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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    2. Again, the Night Elves cut off wood because of a mix of Twilight's Hammer false flagging the Horde and then Garrosh making it worse.
    No, they didn't. They broke it over Wrathgate. Even though the peace were already trying to make peace. Which they needed to do because previously Alliance declared war over Wrathgate. Because Night Elves are schizophrenic like that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    3. I mean you might have a point if not for quests like this https://wow.gamepedia.com/Elixir_of_Agony
    Happens long after the initial hostilities in Hillsbrad broke out. And since Anduin had to apologize to Sylvanas for the treatment of Forsaken envoys sent to Alliance, the question who initiated those hostilities leans a bit towards the Alliance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    4. All the alliance quests are about how they mind their own business until the Horde comes messing with them. Don't get me wrong I think it's bullshit but no Alliance quest addresses how they were aggressors in Bael Modan or Mulgore digsite or the guys at Tiragarde.
    And aside from Ashenvale, where Horde is the one initiating things, all Horde quests are about situations were the aggressor isn't known for sure, or ones where the aggressor is the Alliance (and those cases outnumber the Horde starting shit in Ashenvale).


    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    The Cataclysm caused the starving.
    No it didn't. Thrall deliberately settling Orcs in a barren shithole caused it. The situation of the Orcs was disheartening even in Garrosh's short story and it takes place prior to Cataclysm.


    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    ALSO Sylvanas LITERALLY noted she wanted to start the war in the BTS story and Novellas to get to Stormwind.
    She also noted there would be no war if Varian was still in charge of the Alliance, rather than his hypocritical spawn.


