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  1. #1
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Civilized Originality; On Populism vs. Elitism.

    Members of the French upper class, who generally read nothing in the American press except the New York Times and the Washington Post, tend to see Donald Trump as the most visible representative of a deplorable “populist” wave. They take him for the voice of a contemptible, uneducated portion of the population that smokes, drinks, and pollutes the atmosphere with its exhaust fumes. Against them stand the openminded and civilized middle class.

    Of course, this is a false conception of things. It was enough to examine the Trump vote in 2016 to observe that most white American college graduates voted for him (not those who went on to postgraduate studies, especially if they went to the best universities, impregnable citadels of intellectual conformism, also known as Clintonism). The truth is that Trump’s election showed that his new proposals on economic, immigration, and environmental policy had already resonated, including among a segment of elites.

    The opposition between what is called “populist” movements and movements of so-called “elites” has long been complicated by a major paradox: the “elites” express, in elegant and apparently moderate terms, absurd ideas that are characterized, in reality, by extreme violence. The discourse of globalization is nothing but—forgive the expression—shit in a silk stocking. Among its propagandists, we find well-bred persons who boast of every imaginable university credential, but who say awful things and condemn a significant part of the population to social exclusion. In the opposing camp, we find improbable personalities, such as Trump, who certainly utter obscenities, but obscenities that are in fact much more reasonable and moderate in their economic, social, and demographic implications.

    Oren Cass’s book, The Once and Future Worker, might be helpful in closing this gap. It is a remarkable intellectual articulation of “populism,” a kind of manifesto of a polite Trumpist, if you will, one relieved of excessive language and so rendered amazingly convincing. The proof is the very favorable review by the columnist David Brooks in the very anti-Trump New York Times. His column suggests that this book is one of those rare works capable of affecting a change in attitude among its less dogmatic readers: it convinces through its moderation, its open-mindedness, and its willingness to negotiate ideas.

    Cass begins by stating a thesis to which a specialist on societal dynamics like me cannot remain insensitive: he argues that no political program whose objective is the nation’s durable prosperity can be focused on purely economic questions. His critique of GDP and the rate of growth (which are not ends in themselves) is interesting because it avoids the usual pitfalls of anti-growth discourse. To be prosperous, Cass explains, a society must ensure that families and local communities fare well. And that is possible only if one gives people the means to earn their living through their work. Thus, economics is in the service of a higher goal: a general and more or less widely shared prosperity, which, in the end, benefits the economy itself, thanks to the effect of virtuous retroaction: “Policies that target growth without concern for the economy’s longer-term trajectory, or for the well-being of the society within which that economy operates, will tend to erode the capacity for growth,” Cass notes. For example, to import cheap products to the detriment of national production, or to favor massive immigration of under-paid manpower to the detriment of local manpower, may well add a few points to the GDP. But this may not be a winning calculation in the end: “Even if gains exceed the costs initially, what happens if the losses undermine stable families, decimate entire communities, foster government dependence, and perhaps contribute to skyrocketing substance abuse and suicide rates?” he asks.

    How can a labor market create decent lives for everyone? Cass questions all of globalization’s principles. He prudently avoids using the term “protectionism,” except once or twice, with reservations. But protectionism is in fact what is at stake. He arrives at some radical proposals. He recognizes that taxes on imports, in the context of fluctuating exchange currencies, are complicated to implement, and that their effectiveness is a matter of debate. On the other hand, if a large American company, such as Tesla, decides to move its production to China, why not prevent it from importing the cars it then manufactures to the United States? To those who object that this would amount to declaring a trade war on China and exposing oneself to retaliatory measures, Cass replies that this war has already started, whether one likes it or not—it’s just that it’s been prosecuted by only one of the two sides. Numerous countries, particularly China, have long been practicing a form of ferocious protectionism (by favoring their national enterprises through discriminatory subsidies and regulations). If needed, Cass observes, the United States does possess a formidable lever where the Chinese ruling class is concerned: it could prevent their children from pursuing studies at American universities.

    The question of immigration is posed with an acuity that can be unsettling. I confess feeling overwhelmed on this point. I was accustomed to considering Australian immigration policy as appalling, and of all immigration policies based on education level as intrinsically perverse and offensive to the logic of human rights (which, in fact, they are). At the same time, as Cass shows with great lucidity, the entry of very low-wage immigrants into the American labor market, or any labor market, only exerts a downward pressure on lower-wage workers. All employers favor it, but the effects are horrible for its first victims—the workers. Therefore, there is nothing scandalous about addressing immigration controls. One might oppose such measures, but Cass invites us to assess the human consequences of such opposition. He does this in his usual peaceful, measured, conciliatory tone. On the other hand, to welcome more educated immigrants is to introduce competition with the children of the middle classes; such selective immigration involves an implicit egalitarian factor, representing real generosity on the part of a welcoming middle class.

