2 new interviews about Sylvanas "Shes not garrosh 2.0" - 8.3 her endgame patch?

[Dead Moose Fandango]

Sometimes, I feel like Blizzard hired Vince Russo to be head writer..

[Hitei]

We already had this discussion. Unity and peace are two different things. The factions were ultimately united against the Lich King, even though they were at war thanks to Varian's warmongering. They were united against Deathwing too (including Rogers, who is one of the most anti-Horde Alliance members), with war once again in full swing. And whether you like it or not, the letter outright mentions the Gathering isn't an attempt at peace, so you can bend over backwards all you want, but you still won't be able to change that.

Ah yes, clearly betterment of both factions meant war and Anduin definitely didn't have a bunch of ideas for how to establish peace when he touched Azerite and he definitely didn't explicitly point out there was a treaty in effect in Arathi. They were definitely at war, please believe me and ignore every single character talking about not starting war or starting war, or avoiding war or how wars shouldn't be started or should be prepared for so they can be started, they were totally at war before Ashenvale trust me, I swear.

[Lylandra]

In short, Sargeras does not have history with Alliance and Garrosh did not either. Sylvanas, oh boy, it's quite a lengthy one and it's not a nice one. I wouldn't say what Sylvanas is doing is "good" but it's surely not worse than what alliance did already and especially what they did to her. If you have fanatical orders designed to purge undeads as if they are all the same monsters, what is excuse for that? "Oh well, you know, they are dead, we are alive. We have more rights"? As I said, this is not 2019, it's a fantasy world and you have to look through prism that "everything is possible".

Except that the Scarlet Crusade were not Alliance, same as the Argent Crusade (which totally accepts undead as long as they're anti scourge). Oh and the founders of the Crusade were, in fact, racist towards all non-humans.

Besides that, Sylvanas had once been part of the Alliance, she wasn't present during the "racist Garithos" debacle that made her former people suffer, yet she was the one who slew him. And after that? Nothing. Instead it had been her, since vanilla, who sought to increase the land of the Forsaken despite knowing that if they die, they're dead.

[Aucald]

"Alliance attacks Forsaken fleet and if they aimed better they could have killed the Warchief of the Horde. Which they did over nothing but their delusions about Broken Shore and Genn's personal biases. In the middle of demon-apocalypse, where such attacks only made things easier for Sargeras to destroy the world." "Alliance was never a threat to the Hode prior to Teldrassil." Pick one.

How about instead of pulling from a stacked deck, we talk about the most salient point of this distinction: Anduin. If the Horde truly wanted peace, then a High King Anduin is probably the best path they could ask for to start the process. Anduin would be more than willing to let bygones be bygones, after all - he is perhaps the most naive, all-loving, and all-forgiving leader figure the Alliance has ever had. Sylvanas actually had to talk around Anduin to sell her case for war to Saurfang, after all - relying on focusing on Genn to such an extent that she posits Genn could somehow force Anduin's hand (which we know from "Before the Storm" is a mistaken notion). Anduin would've done almost anything for peace - up to and including proposing madness like the Gathering in the hopes of extending a tenuous olive branch to Sylvanas' own people.

So yes, I don't think the Alliance was a threat to the Horde prior to Teldrassil, Stormheim notwithstanding. Stormheim was the unilateral act of a desperate and angry man - emboldened by the loss of Varian at the Broken Shore on top of a chain of insults he had borne at the hands of Sylvanas specifically. And even Genn was starting to change his tune by the time "Before the Storm" had closed out. Peace was possible, and then Sylvanas closed the book on it with utter finality.