    Quote Originally Posted by ArgusTheUnmaker View Post
    Thrall allowed Jaina to move her forces up to the barrens, because of the friendship they made during the Third War. Lore wise, there was never any real tension going on during that time between them. If anything, the only reason you killed people there was so that you could just kill Alliance guys as a Hordie.
    Aside from Theramore's soldiers killing Horde members in Dustwallow or capturing them in Dustwallow and Northwatch.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The metaphor was pretty clear - you were offering two choices without necessary context, when the answer was sort of neither. When Genn stormed off to Stormheim Varian was newly dead and Anduin newly crowned, it was a tumultuous time in which Anduin had yet to secure his own backing, much less that of his people. He certainly didn't order Genn to go off half-cocked, just the opposite really, and he chastises both Genn and Rogers in "Before the Storm" for their presumption. I'm not even claiming that Anduin has made no mistakes before the Blood War kicked off, merely that his tenure as High King of the Alliance is really the best the Horde could ask for if their minds were actually on peace.
    The metaphor was pretty awful, because as I just pointed out, your context of muh Anduin changes nothing. And deify Anduin's glorious "peace" of Alliance attacking the Horde with complete impunity all you want, but Sylvanas herself said in one of her internal monologues that there'd be no war if Varian was still in charge of the Alliance, flat out proving you wrong on how Anduin is the best bet for anything. Because unlike the hypocritical whelp Anduin, Varian actually managed his people and didn't let them walk all over him with no repercussions. Because Anduin giving Genn and Rogers a stern talking is no repercussions. It's not even a slap on the wrist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Anduin didn't start moving against Sylvanas in this fashion until after her actions at the Gathering, which was pretty much a gauntlet thrown down. Not to say she wasn't without cause, either; but that pretty conclusively demonstrated her aim was singularly not peace (and we know that it wasn't from her monologues as well). Sylvanas didn't need a casus belli at all, really; her argument for war was made without any kind of reference to the Alliance's spy-network. War was always her objective, as we're shown from the very first chapters of "Before the Storm."
    What gauntlet throwdown? Sylvanas explicitly made no moves against the Alliance during the Gathering and as Anduin himself acknowledged, the whole situation made Alliance look bad, not Sylvanas. Not that he'd be justified in violating Horde territory even if things were shifted around. And as pointed above, she wanted war only because the leadership of the Alliance changed from actually respectable Varian to thefailure that is Anduin.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Also, Anduin himself belies those words with what he says about the Gathering to Calia and Alonsus. He didn't want Sylvanas to take it as a formal overture, probably knowing full well she'd respond negatively - but he still considered a soft overture nonetheless, a way to bridge the gap between the Forsaken and Humanity. Anduin's political framing aside it was still an attempt at peace.
    Anduin may justify his idiocy to himself and his kowtowing lackeys in whatever way he wants. Doesn't change the fact that explicitly writing "lel, don't mistake my intentions for an attempt at peace" is a complete diplomatic faux pas at the very least. If he didn't want to spook Sylvanas, all he needed to do was not mention attempts at peace in any context whatsoever. And you need to bend over backwards and then inwards to frame something that's explicitly not an attempt at peace into an attempt at peace.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  2. #162
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The metaphor was pretty awful, because as I just pointed out, your context of muh Anduin changes nothing. And deify Anduin's glorious "peace" of Alliance attacking the Horde with complete impunity all you want, but Sylvanas herself said in one of her internal monologues that there'd be no war if Varian was still in charge of the Alliance, flat out proving you wrong on how Anduin is the best bet for anything. Because unlike the hypocritical whelp Anduin, Varian actually managed his people and didn't let them walk all over him with no repercussions. Because Anduin giving Genn and Rogers a stern talking is no repercussions. It's not even a slap on the wrist.
    I don't think you understood it but it is also somewhat beside the point - I sometimes forget to consider my audience, I suppose. Your reliance on hyperbole makes it difficult to actually have a reasoned discussion, screeching "muh Anduin" as a form of riposte doesn't lend itself to a rational response, much less a coherent one. Sylvanas talking about how there wouldn't be a war if Varian were still in High King strikes me as more about her unwillingness to attack a prepared and wary opponent as opposed to one whose naivete and peace-loving nature makes them unprepared for the kind of war she plans to perpetrate. As for Genn and Rogers' punishment, I agree it was rather ineffectual, but that is also in keeping with Anduin's personality and his stated naivete - and it still stands to show that they acted without his sanction or else they wouldn't have even got that dressing down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    What gauntlet throwdown? Sylvanas explicitly made no moves against the Alliance during the Gathering and as Anduin himself acknowledged, the whole situation made Alliance look bad, not Sylvanas. Not that he'd be justified in violating Horde territory even if things were shifted around. And as pointed above, she wanted war only because the leadership of the Alliance changed from actually respectable Varian to thefailure that is Anduin.
    Killing the Desolate Council, and especially Elsie Benton, with whom Anduin had some level of rapport and even friendliness toward despite her being Forsaken and him being Human. You've read "Before the Storm," yes? Anduin doesn't react positively to Sylvanas' actions at the Gathering at all, and they conclude in his mind that Sylvanas cannot be reasoned with and will never be part of a peace process between the Horde and Alliance. Sylvanas avoided dirtying her hand at the Gathering, sure, but she's pretty far from coming away smelling like a rose. It's not a coincidence that Sylvanas just so happens to liquidate a coalition in her own ranks that subtly opposed her, all under the guise of killing "traitors" (most of whom were not traitors at all as Nathanos helpfully points out).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Anduin may justify his idiocy to himself and his kowtowing lackeys in whatever way he wants. Doesn't change the fact that explicitly writing "lel, don't mistake my intentions for an attempt at peace" is a complete diplomatic faux pas at the very least. If he didn't want to spook Sylvanas, all he needed to do was not mention attempts at peace in any context whatsoever. And you need to bend over backwards and then inwards to frame something that's explicitly not an attempt at peace into an attempt at peace.
    That implies that his missive somehow "spooked" Sylvanas, which I heartily doubt (and would be shocked if you didn't). He wasn't extending an olive branch to Sylvanas, he was extending one to her people - a tactic commonly called outreach. If you can sway a nation's people to your cause, their leader may well find themselves forced to follow. It doesn't work because he doesn't fully understand Sylvanas, as well as what she's capable of, but it's an attempt all the same.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - The Player, "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead"

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Bright-Flower View Post
    What is this horse**** about Sylvans bringing something new?

    She's brought MORE WAR with the SAME ENEMY the horde has fought so many times. Sylvanas has brought NOTHING NEW. Oh sure, maybe if the war of thorns had gone according to play she might have put the horde in a position to negotiate peace from a position of power or something, but all she's actually brought is MORE OF THE SAME right after the Legion invasion.

    Whether you support Sylvanas or not I have a hard time seeing what 'new' approach she's brought.

    Also, RIP night elves. I'm not even mad at this point. I'm just numb to it.
    They are literally saying she will end war by making every member of the Alliance dead.

  4. #164
    Give me WC3:R, Blizz! The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Chronicles literally made her eager
    I'm going to take this out of context, because it amuses me.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    They are literally saying she will end war by making every member of the Alliance dead.
    Which isn't 'new' Garrosh also started a similar war with the Alliance, and Sylvanas' plans clearly haven't been working out very well either.

