Civilized Originality; On Populism vs. Elitism.

[Ivanstone]

I am talking about trade agreements... the ~1950's were the hight of manufacturing:

The 1950's were also when the US had a very distinct underclass of people working menial jobs. The 1950's were also a period of time where substantial amounts of the world were recovering from WW2 and become isolationist. It wasn't hard for the US to grab a much bigger slice of the pie.

[Mihalik]

Honestly, I am just totally disgusted at the "liberal" elite class. Talk with the people you are making these decisions for first. All of this feel like its coming out from a "I know what's better for them" place instead of actually going out, listening to their issues and figuring out a plan. This is why I supported, and still support Sanders.

I'm not exactly sure what is your personal definition of the "liberal" elite class. Sanders has a degree in political science from UC, AoC has a cum laude degree in international relations and economics from BU. They are the definition of the liberal intellectual elite.

Are you saying that Establishment Democrats suck? Yeah, they do. Of course they do, because they are essentially Republican Light and an extension of the existing corporate dominated political structures.

That doesn't mean that we are meant to combat bumbling absurd idiocy and cheap right wing nationalism with left wing bumbling absurd idiocy and cheap left wing populism, that won't fix shit, if anything it would likely make things worse. If anything the polar opposite, we need competent, ambitious, motivated and principled technocrats with real plans, proposals, policy ideas and the ability to communicate them, all the things that really Hillary for example either didn't have or was incapable of effectively communicate.

[Elegiac]

The point was that we had more manufacturing jobs, which means more people were employed.

Care to revise this before I post the current unemployment rate?

[Ivanstone]

The point was that we had more manufacturing jobs, which means more people were employed. I don't really care "why" they were... just that they were, and are not any longer.

The current solution to that has not been working, which is why isolationism is back on the table for some people that voted for Trump (or Sanders).

The "why" is what matters. Times will always change. The US previously enjoyed an outsized space in the world but that would eventually come to an end. You either use that advantage or you don't. The US still occupies a unique space in the world since they have both a huge population and is well developed.

The current solution is to actually pass meaningful change and not shovel more money into the pockets of people who don't need it.

Isolationism is only back on the table because of racism. There's nothing wrong with free trade. The US makes money from NAFTA and similar deals. The only thing needed is to make sure that money gets back to the people who need it.

[Elegiac]

They were working a "living" wage, and could support themselves.

Remind me which party supports wage increases...

[Mihalik]

So find a way to fix this that the proletariat supports, and I will support that.

But currently a lot of the "underclass" do not trust our insitutitions enough to believe either party, really.

https://www.gp.org/green_new_deal

What the "proletariat" supports NOW is utterly irrelevant. The key is what the "proletariat" needs to be convinced to support what would be good for all of us, and how to convince them to support it is the question.

The Green New Deal is just one form of the basic principles I spoke about, valuing labor in all forms, focusing on protecting workers rights, focusing on sustainable development etc.

It's about aligning the Democratic party behind people who actively share those values and are capable of pushing them and communicating them.

Even under the worst case scenario of the Democratic party running someone like Hilary Clinton realistically speaking in effective governance she or someone like her would have done and would do a better job looking out of the "proletariat" than any Republican populist ever would or will or is simply ideologically capable of doing.

Instead of raging against some random hard to define "liberal elite" what you should be doing is finding the most competent person with the best policies and then do your best to convince those who get duped by cheap populism that somehow the more complicated answer is better than the simple one.

[Elegiac]

Why do you think I support the Republicans? And wage increases have other consequences over time... like inflation.

Exactly how do you plan to achieve a living wage without increasing wages. Because the jobs that were outsourced most certainly do not furnish a living wage anymore.

Also "but muh inflation" was a thing in the 50s too. That's a crap argument.

[Elegiac]

A good molotov cocktail at the system, most likely...

How very vague and flaccid.

Got something more specific?

Because over time it does... there is a reason it is not a panacea.

Which is why wages need to be increased regularly.

You're basically just illustrating how contradictory and illogical the demands of Les Deplorables actually are.

[Elegiac]

Just wait, I won't need to explain anything.

Again, vague bullshit. You might as well be claiming that the Tethered are coming to stab you in the face with scissors.

Which means inflation increases regularly as well.

:slow clap:

You've finally discovered the reason why market economies are healthiest in a state of slow and continual growth. Because wages need to keep up with prices.

[jeezusisacasual]

The easy way to fix the min. wage issue is just to index it to inflationary measures on a state by state basis ( it would obviously be more in Seattle then Cheyenne for example ).

Populism is here to stay until we get to a point that the underclass is being treated far better and this not only goes for the states but across the western world. Simple fixes like healthcare and addressing wage stagnation. It is not very hard to address these issues but it goes against whom both parties are sold out to. Either way if the continued reign of populism is not corrected we will see China swing upward further and further and if we have a quagmire in Iran then you can just give the world to China at that point.

[Elegiac]

Which is not what we have... boom and bust is the pattern of our economy...

This is as inane as claiming that a cold winter means climate change isn't happening.

Booms and busts are a function of humans being imperfectly rational economic actors. There's no way to prevent them, only to ensure the rate is manageable enough so that consumers and businesses can adapt.

[Mihalik]

The first being to strip personhood from corporations. Second being to throw out all the lobbyists in government.

Policies absolutely not a single Republican supports, especially not the self avowed populists and libertarians. And the Republicans who theoretically would support it, would immediately and irrevocably oppose it as soon as anyone with the Democrat label would support it too.