[formerShandalay]

Blizzard specifically said there are similarities and parallels to Garrosh. And how would there not be. The underlying reasons for the war are different, but the strategy is the same and just because two tyrants have different ideologies, they are still tyrants and follow the same behavioural patterns. If you look at the short story 'The Scroll' the prophesied future for the Horde conquering the world is still very much the same, and how could it not be. If you want to conquer Stormwind, no matter for which reason, be that orc supremacy or making the world undead, you have to have a strategy and that strategy includes getting rid of the Nightelves and Teldrassil on Kalimdor first. Teldrassil burning before Stormwind is conquered is already a prophecy, which kind of means it is a probable chain of events.
We are all pawns in a bigger game and until we (or rather the people making the actual decisions in the game) learn, we are going to follow the same patterns again and again.
I think what Blizzard wanted to say with 'not Garrosh' is more that Sylvanas won't make the same mistakes and her plans work better. Which makes me hope that we actually get a Stormwind raid and she brings about at least some semblance of 'evil won this time' without making the world as a whole explode.

[froschhure]

"Okay, Sylvanas van der Linde. " ahaha

[Thelxi]

Maybe she is planning to raid SW, and then when the city surrenders she kills everyone anyway.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Maybe she is planning to raid SW, and then when the city surrenders she kills everyone anyway.

Oh no she has AirPods In she can’t hear the bells, or “she kinda forgot the city surrendered”

[Stardrift]

Except, here's the issue, the Alliance was never a threat prior to Teldrassi's burning. Hell, the Alliance wanted to make peace negotiations FIRST!

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Don't want to sound rude or anything, but "You don't understand Sylvanas" is quite possibly the most generic excuse for terrorism I've ever seen.

Sargeras destroying the Universe and 99% of the Legion following him willingly? That's okay, because he has good INTENTIONS, and you don't understand him.

Garrosh committing mass genocide? You don't understand him, his intentions are good.

Just because your intentions may be good, that doesn't mean you ARE good. Especially when it comes to actions.

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We're in 8.2 right now, and everything about Sylvanas is leading up to a MoP 2.0.

If 8.3 is the time where Sylvanas' true "motives" are revealed, then that is the most pathetic thing ever.

You're crying about a half finished story lol

We don't even know motives yet. Part of you just wants to bitch and moan for the sake of it.

[The Stormbringer]

I think that people are too blind and judge too much upfront for a story that is not finished. That is what is happening with Teldrassil and that is what you call bullshit. I will say that story is not yet finished. Remember, we are not living warcraft life, we are following story...

Blizzard: And here it is! Teldrassil burning! With Sylvanas right in front of it, all alone!
Fans: That looks like Sylvanas destroying a Capital City.
Blizzard: Ah ah ah, you don't know that! You don't know the context! Who knows what's happening? Wait to find out!
Fans: Okay fine.
Blizzard: Alright, so here's this little war going on between the Horde and Night Elves...
Fans: Okay, so it sounds like Sylvanas is going to destroy the tree.
Blizzard: Just wait!
Fans: Fine...
Blizzard: Haha! Look at that! Sylvanas burned down the tree! Aren't you surprised?!
Fans: Are you high right now? We literally called this months ago.
Blizzard: Hahahaha! We did such a great job!

[matrix123mko]

Final patch, right before "Battle of Orgrimmar" you receive a letter from Sylvanas for being loyal this entire time

"Dear loyal Champion, gonna need you to play along with the rebels when they attack. To keep up appearances, you may even have to kill Nathanos and possibly me"

"And don't forget about the Val'kyr. They won't believe in my death if they don't see all my Val'kyr dying. This is indeed great sacrifice but it is required to accomplish out plans. Don't fail me. For the Horde!"

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Blizzard: And here it is! Teldrassil burning! With Sylvanas right in front of it, all alone!
Fans: That looks like Sylvanas destroying a Capital City.
Blizzard: Ah ah ah, you don't know that! You don't know the context! Who knows what's happening? Wait to find out!
Fans: Okay fine.
Blizzard: Alright, so here's this little war going on between the Horde and Night Elves...
Fans: Okay, so it sounds like Sylvanas is going to destroy the tree.
Blizzard: Just wait!
Fans: Fine...
Blizzard: Haha! Look at that! Sylvanas burned down the tree! Aren't you surprised?!
Fans: Are you high right now? We literally called this months ago.
Blizzard: Hahahaha! We did such a great job!

Anduin gets leaked.
Blizzard: There is some speculation about next HotS hero but there are some more releases before what you expect.
Players: So no Anduin?
Blizzard: Anduin is next HotS hero!

