin was soured from the start. I think that in their very first interaction, Vol'jin was happy with the Horde's victory over the Lich King and Garrosh already claimed that he did nothing to help but merely recover the Echo Isles. So... yeah, not a very great first impression either.
    Then he killed Cairne (Unintenionally, despite Baine's delusions in the future) and his plans for conquest moved forward...
    This is kind of the problem. The shift in the ethos of the war was neither methodological nor was it addressed or followed through. Vol'jin threatened Garrosh with death and Cairne rebelled over a false flag before Garrosh did much of anything and the war itself was launched by Varian back in Wrath, with diplomacy failing. Yet every character in the setting treats it as though none of this, nor the Theramore incursion into the S. Barrens that threatened to invade Mulgore ever happened. Tides of War collapses if any character for even one moment had the events of Cataclysm acknowledged. Instead, it operates on the assumption that there is no war going on - despite factions clashing with huge armies all over the place and Garrosh being on a second invasion of Ashenvale, the Alliance having declared the war, trade embargoes being in and Jaina having built a highway specifically to speed up a war that she was running out of troops to invest in. The orcs' entire reason to go to war - that being Thrall's racial guilt, their resource deprivation that was already a big deal well before the Shattering according to the stories, is never brought up except in Garrosh's dialogue in 5.1. No named orc except Saurfang and Thrall even opposes Garrosh that we see.

    The entire resource thing is unceremoniously dumped with no resolution after Mists and we're meant to assume that things are better now for whatever reason. Thrall's monologue, Garrosh's moment of pathos and the whole groundwork they had to go to that point pay lip service to those ideas, but it's a matter of telling and not showing. When we see the troll leader threaten the orc leader with death in their first conversation, have his race completely suppressed by a single unit of Kor'kron and then have to plead the Alliance for help in toppling said Warchief, who's grounds for war and who's opponents hostile actions are completely ignored, the story falls apart. It did not evolve into being black and white, it's just a switch being flipped and all characters being forced into roles they could not possibly fit.
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  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    I don't know how people are voting cata when TBC had so many retcons we don't even talk about it anymore.

    This.

    Not understanding the results. The poll is just about lore, just because you enjoyed TBC as expansion doesn't mean the lore didnt take a total nose dive.

  4. #184
    It didn't start going down, however people started ignoring it probably from MoP on.
    As things got added to make stuff easy (flying and quest maps etc) - people stopped bothering about the story.
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  5. #185
    Over 9000! Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zstr View Post
    since christe golden joined in
    Lol this forum loved Christie Golden like 3 years ago

  6. #186
    High Overlord Jericho21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adunai View Post
    Alright, -snip-
    I thought Cataclysm was excellent in Lore. It brought an end to the Deathwing arc as well as the Unlimited POWAH the Dragonflights seemed to have. I didn't like the Aggra-Thrall thing at the end. I didn't like the lead up to MoP. And that's where I think the lore took a shit. MoP onward was/has been/is a shitshow. WoD, ugh, I cannot stand. Legion was TBC 2.0 done right, even with a time travel Gul'dan.

    BfA I will honestly wait until the end to declare it the Windows Millennium Edition of WoW. Thus far, it's shaping up to be worse than WoD.

  7. #187
    The Lightbringer Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    I don't know how people are voting cata when TBC had so many retcons we don't even talk about it anymore.
    The thing is that the numerous lore !@#&ups in BC were largely self-contained. Those weird portal machines and spaceships had no influence whatsoever in Azeroth, same as Illidank or Kael being turned into loot pinatas. It was fairly !@#&ty, sure (I loved the Human/BE campaign from WC3, Vashj and Kael were actually relatable, even likeable), especially when Blizzard decided that the big bad was going to be Illidan because... reasons.

    But unlike BC's, the bad parts of the story from Cata, MoP (gonna leave WoD out of the picture because it was an irredeemable mess) have been stacking and bringing down the core elements of the story, aka the factions. To the point that today one of the factions will have to either disappear or be saved by a Deus ex Machina, which is lame as lame can get.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Thrall will humblebrag about how he doesn't want it [to be Warchief].
    Saurfang'll probably die or say he's 'too tired'.
    Baine will gasp for air as he plops Anduin's boot out of his mouth and say 'I'll be High King of the Horde!'.

  8. #188
    I may be alone here, but I REALLY fucking hate that they divide what little, terrible plot and lore there is between the game and the books.

    A lot of what's going on in the game is unraveled or clouded by the books and vis versa.