Also competent "liberul elites" don't stop at Sanders. AoC, Warren, Gabbard, even Gillibrand although she's more a mixed baggage with a lot of history, but with a traceable and gradual policy shift, but the most notably competent communicators and consistent on policy democrats off the top of my head would be AoC, Warren and Gabbard, outside of Sanders of course.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Honestly, I am just totally disgusted at the "liberal" elite class. Talk with the people you are making these decisions for first. All of this feel like its coming out from a "I know what's better for them" place instead of actually going out, listening to their issues and figuring out a plan. This is why I supported, and still support Sanders.

What's really funny is that all this time you and Theo and others have been whining about "liberals" trying to tell others what's best for them, you yourselves have already decided what's best for the working class, when a large portion of the working class is against your own ideas about what's best for them.

You've taken Trump's electoral college victory as supportive evidence that the lefties and liberal elite need to get in the trenches and listen to the "people of the earth" when in reality, Hillary still won most of the working class vote. Let that sink in, and perhaps you'll stop lecturing others about what you think is best for them.

[Felya]

She won in the cities, sure, but not in urban areas.

Yeah, she won the places where most people reside. She lost, because these urban areas have a greater political representation, than the cities. Cities that are supporting these urban areas and more than willing to implement the same policy they are jealous of.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Why do you think I support the Republicans? And wage increases have other consequences over time... like inflation.

*BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT*

Please look at inflation charts over time in relation to minimum wage increases.

You'll notice there's absolutely zero correlation, and in the US, the years following minimum wage hikes have actually had drastically decreased inflation. I realize you are being sucked down the conservative propaganda hole Connal, but I didn't realize you were this far gone.

[Cthulhu 2020]

She won in the cities, sure, but not in urban areas.

I see you, Theo, and the normal conservatives keep saying this as if it means something. She won the cities and lost the urban areas. Ok? So what? You gonna post a map showing all of the vast swaths of the US that are "red counties" that have all of 150 people in them as if it means something? Are plots of land what's important, or is it American citizens?

This argument is shallow and pathetic, and needs to stop being used. Hillary won more people over. The fact that Trump won more rural areas is irrelevant to the point at hand. This argument is only ever trying to appeal to some emotional BS, which I guess is trying to say that lefties care more about cities? In reality I hold everyone equal, 1 person = 1 vote. If you think rural areas should be more important than cities because you value land over people, just come out and say it already.

[Cthulhu 2020]

One, there are differing opinions on this, two, I was not against it per se, only that I said it is not a panacea, and three, I do not mind being called a conservative... or a liberal.

Yes, I've tango'd with people who "believe" that minimum wage causes inflation. Using numerous studies as sources, I've reached the conclusion that minimum wage increases exist to ensure the common man is able to keep up with inflation. Stagnant wages are causing the death of the proletariat, and one thing that DOES happen after minimum wage increases, is that we see wages all the way up to the 95th percentile increase when the minimum wage goes up.

What we do not see is any significant price hike or "inflation", which many people who say wage hikes cause inflation tend to conflate. They mix up product price hikes with "inflation" which are two entirely separate concepts.

But as we'll find, the purchasing power of the lowest paid among us will increase significantly, while prices would only need to raise a small amount to even pay for those wage increases, since labor is a relatively small portion of business expense, at least in the current US economic climate.

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It does not matter what I think. The fact is she lost in our system. Deal with that.

My entire point was that your argument that the liberal elite has lost touch with the proletariat is complete and utter BS, because Hillary still won the majority of the working class. Don't attempt a dodge just becuase you got called on it.

[Felya]

I am sorry guys... but, Trump’s tax cut is already causing massive inflation. Without any sort of minimum wage increase. At this point, all wages should be increased, because inflation is lowering the worth of your income at a pretty brisk pace. Just hope that Trump doesn’t get his way, to lower the interest rate.

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It does not matter what I think. The fact is she lost in our system. Deal with that.

A NYC oligarch, beat Arkansas woman of the year... despite her winning the majority of working class... he won due to the system we have. Which of them is a coastal elite again? Do they need to make Trump tower out of ivory, to make it more obvious?

[Cthulhu 2020]

A NYC oligarch, beat Arkansas woman of the year... despite her winning the majority of working class... he won due to the system we have. Which of them is a coastal elite again? Do they need to make Trump tower out of ivory, to make it more obvious?

Trump's apartment is already basically entirely coated in gold plating. Though we know that Trump likes to cut corners when it's for anyone but himself, so the rest of Trump tower is likely made from the cheapest materials we could find.

Anyone ever wondering why Trump steaks, Trump vodka, Trump airlines, Trump Bidets, Trump fleshlights, etc. all failed should realize something: Trump made all his products targeted at rich people. He marketed them with a gold veneer and an enormous price tag on most of his products. His failing was that he insisted they all be made with some of the worst materials possible. So basically every rich person he marketed these products to, knew that the products were shit, and instead of buying a Trump handbag that was made out of wal mart leather, just went to louis vuitton and bought a better bag.

Which is basically a great metaphor for his presidency: A giant pile of shit with gold plating.

Anyone who sees Trump's election as a rebuke against the Democrat party, and fails to acknowledge that it's really just a bad electoral system, needs to get their head screwed on straight. The proletariat elected Hillary. The business elite elected Trump. The end.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I stated my opinion, you do not agree with it, great, let's agree to disagree.

But you doing what you are doing is not going to win you any favors; things will continue to get worse.

The facts disagree with your opinion. Though you're still of the position that all opinions matter. They don't, especially when they're factually untrue.

People who think the proletariat support Trump are in for a rude awakening in 2020, and they should have already been awoken rudely in 2018 with how thoroughly Dems trounced Republicans.