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Oh no she has AirPods In she can’t hear the bells, or “she kinda forgot the city surrendered”

The bells are signal to the teacher that he can finish the siege.

[Terongor]

I'm sure she 'helped' us to our early graves plenty of times, but this is entirely false.

Sylvanas has helped herself plenty of times. Her contributions to the Horde are questionable at best.

Forcing belves to help horde in northrend as they otherwise wouldn't help and marched to gilneas on warchiefs. Compared to lor'themar who never helps unless forced.

[The Stormbringer]

Forcing belves to help horde in northrend as they otherwise wouldn't help and marched to gilneas on warchiefs. Compared to lor'themar who never helps unless forced.

If you think her waging war against Gilneas wasn't her being forced, you're wrong. She was just making the best with a bad hand, which was Garrosh telling her to take out Gilneas. She would've been happy leaving them behind their wall to rot if she could.

[Wangming]

Why do you think that everyone thinks or has to think like you? Just because I have to ask this, I should ask for your age but I am not that type.
What, you assume that everyone thinks that something is shit and so do you, then it definitely has to mean that is utter shit?
Forgive me for having a critical mind of my own, you know, like an adult.

It's so funny that everything you say here contradicts your post before. You can't call people shallow and stupid for not liking the same thing you do and then in the very next post claim that you are a grown adult with a critical mind.

Are you capable of providing even a single evidence to support your claim beside parroting: "real life laws don't apply to undead people" and "we don't see the entire story so wait till the end" ? If so, by all means do so. I'll be waiting.

As you may or may not be aware, in academic circles, experts do not have to entertain ideas unless they have sufficient basis in fact. Random ideas do not even have to be disproven. While I'm not an expert in creative writing or literary history, but let's use the same paradigm here for argument's sake. I did manage to read, watch, play and listen to quite many stories, and BfA's narrative is yet to show any impressive qualities. For me, anyway.

[Mehrunes]

How about instead of pulling from a stacked deck, we talk about the most salient point of this distinction: Anduin. If the Horde truly wanted peace, then a High King Anduin is probably the best path they could ask for to start the process. Anduin would be more than willing to let bygones be bygones, after all - he is perhaps the most naive, all-loving, and all-forgiving leader figure the Alliance has ever had. Sylvanas actually had to talk around Anduin to sell her case for war to Saurfang, after all - relying on focusing on Genn to such an extent that she posits Genn could somehow force Anduin's hand (which we know from "Before the Storm" is a mistaken notion). Anduin would've done almost anything for peace - up to and including proposing madness like the Gathering in the hopes of extending a tenuous olive branch to Sylvanas' own people.

So yes, I don't think the Alliance was a threat to the Horde prior to Teldrassil, Stormheim notwithstanding. Stormheim was the unilateral act of a desperate and angry man - emboldened by the loss of Varian at the Broken Shore on top of a chain of insults he had borne at the hands of Sylvanas specifically. And even Genn was starting to change his tune by the time "Before the Storm" had closed out. Peace was possible, and then Sylvanas closed the book on it with utter finality.

What on earth are you even talking about? What "stacked deck"? You want to talk about Anduin? You mean the very High King under whom the attack I talked about has happened? That Anduin? The one who did nothing about it even though he thinks Genn and Rogers outright broke his orders to commit their crimes against his supposedly beloved peace? That Anduin? The Anduin who's all talk about peace but no action, under whom Alliance attacks the Horde with complete impunity? If the Horde wanted peace then High King Anduin is the single most worthless path they could have ever asked for. "Stacked deck" indeed.

There's also the Anduin that, in order to dissuade Sylvanas from war, sent a bajillion spies to Orgrimmar and ordered them to make themselves known to Sylvanas and the Horde. I.e. he ordered a large group of Alliance to violate the sovereignty of Horde's borders, giving Sylvanas a casus belli in and on itself "in the name of peace". This Anduin is also a disaster from peace perspective.

And how many times does it need to be repeated in one thread that Anduin explicitly told Sylvanas that the Gathering is not an attempt at peace before it sticks?