    We find the same civilized originality when Cass takes up the problem of environmental regulations. Where air quality is concerned, regulations have undeniably been very effective (one breathes almost as well in New York City as in the national parks). But for American industry, which is required to spend a lot of money to conform to regulations, the tradeoff is not so wonderful. Cass views these rules as largely based on biased criteria: in order to justify them, a monetary value has been assigned to air quality. But this value has been greatly overestimated. In particular, it has not taken into account certain collateral damage: the closing of factories and the destruction of stable, well-paying jobs for the most disadvantaged. These jobs might have contributed more to the good health of blue-collar Americans—avoiding unemployment, instability, alcoholism, and suicide—than the reduction of particulate matter. Cass’s point is not to call for a reversal of existing environmental regulations; he wishes only that it not be extended, since the environmental benefits would be marginal compared with the social costs.

    Overall, The Once and Future Worker favors the rehabilitation of manufacturing, since “it remains among the most productive economic activities for less-skilled workers.” Jean Fourastié understood this in his analysis of France’s Trentes Glorieuses (the three postwar decades of economic expansion): gains in the real standard of living are linked to gains in productivity, and gains in productivity happen in manufacturing. In a world without manufacturing, based uniquely on the tertiary economy, one sees neither gains in productivity nor increases in purchasing power. As Cass reminds us in a felicitous formulation: “Everyone can’t just serve each other coffee.” The production of tangible, exportable goods remains indispensable.

    Support for industry has another inestimable virtue: it favors the least qualified workers, since industrial jobs are the only kind that make it possible for them to earn a living in a dignified way. This touches on a fundamental point: we must accept the fact that not everyone is destined for advanced studies—for becoming an executive, a chemist, or a software developer. Yet the current “elitist” discourse claims the contrary: it holds that the population must adjust to the economy, that it must make itself over in order to become more qualified—or die. Of course, the economy should adjust to the active population as it exists. Cass’s proposal for subsidizing the lowest wages establishes itself as a synthesis of Republican concerns (work incentives) and Democratic concerns (financial aid through taxes).

    Though a man of synthesis, Cass’s pedigree remains unequivocal: he was part of Mitt Romney’s campaign team and is a member of a conservative think tank, the Manhattan Institute. He makes very good use of the subliminal rhetoric of white American conservatism: family, states’ rights, and local communities over big government. For those, like me, who remember the time when it was the Communist Party that showed interest in the proletariat, it is troubling to find oneself in a world where it is now American Republicans, such as Cass, who worry about workers. How is it that he proves to be infinitely more humane than a contemporary French socialist?

    Perhaps, in order to feel solidarity with other people concerning questions of real life, we need to be penetrated, at least unconsciously, by the idea that we belong to the same community. Transnational discourse is rather nice, and at certain historical moments like this nationalist fever, can serve as a good corrective. But it has a dark side: it amounts to denying solidarity with the people who live in the same country as you do and speak the same language.

    This is what Donald Trump has understood. He has expressed it in a shocking way, but his analysis is right. We could benefit in France from billionaires who share, if not his outrageous language, then certainly his good sense and social conscience. Is this just a pious wish? No doubt. French wealth and capital, alas, are not sufficiently autonomous, in relation to the state, compared with Trump’s independence of mind. The upper bureaucracy’s control of banks and many large French corporations prevents the development of moral good sense among billionaires. We are a little like Putin’s Russia—minus the patriotism of Russian economic elites.
    (source)

    The author Emmanuel Todd describes a stark contrast between an elite that is insane and absurd in its actions, and a populism that is absurd in its words but rational in its desires. Todd is one of the most interesting public intellectuals in France today. He’s also an example of something mysteriously missing in the American discussion: a left-nationalist. Todd is also notable among French public intellectuals in having a record of actual serious scholarship in before becoming a public commentator. While I might not have agreed with Todd's statements on the Charlie Hebdo rallies, he is still worth a read. His work on the sociology of family structure is genuinely important (some might say groundbreaking). I have to agree also with the assessment that many an elite person will in very poetic terms call for absolutely attrocious things, but since it is often coaxed in the polite pleasentry of Beltway consensus speak, or not spoken but acknowledged, it insidiously is nodded and eaten up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  2. #2
    Of course, this is a false conception of things. It was enough to examine the Trump vote in 2016 to observe that most white American college graduates voted for him (not those who went on to postgraduate studies, especially if they went to the best universities, impregnable citadels of intellectual conformism, also known as Clintonism). The truth is that Trump’s election showed that his new proposals on economic, immigration, and environmental policy had already resonated, including among a segment of elites.
    I just started reading this article but it already has mistakes.

