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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    Forcing belves to help horde in northrend as they otherwise wouldn't help and marched to gilneas on warchiefs. Compared to lor'themar who never helps unless forced.
    1) Forcing the Belfs to help the Horde in Northrend was as much to make her look good as them. As her former people, it reflects just as badly on her as it does on them.

    Additionally, SHE had the grudge against Arthas. Of course she wanted the whole Horde there - How else did she expect to take him down?

    2) SHE was forced to help with Gilneas.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  2. #142
    Mechagnome Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWay View Post
    Why do you think that everyone thinks or has to think like you? Just because I have to ask this, I should ask for your age but I am not that type.
    What, you assume that everyone thinks that something is shit and so do you, then it definitely has to mean that is utter shit?
    Forgive me for having a critical mind of my own, you know, like an adult.

    It's so funny that everything you say here contradicts your post before. You can't call people shallow and stupid for not liking the same thing you do and then in the very next post claim that you are a grown adult with a critical mind.

    Are you capable of providing even a single evidence to support your claim beside parroting: "real life laws don't apply to undead people" and "we don't see the entire story so wait till the end" ? If so, by all means do so. I'll be waiting.

    As you may or may not be aware, in academic circles, experts do not have to entertain ideas unless they have sufficient basis in fact. Random ideas do not even have to be disproven. While I'm not an expert in creative writing or literary history, but let's use the same paradigm here for argument's sake. I did manage to read, watch, play and listen to quite many stories, and BfA's narrative is yet to show any impressive qualities. For me, anyway.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    How about instead of pulling from a stacked deck, we talk about the most salient point of this distinction: Anduin. If the Horde truly wanted peace, then a High King Anduin is probably the best path they could ask for to start the process. Anduin would be more than willing to let bygones be bygones, after all - he is perhaps the most naive, all-loving, and all-forgiving leader figure the Alliance has ever had. Sylvanas actually had to talk around Anduin to sell her case for war to Saurfang, after all - relying on focusing on Genn to such an extent that she posits Genn could somehow force Anduin's hand (which we know from "Before the Storm" is a mistaken notion). Anduin would've done almost anything for peace - up to and including proposing madness like the Gathering in the hopes of extending a tenuous olive branch to Sylvanas' own people.

    So yes, I don't think the Alliance was a threat to the Horde prior to Teldrassil, Stormheim notwithstanding. Stormheim was the unilateral act of a desperate and angry man - emboldened by the loss of Varian at the Broken Shore on top of a chain of insults he had borne at the hands of Sylvanas specifically. And even Genn was starting to change his tune by the time "Before the Storm" had closed out. Peace was possible, and then Sylvanas closed the book on it with utter finality.
    What on earth are you even talking about? What "stacked deck"? You want to talk about Anduin? You mean the very High King under whom the attack I talked about has happened? That Anduin? The one who did nothing about it even though he thinks Genn and Rogers outright broke his orders to commit their crimes against his supposedly beloved peace? That Anduin? The Anduin who's all talk about peace but no action, under whom Alliance attacks the Horde with complete impunity? If the Horde wanted peace then High King Anduin is the single most worthless path they could have ever asked for. "Stacked deck" indeed.

    There's also the Anduin that, in order to dissuade Sylvanas from war, sent a bajillion spies to Orgrimmar and ordered them to make themselves known to Sylvanas and the Horde. I.e. he ordered a large group of Alliance to violate the sovereignty of Horde's borders, giving Sylvanas a casus belli in and on itself "in the name of peace". This Anduin is also a disaster from peace perspective.

    And how many times does it need to be repeated in one thread that Anduin explicitly told Sylvanas that the Gathering is not an attempt at peace before it sticks?


    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    1) Forcing the Belfs to help the Horde in Northrend was as much to make her look good as them. As her former people, it reflects just as badly on her as it does on them.
    Which one is it? Was it to make both of them look good or does it reflect badly on both?


    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    2) SHE was forced to help with Gilneas.
    No she wasn't. She volunteered to lead the expedition because Garrosh was acting like a retard and pointlessly throwing Forsaken into a chokepoint.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2019-05-16 at 06:07 PM.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    1) Forcing the Belfs to help the Horde in Northrend was as much to make her look good as them. As her former people, it reflects just as badly on her as it does on them.

    Additionally, SHE had the grudge against Arthas. Of course she wanted the whole Horde there - How else did she expect to take him down?