    Also, the terrible writers need to be replaced. There are plenty of DeviantArt furry fanfic writers that'd do a better job for 1% of the pay without jamming forced diversity and 'fight the patriarchy!' shit down our throats.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxrokur View Post
    Kael'thas joining the Legion makes senses as the current night elves rangers or if randomly Tirion sided with the LK, the characters has lots of beef with the enemy and would rather die than join them. Also Grom is just a hero in eyes of the horde or among the orcs at worse case, he isn't celebrated by every race as the killer of Mannoroth.
    I don't get your line about Grom - I brought him up because he was a prominent character since WC2 - and he was infamous to the Alliance, and became so to the NEs in WC3. Tirion and the LK are mortal enemies, but thats not really so with Kael'Thas and the Legion. Warcraft as a whole is sort of like Game of Thrones, people are always betraying others for their interests. Kaels was his people, if you read the full WC3/BC storyline. Plus its not like Kael and Illidan are best friends...

    So while we ended up killing Kael'thas, it wasn't because he was necessarily "evil," ... many villains are just in the way. The PCs allied themselves with Shattrath and the Naaru when we go to Outland, and they asked for help killing Kael'Thas and Illidan.

    I get it, people liked those characters. But that doesn't make them immune to being traitors, or immune to villainy.

  10. #190
    Herald of the Titans Aoyi's Avatar
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    I think the problem has been there from the beginning when talking about in game lore. The best writing has always been in the books. The game has told the bare minimum to get you from point A to point B. I understand Blizzard wanting to make money, so selling books to go along with their game makes sense, but when major character developments or deaths happen in an optional medium, the absence in game is felt. Especially seeing how much better other mmo’s handle story in game.

  11. #191
    The moment Forsaken were shoved into the Horde.

  12. #192
    Scarab Lord Maxrokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    I don't get your line about Grom - I brought him up because he was a prominent character since WC2 - and he was infamous to the Alliance, and became so to the NEs in WC3. Tirion and the LK are mortal enemies, but thats not really so with Kael'Thas and the Legion. Warcraft as a whole is sort of like Game of Thrones, people are always betraying others for their interests. Kaels was his people, if you read the full WC3/BC storyline. Plus its not like Kael and Illidan are best friends...

    So while we ended up killing Kael'thas, it wasn't because he was necessarily "evil," ... many villains are just in the way. The PCs allied themselves with Shattrath and the Naaru when we go to Outland, and they asked for help killing Kael'Thas and Illidan.

    I get it, people liked those characters. But that doesn't make them immune to being traitors, or immune to villainy.
    I though you example of Gromm was his heel-face turning but actually that never happened and even WoD showed him as a big bad guy, Kael'thas was always noble and if Garithos wasn't around, he probably would be a member of the alliance with his people. Besides he knows the cause of his suffering comes from the Legion which is why villain bate him out of the nowhere is weird as much as Tirion joining the LK, both lose their family because of the consequences of some jerk playing with toys that were gived by an malevolent entity.

    Also Illidan got a brez to defeat the legion which defeats the purpose of the villain bate or would you have liked to see Turalyon going nuts by the light and kille only to return as Turalyon the white to defeat Xe'ra?
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    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  13. #193
    going down? it was never up. but that's fine. it's a very basic and simple story with all the classic tropes. i've never had an issue with the lore. i've always enjoyed it. and i still do.

    you want to know who really destroyed the lore? it was you. you sad nerds fighting over fictional facts on the internet.

    i'm so sick of this. every time i come here, it's all i see. the writing sucks, the writing sucks, the writing sucks, the writing sucks.

  14. #194
    To most of the complainers, especially on this forum: Whichever expansion they finally started paying attention to the story in, and started judging it right away because it's the cool thing to do, without taking a look at any of the past contexts.

    This is why we have people crying about how the faction war doesn't make sense lmao

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    To most of the complainers, especially on this forum: Whichever expansion they finally started paying attention to the story in, and started judging it right away because it's the cool thing to do, without taking a look at any of the past contexts.

    This is why we have people crying about how the faction war doesn't make sense lmao
    Yeah, and the Forsaken willingly turning into the Scourge!!! Oh wait...

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathasil View Post
    Yeah, and the Forsaken willingly turning into the Scourge!!! Oh wait...
    Did I ever say there wasn't a problem with the lore? I'm more so getting at those that complain about the most simple, properly established stuff that they have no understanding of.

  17. #197
    where is anduin and human potential™?

  18. #198
    I have been of the opinion that they missed a great opportunity starting at the Wrath Gate. Having Garrosh lead the charge instead of Dranosh always felt like it would have been a better move and made more sense to me.

  19. #199
    When they tried to make the lore about pvp.

    Faction conflict should have ended years ago.

  20. #200
    Bloodsail Admiral Evaddon's Avatar
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    Its never went downhill and its never been great. Its been a fine wave of ups and down every expansion, alot of lore that has been added or reworked has had its problems and various implications ignored or quickly brushed over.

    But its a story made into an MMO, we can only get so much because Blizzard chases down the main story beats instead of fleshing out minor or small details, or lately moving past major events and consequences to chases down the main story/goal of the Expansion.

    Also we are sideline characters, we aren't the main forces in this story, we don't get to see everything or be apart of everything that happens, we are completely reactionary to the events of others.
    Last edited by Evaddon; 2019-05-16 at 01:54 AM.

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