    Last edited by NED funded; 2019-05-15 at 12:32 AM.

  3. #3
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    I'd post a serious response if I could get up off the floor between laughing fits.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  4. #4
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryotriX View Post
    Isn't college grad+ dissimilar to "most white American college graduates voted for him (not those who went on to postgraduate studies, especially if they went to the best universities, impregnable citadels of intellectual conformism, also known as Clintonism)"? The first seems to include that.
    Bill Clinton is from Arkansas... wtf are you talking about? That guy is an intellectual? Since when?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    Personally I would rather pay a bit more, and buy American, then pay less and support China, and their non-existent environmental policies...
    Yeah, because you are that evil STEM and not a coal miner struggling for every penny. How often do you shop at Walmart?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    That was an interesting read...

    I have to say I agree with his assessment. The "elite", and by that I mean "Highly Educated" left leaning people, tend to see the future in STEM. Which means all the citizenry should adapt to the new economy, a global economy, where low wage work is either being outsourced, taken by underpaid immigrants, or automated.

    If they fight against this idea, either by being unsupportive of globalism, or immigration they are seen as racist, and "Trumpists"; in affect it ends up being as you and the author of the article noted..."Change or die"... only they said no to that, and instead are trying to change the "inevitable" status quo of globalsim... turning the country and slowly the world against it. And for good reason. China may make cheap products, but they also have no regulations to speak of, dump chemicals into the air, water, land, etc, so we can buy our cheap tchotchkes and then throw that out too, plastic, plastic everywhere...

    Globalism as it is, is not sustainable for workers (the proletariat) and not sustainable to the environment.

    Personally I would rather pay a bit more, and buy American, then pay less and support China, and their non-existent environmental policies...
    The US or China?

  6. #6
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryotriX View Post
    It's a quote, my dude, chill. Look at what I replied to, and what is in the article.
    I know... I don’t understand how that works. That article from first paragraph down is a mess. Can anyone show me a single picture of Trump drinking? Yet, he exemplifies it? It’s bizarre...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  7. #7
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    A rather surprising revelation for the so-called nationalists who are tired of being called racist:

    You can care about your country, support higher wages for your people, be for the general welfare of everyone living in your country without being a shit head towards anyone you view as "outsiders".
    @Connal as soon as people who are "usupportive of globalism or immigration" stop aligning themselves tribally with people who actively go out and beat brown people to vent their political anger, perhaps they'll stop being seen as racist. If anyone wonders why they're being called certain things, perhaps they should take a good hard look at the people they ardently defend and tribally align with.

    "Yeah, I don't support the beating of ethnic citizens" isn't good enough when you pay lip service to those same people all the time when you're not being called out on it.
    2014 Gamergate: "If you want games without hyper sexualized female characters and representation, then learn to code!"
    2023: "What's with all these massively successful games with ugly (realistic) women? How could this have happened?!"

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Butter Emails View Post
    A rather surprising revelation for the so-called nationalists who are tired of being called racist:

    You can care about your country, support higher wages for your people, be for the general welfare of everyone living in your country without being a shit head towards anyone you view as "outsiders".
    @Connal as soon as people who are "usupportive of globalism or immigration" stop aligning themselves tribally with people who actively go out and beat brown people to vent their political anger, perhaps they'll stop being seen as racist. If anyone wonders why they're being called certain things, perhaps they should take a good hard look at the people they ardently defend and tribally align with.

    "Yeah, I don't support the beating of ethnic citizens" isn't good enough when you pay lip service to those same people all the time when you're not being called out on it.
    The working class rising up narrative against a disconnected elite would at least work if they weren't voting for the fucking GOP of all parties. This is the same party that is very explicitly anti-union, against a minimum wage, universal healthcare and is currently deregulating payday loans.