    2) SHE was forced to help with Gilneas.
    1) but she helped the horde atleast willingly.

    2) chronicles 3 stated she agreed on invading gilneas.

  5. #145
    Elemental Lord OneWay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    It's so funny that everything you say here contradicts your post before. You can't call people shallow and stupid for not liking the same thing you do and then in the very next post claim that you are a grown adult with a critical mind.

    Are you capable of providing even a single evidence to support your claim beside parroting: "real life laws don't apply to undead people" and "we don't see the entire story so wait till the end" ? If so, by all means do so. I'll be waiting.

    As you may or may not be aware, in academic circles, experts do not have to entertain ideas unless they have sufficient basis in fact. Random ideas do not even have to be disproven. While I'm not an expert in creative writing or literary history, but let's use the same paradigm here for argument's sake. I did manage to read, watch, play and listen to quite many stories, and BfA's narrative is yet to show any impressive qualities. For me, anyway.
    That is not what I have said. This is what I have said

    People don't trust Blizzard because they are stupid, shallow, unable to read and unable to comprehend different acts or events and as soon as they unable to, it is far easier to just proclaim it "It's MoP 2.0" and make parallel with old stories.
    Where did I say that people are stupid because they don't like the same thing as I do? As I said before already - stop claiming cars are same airplanes because they use same type of fuel and by all means, wait forever. You deserve that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    Blizzard: And here it is! Teldrassil burning! With Sylvanas right in front of it, all alone!
    Fans: That looks like Sylvanas destroying a Capital City.
    Blizzard: Ah ah ah, you don't know that! You don't know the context! Who knows what's happening? Wait to find out!
    Fans: Okay fine.
    Blizzard: Alright, so here's this little war going on between the Horde and Night Elves...
    Fans: Okay, so it sounds like Sylvanas is going to destroy the tree.
    Blizzard: Just wait!
    Fans: Fine...
    Blizzard: Haha! Look at that! Sylvanas burned down the tree! Aren't you surprised?!
    Fans: Are you high right now? We literally called this months ago.
    Blizzard: Hahahaha! We did such a great job!
    Aaaand.... The End, story is finished. Am I doing it right? I should start reporting people for trolling.
    "The Dark Lady chooses her champions well."

  6. #146
    Pandaren Monk roboscorcher's Avatar
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    Hmmm...I think there may be a faction upheaval after this. Maybe instead of Alliance/Horde division, it will be Light/Dark?

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    If you think her waging war against Gilneas wasn't her being forced, you're wrong. She was just making the best with a bad hand, which was Garrosh telling her to take out Gilneas. She would've been happy leaving them behind their wall to rot if she could.
    "to make somebody do something that they do not want to do or make them do it sooner than they had intended" 5:20:30 https://youtu.be/_xr7DZ8rCig see not forced.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by OneWay View Post
    Aaaand.... The End, story is finished. Am I doing it right? I should start reporting people for trolling.
    Are you implying War of Thorns is an ongoing storyline? Because that would be false. War of Thorns is also what Blizzard was referring to when they said the things @The Stormbringer was referring to. At least put some effort into your attempts at carrying Blizzard's water.

  9. #149
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    What on earth are you even talking about? What "stacked deck"? You want to talk about Anduin? You mean the very High King under whom the attack I talked about has happened? That Anduin? The one who did nothing about it even though he thinks Genn and Rogers outright broke his orders to commit their crimes against his supposedly beloved peace? That Anduin? The Anduin who's all talk about peace but no action, under whom Alliance attacks the Horde with complete impunity? If the Horde wanted peace then High King Anduin is the single most worthless path they could have ever asked for. "Stacked deck" indeed.

    There's also the Anduin that, in order to dissuade Sylvanas from war, sent a bajillion spies to Orgrimmar and ordered them to make themselves known to Sylvanas and the Horde. I.e. he ordered a large group of Alliance to violate the sovereignty of Horde's borders, giving Sylvanas a casus belli in and on itself "in the name of peace". This Anduin is also a disaster from peace perspective.