1) Forcing the Belfs to help the Horde in Northrend was as much to make her look good as them. As her former people, it reflects just as badly on her as it does on them.

Which one is it? Was it to make both of them look good or does it reflect badly on both?

2) SHE was forced to help with Gilneas.

No she wasn't. She volunteered to lead the expedition because Garrosh was acting like a retard and pointlessly throwing Forsaken into a chokepoint.

[Terongor]

1) Forcing the Belfs to help the Horde in Northrend was as much to make her look good as them. As her former people, it reflects just as badly on her as it does on them.

Additionally, SHE had the grudge against Arthas. Of course she wanted the whole Horde there - How else did she expect to take him down?

2) SHE was forced to help with Gilneas.

1) but she helped the horde atleast willingly.

2) chronicles 3 stated she agreed on invading gilneas.

[roboscorcher]

Hmmm...I think there may be a faction upheaval after this. Maybe instead of Alliance/Horde division, it will be Light/Dark?

[Terongor]

If you think her waging war against Gilneas wasn't her being forced, you're wrong. She was just making the best with a bad hand, which was Garrosh telling her to take out Gilneas. She would've been happy leaving them behind their wall to rot if she could.

"to make somebody do something that they do not want to do or make them do it sooner than they had intended" 5:20:30 https://youtu.be/_xr7DZ8rCig see not forced.

[Mehrunes]

Aaaand.... The End, story is finished. Am I doing it right? I should start reporting people for trolling.

Are you implying War of Thorns is an ongoing storyline? Because that would be false. War of Thorns is also what Blizzard was referring to when they said the things @The Stormbringer was referring to. At least put some effort into your attempts at carrying Blizzard's water.

[Aucald]

What on earth are you even talking about? What "stacked deck"? You want to talk about Anduin? You mean the very High King under whom the attack I talked about has happened? That Anduin? The one who did nothing about it even though he thinks Genn and Rogers outright broke his orders to commit their crimes against his supposedly beloved peace? That Anduin? The Anduin who's all talk about peace but no action, under whom Alliance attacks the Horde with complete impunity? If the Horde wanted peace then High King Anduin is the single most worthless path they could have ever asked for. "Stacked deck" indeed.

There's also the Anduin that, in order to dissuade Sylvanas from war, sent a bajillion spies to Orgrimmar and ordered them to make themselves known to Sylvanas and the Horde. I.e. he ordered a large group of Alliance to violate the sovereignty of Horde's borders, giving Sylvanas a casus belli in and on itself "in the name of peace". This Anduin is also a disaster from peace perspective.

And how many times does it need to be repeated in one thread that Anduin explicitly told Sylvanas that the Gathering is not an attempt at peace before it sticks?

The metaphor was pretty clear - you were offering two choices without necessary context, when the answer was sort of neither. When Genn stormed off to Stormheim Varian was newly dead and Anduin newly crowned, it was a tumultuous time in which Anduin had yet to secure his own backing, much less that of his people. He certainly didn't order Genn to go off half-cocked, just the opposite really, and he chastises both Genn and Rogers in "Before the Storm" for their presumption. I'm not even claiming that Anduin has made no mistakes before the Blood War kicked off, merely that his tenure as High King of the Alliance is really the best the Horde could ask for if their minds were actually on peace.

Anduin didn't start moving against Sylvanas in this fashion until after her actions at the Gathering, which was pretty much a gauntlet thrown down. Not to say she wasn't without cause, either; but that pretty conclusively demonstrated her aim was singularly not peace (and we know that it wasn't from her monologues as well). Sylvanas didn't need a casus belli at all, really; her argument for war was made without any kind of reference to the Alliance's spy-network. War was always her objective, as we're shown from the very first chapters of "Before the Storm."

Also, Anduin himself belies those words with what he says about the Gathering to Calia and Alonsus. He didn't want Sylvanas to take it as a formal overture, probably knowing full well she'd respond negatively - but he still considered a soft overture nonetheless, a way to bridge the gap between the Forsaken and Humanity. Anduin's political framing aside it was still an attempt at peace.