  9. #9
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Give Sethrak Blizz View Post
    The working class rising up narrative against a disconnected elite would at least work if they weren't voting for the fucking GOP of all parties. This is the same party that is very explicitly anti-union, against a minimum wage, universal healthcare and is currently deregulating payday loans.
    Given that neither party really has anything but contempt, but that class of people really dislikes Trump is essentially the case for him. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Even Micheal Moore grasped that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

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    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Given that neither party really has anything but contempt, but that class of people really dislikes Trump is essentially the case for him. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Even Micheal Moore grasped that.
    Which doesn't change anything at all. They voted for a terrible person because they hate other people so grossly. They're willing to sacrifice all their wants and needs just to "stick it" to the other guy.

    They're not "winning" anything. This isn't a victory for them. The only one telling it's a victory for them are the people taking advantage of their blinding hate.

    Instead of just the Red team losing, they've now made it so both teams lose. But hey bringing everyone down to the lowest common denominator was totally a democrat thing!
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Given that neither party really has anything but contempt, but that class of people really dislikes Trump is essentially the case for him. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Even Micheal Moore grasped that.
    The disconnected elite they are lashing out against are doing more than fine with Trump. Trump with the recent tax cuts and deregulation has been a boon for the elite.

    "enemy of my enemy" XD.

  12. #12
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Give Sethrak Blizz View Post
    The disconnected elite they are lashing out against are doing more than fine with Trump. Trump with the recent tax cuts and deregulation has been a boon for the elite.

    "enemy of my enemy" XD.
    True, as we can tell, democracy is meaningless since things don't change even when the election would seem to demand it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    True, as we can tell, democracy is meaningless since things don't change even when the election would seem to demand it.
    Things change and Democrats support labor you are just an idiot hellbent on this narrative of the working class rising up against a disconnected elite and project it to Trump. Actual organized labor (unions) in the US supports democrats both in the ballot and financially.

  14. #14
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Give Sethrak Blizz View Post
    Things change and Democrats support labor you are just an idiot hellbent on this narrative of the working class rising up against a disconnected elite and project it to Trump. Actual organized labor (unions) in the US supports democrats both in the ballot and financially.
    Democrats haven't supported labor since the reign of Clinton and realistically have been looking to ditch them and cast them aside since the '70s. Organized labor has been crippled in America for decades and the Democrats regularly stab those same orgs in the back and repeat that old Clinton era line "You have nowhere else to go".

    There is no organized labor left, and your cohort would never accept its existence so stop being two-faced and save that for your next hate boner against teachers. This look is ugly on you, kind of like the art style of Steven Universe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Democrats haven't supported labor since the reign of Clinton and realistically have been looking to ditch them and cast them aside since the '70s. Organized labor has been crippled in America for decades and the Democrats regularly stab those same orgs in the back and repeat that old Clinton era line "You have nowhere else to go".

    There is no organized labor left, and your cohort would never accept its existence so stop being two-faced and save that for your next hate boner against teachers. This look is ugly on you, kind of like the art style of Steven Universe.
    Wait who supports labour unions? Democrats or Republicans?

  16. #16
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    True, as we can tell, democracy is meaningless since things don't change even when the election would seem to demand it.
    A NYC oligarch got elected... you got the change you demanded...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Wait who supports labour unions? Democrats or Republicans?
    In a land where a NYC oligarch is fighting coastal elites from Arkansas... who fucking knows... the tooth fairy?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
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  17. #17
    What world are people living in where Donald Trump, the man who inherited millions of dollars from his daddy, not part of the elite?

  18. #18
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    What world are people living in where Donald Trump, the man who inherited millions of dollars from his daddy, not part of the elite?
    He literally talks about going to NYC elite dinners with his father. When Clintons were in Arkansas, Trump was a NYC playboy. It doesn’t make any sense...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  19. #19
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Wait who supports labour unions? Democrats or Republicans?
    Nobody does. After all, what was Obama working on? The TPP/TTIP, what did Clinton sign? NAFTA. Democrats are happy to stab them in the back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  20. #20
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Nobody does. After all, what was Obama working on? The TPP/TTIP, what did Clinton sign? NAFTA. Democrats are happy to stab them in the back.
    How are trade deal stabbing unions in the back?

    6 excerpts that explain the Supreme Court’s big anti-union ruling
    https://www.vox.com/2018/6/27/175094...-kagan-dissent
    Janus v. AFSCME is a very, very big deal.
    Yeah... that NAFTA...
    Last edited by Felya; 2019-05-15 at 04:47 AM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

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