    And how many times does it need to be repeated in one thread that Anduin explicitly told Sylvanas that the Gathering is not an attempt at peace before it sticks?
    The metaphor was pretty clear - you were offering two choices without necessary context, when the answer was sort of neither. When Genn stormed off to Stormheim Varian was newly dead and Anduin newly crowned, it was a tumultuous time in which Anduin had yet to secure his own backing, much less that of his people. He certainly didn't order Genn to go off half-cocked, just the opposite really, and he chastises both Genn and Rogers in "Before the Storm" for their presumption. I'm not even claiming that Anduin has made no mistakes before the Blood War kicked off, merely that his tenure as High King of the Alliance is really the best the Horde could ask for if their minds were actually on peace.

    Anduin didn't start moving against Sylvanas in this fashion until after her actions at the Gathering, which was pretty much a gauntlet thrown down. Not to say she wasn't without cause, either; but that pretty conclusively demonstrated her aim was singularly not peace (and we know that it wasn't from her monologues as well). Sylvanas didn't need a casus belli at all, really; her argument for war was made without any kind of reference to the Alliance's spy-network. War was always her objective, as we're shown from the very first chapters of "Before the Storm."

    Also, Anduin himself belies those words with what he says about the Gathering to Calia and Alonsus. He didn't want Sylvanas to take it as a formal overture, probably knowing full well she'd respond negatively - but he still considered a soft overture nonetheless, a way to bridge the gap between the Forsaken and Humanity. Anduin's political framing aside it was still an attempt at peace.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    If you think her waging war against Gilneas wasn't her being forced, you're wrong. She was just making the best with a bad hand, which was Garrosh telling her to take out Gilneas. She would've been happy leaving them behind their wall to rot if she could.
    Chronicles literally made her eager
    Twas brillig

  11. #151
    The Lightbringer Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Which doesn't make sense, again.

    If someone covered in blood carrying a chainsaw was running at you screaming "I'M GOING TO CUT EVERYONE IN HALF"
    And another person, a trusted friend who has helped you time and time again, grabs your hand and says "I know the way out, follow me!"
    It absolutely would never make sense for you to say "Y'know, last time you said that, I broke my leg when I tripped - I think I'll test the waters with the chainsaw guy."

    Yes, even from an NPC perspective, this makes absolutely no sense.
    I legit rofl'd at this, I can't stop laughing. It is absolutely worthy sig material So true!

    More on topic, I want some of the !@#& these folks from Blizzard are smoking. Looks like some strong, really strong !@#&. And quite hilarious too, but due to different reasons.
    "The heart of the Horde" = Alliance-approved Horde

  12. #152
    Herald of the Titans Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    So Blizz now wants to make Sylvi the peace bringer? O.o
    She's going to consume a nice void lord then lazer beam the bad void lord. Saving the world. Then come get nathanos in a dream sequence and disappear.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Anduin: Hey, want peace?

    Sylvanas: No, I want peace
    /genocides people

    Anduin: Dude, wat

    Sylvanas: REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
    Piece, peace. Easily mixed up!!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    A long term peaceful solution by utterly annihilating the enemy? Given the mechanics of the game there's no way she can actually succeed at it.

    We've seen no sign of this peace on the horizon. Just Sylvanas out to crush the Alliance for good, destroying hope wherever she finds it, whether in the Horde or Alliance, and blighting the remnants for good measure so we can't use all that nice new Darkshore ore, lumber, and beachside real estate.

    I was hoping this would provide more insight to where Sylvanas's story is headed but I'm just not seeing it. I still have no idea how they can continue what we are seeing with it ending in anything other than the players who chose loyalist getting executed and having their characters deleted.
    Issue is that was her initial plan by taking teldrassil hostage. Create a wedge and force peace. But then she caught feelings and set fire to hippie land.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Heldenmaid View Post
    [/I]
    Morgan:Put yourself in the shoes of someone in the Horde. They’ve known nothing but conflict for over 20 years. They believe that Sylvanas is the person who will bring an end to this. She’s the one who can unite the Horde in ways it’s never been before. You can see how people would want that. They might think, “I would like to know peace, please. Sylvanas will get us there.” The people know what Baine and Saurfang and Thrall lead to -- it’s just the same conflict they’ve seen. Sylvanas is bringing something no one’s ever brought before. So it’s interesting to see different sides of that. She has a plan.”

    Hahaha, how about you put yourself in the shoes of the nelves, they have known nothing but humiliation by WoW devs for over a decade...

    Also, nobody ever suspected Sylvanas to do anything for the good of the Horde... seriously... what an asspull.
    Last edited by Eggroll; 2019-05-17 at 04:53 AM.

  14. #154
    You gonna see Thrall,Saurfang and Rexxar kill that bitch.

  15. #155
    Stood in the Fire Kemsa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArgusTheUnmaker View Post
    You missed the entire point of my post. The entire point of Thrall's horde was to be peaceful, different from the Old savage Horde. And, prior to Garrosh, they were succeeding. The Alliance and the Horde teamed up against a lot of shit during Classic, they fought for a bit but then teamed up again in TBC, and during Wrath, despite the growing conflict, the Horde and the Alliance were on equal terms with each-other in the end and managed to destroy the Lich King. This was the closest they ever went to towards peace, and it was working. Hell, in the WoW Comic, you see Thrall and co attempt to make peace negotiations with the Alliance.

    So, I don't see why NPC's from the cities and co would think Sylvanas far better than Thrall and the others, when in reality she's always been the shadiest Horde bitch in the seven seas.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The Burning Legion was right all along.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You could blame Sargeras for the beginning of the war since he stabbed Azeroth to begin with.
    Holy molly how much wrong can you get there.

    Nowhere near the Horde and the Alliance got "peace" Kultirans from Theramore were still attacking the Horde in vanilla, even they teamup with the Alliance to make plans to attack Razor Hills (FUCKING 15 YEAR OLD QUESTS) from that Ashenvale and Ashara questlines for the Horde its "we need wood and food to survive in Orgrimmar and the Night Elves are attacking us because its their sacred woods. The only time the Horde and the Alliance started to join forces as unity, was against the Lich king, even probably on the Sunwell Patch, and when WoTLK started the alliance and Horde made treats, peace treat, economy treat and war effort treats.

    AND GUESS WHAT after the defeat of the Lich King THE NIGHT ELVES DECIDED WE ARE NO LONGER GIVING WOOD TO THE HORDE, PEACE TREAT ITS OVER, and i am not inventing this, its on the novels and the lore on Cataclysm.

    The Forsaken for the other hands even tho they are Lordaereans, the ALLIANCE IN GENERAL never accepted them as rightfull owners of Lordaeron, thats why they seek help on the Horde and the Taurens because of the constant skirmishes from the Silver Hand, the scarlet crusade and Southern Alliance warriors(Tarren mill, Arathi and the Dwarfs of Loch Modan and Wetlands)

    BUT as my knowledge of the Horde questlines, i have never seing the Alliance saying we are looking to live along side Orcs and Trolls peacefully. Or are you specting the Orcs to live without wood, food or just returning to Draenor to let the Humans and Elves again live in peace and harmony? alone in the world.

    Thrall literally (as repeated by Garrosh) let Human Warlocks to Summon this monsters, demons, cultits that tried to bring down the Hour of Twilight, Thralls always wanted peace, but at the cost of the people of Orgrimmar starving. Mud huts its not just a meme, its how they live, up untill this day. And yes there are a lot of NPCs that feel that way, even ones on Dalaran. And we can go beyond that of every decision that Thrall took that was worse for the Horde.

    Sylvannas knows this, and she uses this "actions" and things that the alliance are going to do to the Horde, if they Win. Thats why she is not like Garrosh, she is not a warmonger, she is making the people of the cities to be at her side, probably we dont see it on the game, yet.
    Last edited by Kemsa; 2019-05-17 at 06:03 AM.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Kemsa View Post
    Holy molly how much wrong can you get there.

    Nowhere near the Horde and the Alliance got "peace" Kultirans from Theramore were still attacking the Horde in vanilla, even they teamup with the Alliance to make plans to attack Razor Hills (FUCKING 15 YEAR OLD QUESTS) from that Ashenvale and Ashara questlines for the Horde its "we need wood and food to survive in Orgrimmar and the Night Elves are attacking us because its their sacred woods. The only time the Horde and the Alliance started to join forces as unity, was against the Lich king, even probably on the Sunwell Patch, and when WoTLK started the alliance and Horde made treats, peace treat, economy treat and war effort treats.

    AND GUESS WHAT after the defeat of the Lich King THE NIGHT ELVES DECIDED WE ARE NO LONGER GIVING WOOD TO THE HORDE, PEACE TREAT ITS OVER, and i am not inventing this, its on the novels and the lore on Cataclysm.

    The Forsaken for the other hands even tho they are Lordaereans, the ALLIANCE IN GENERAL never accepted them as rightfull owners of Lordaeron, thats why they seek help on the Horde and the Taurens because of the constant skirmishes from the Silver Hand, the scarlet crusade and Southern Alliance warriors(Tarren mill, Arathi and the Dwarfs of Loch Modan and Wetlands)

    BUT as my knowledge of the Horde questlines, i have never seing the Alliance saying we are looking to live along side Orcs and Trolls peacefully. Or are you specting the Orcs to live without wood, food or just returning to Draenor to let the Humans and Elves again live in peace and harmony? alone in the world.

    Thrall literally (as repeated by Garrosh) let Human Warlocks to Summon this monsters, demons, cultits that tried to bring down the Hour of Twilight, Thralls always wanted peace, but at the cost of the people of Orgrimmar starving. Mud huts its not just a meme, its how they live, up untill this day. And yes there are a lot of NPCs that feel that way, even ones on Dalaran. And we can go beyond that of every decision that Thrall took that was worse for the Horde.

    Sylvannas knows this, and she uses this "actions" and things that the alliance are going to do to the Horde, if they Win. Thats why she is not like Garrosh, she is not a warmonger, she is making the people of the cities to be at her side, probably we dont see it on the game, yet.
    You're wrong about pretty much everything.

    1. The Northwatch forces quests aren't 15 years old, they're from Cata, after Wrathgate and Garrosh. Prior to that it was Centaur planning to hit Razor Hill.

    2. Again, the Night Elves cut off wood because of a mix of Twilight's Hammer false flagging the Horde and then Garrosh making it worse.

    3. I mean you might have a point if not for quests like this https://wow.gamepedia.com/Elixir_of_Agony

    4. All the alliance quests are about how they mind their own business until the Horde comes messing with them. Don't get me wrong I think it's bullshit but no Alliance quest addresses how they were aggressors in Bael Modan or Mulgore digsite or the guys at Tiragarde.

    5. Thrall had nothing to do with Human warlocks, what are you talking about?

    The Cataclysm caused the starving.

    What are you talking about with dalaran?

    ALSO Sylvanas LITERALLY noted she wanted to start the war in the BTS story and Novellas to get to Stormwind.

    Don't get me wrong, I think Blizz is going to Kerridan her, but don't pretend it's anything other than bad writing.
    Twas brillig

  17. #157
    Stood in the Fire Kemsa's Avatar
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    you are right they were centaurs wow, then why there were humans at the fareast?.

    And the warlocks its about how Thralls wasnt proactive against territory tresspassing.

    I also think they are going to "redeem her" in some way and probably the outrage its going to be big. But being honest a full peace between Horde and Alliance should start taking the example of the Hearthstone tavern. And probably a third faction can solve this problem too.

  18. #158
    Immortal ArgusTheUnmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kemsa View Post
    you are right they were centaurs wow, then why there were humans at the fareast?.

    And the warlocks its about how Thralls wasnt proactive against territory tresspassing.

    I also think they are going to "redeem her" in some way and probably the outrage its going to be big. But being honest a full peace between Horde and Alliance should start taking the example of the Hearthstone tavern. And probably a third faction can solve this problem too.
    Thrall allowed Jaina to move her forces up to the barrens, because of the friendship they made during the Third War. Lore wise, there was never any real tension going on during that time between them. If anything, the only reason you killed people there was so that you could just kill Alliance guys as a Hordie.

    However, during the Cataclysm, Garrosh wanted to push the Alliance back from the Barrens, because he thought that peace between the Horde and the Alliance was petty as fuck, hence why the tension went as big as it did.

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    Sylvanas shouldn't be "redeemed". She should just die. She literally finished her purpose during Wrath.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Shampro View Post
    Taking down Stormwind is starting to sound a lot more plausible, and I'm here for it. Ohhh it'd be so delicious. If that's the last thing she does before they retire her, I'll accept this dogshit of an expansion just a tiny bit more.
    That'd be greatly understated.

  20. #160
    When they said they put Christie Golden on the writing team, I was genuinely excited as despite liking Legion I thought the plot was a bit hit n miss. To see it fall so far was a genuine surprise to me. Warcraft could've been grand fantasy that rivaled even Tolkien, but decided to go for shock value and "coolness" rather than complex, grounded storytelling that you can immerse yourself in.

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