    And if one has a 'ends justify the means' approach, ie 'wiping out the alliance is justified because then we can live in peace' that requires the ends sought to actually be achieved, if Sylvanas fails in meeting those ends then her means were not justified by them. Not to mention that while yes they have fought the Alliance a lot, there has been MORE fighting with third party threats than the Alliance all in all. And we're not even making it to the end of BFA before both factions end up working together against Azshara. Which further undermines this sort of point.
    Last edited by Bright-Flower; 2019-05-17 at 03:58 PM.

  6. #166
    Immortal Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright-Flower View Post
    Which isn't 'new' Garrosh also started a similar war with the Alliance, and Sylvanas' plans clearly haven't been working out very well either.
    but Garrosh didn't have boobs

  7. #167
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    but Garrosh didn't have boobs
    Bam, that means this xpac isn't MoP 2.0!



    Expectations subverted successfully.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  8. #168
    Immortal Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    Bam, that means this xpac isn't MoP 2.0!



    Expectations subverted successfully.
    saurfang also is not a troll

    don't know how anyone could think its mop2.0

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    No, they didn't. They broke it over Wrathgate. Even though the peace were already trying to make peace. Which they needed to do because previously Alliance declared war over Wrathgate. Because Night Elves are schizophrenic like that.
    I mean either way, the destruction of peace was Sylvana's fault for letting Wrathgate happen and not having a firmer hand on her pet dreadlord and the Forsaken.
    Twas brillig

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    I mean either way, the destruction of peace was Sylvana's fault for letting Wrathgate happen and not having a firmer hand on her pet dreadlord and the Forsaken.
    What do you mean "either way"? Your previous way didn't even mention Sylvanas. And Varian said nothing about Wrathgate when he declared war on the Horde. Hell, Chronicle v3 outright says he didn't give a shit whether Sylvanas was in on Wrathgate or not at that point. So the destruction is on him being a warmongering unhinged retard who couldn't deal with the fact that Horde recaptured Undercity before he managed to steal it from them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    What do you mean "either way"? Your previous way didn't even mention Sylvanas. And Varian said nothing about Wrathgate when he declared war on the Horde. Hell, Chronicle v3 outright says he didn't give a shit whether Sylvanas was in on Wrathgate or not at that point. So the destruction is on him being a warmongering unhinged retard who couldn't deal with the fact that Horde recaptured Undercity before he managed to steal it from them.
    Dial back the edge man, he just fought his way through the Apothecarium, all the Forsaken's most fucked up shit was on display and their lack of control on their pet dreadlord, complicit or not, got his best friend and father figure killed.

    I don't like Varian, his comic was stupid, but don't try and make the declaration of war somehow a bad idea when the writers made the horde fuck up in a way that literally killed his troops and friend/mentor.
    Twas brillig

  12. #172
    Immortal ArgusTheUnmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Budong View Post
    The realm is rotten. Fire cleanses the land and prepares it for rebirth. Daenerys understood this, maybe Sylvanas does too.
    Sargeras also understood this...

    That doesn't make him right.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Dial back the edge man, he just fought his way through the Apothecarium, all the Forsaken's most fucked up shit was on display and their lack of control on their pet dreadlord, complicit or not, got his best friend and father figure killed.
    Except he focuses his tirade almost entirety on Orcs. The only reference to Forsaken is when he calls Sylvanas a witch.


    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    I don't like Varian, his comic was stupid, but don't try and make the declaration of war somehow a bad idea when the writers made the horde fuck up in a way that literally killed his troops and friend/mentor.
    Yeah, because Alliance internal bullshit never backfired on the Horde. Look at all the Horde's declaration of war over that. Oh, wait, there's zero of them because the Horde isn't an unhinged piece of shit with the IQ below room temperature and they are capable of comprehending that Alliance's rebels are explicitly not Alliance.

    And whether it was bad idea or not doesn't change the fact that he is the one who declared war and consequently the one who destroyed the peace.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  14. #174
    They're going to pull a Kerrigan, and Sylvannas will turn into the full on Loa/God/Titan of Death and lead Bwonsamdi/LK/Helya/all undead against N'Zoth and that's how we'll beat him, because only mindless undead can't be controlled by him but all of the heroes/living creatures will be. That's how they'll "redeem" her so that everyone won't be calling for her head afterwards without making her a raid boss.

    It's literally the only twist I can possibly forsee that Blizzard could justify as "it's totally not Garrosh 2.0" causing everyone in the non-Sylvannas camp to quit. It's not "Garrosh 2.0" because they're also throwing in Bolvar/LK 2.0, Kerrigan 2.0, and Illidan 3.0.

    Think about it, that would explain her dealing with Helya (best way to get out of being doomed to purgatory is become an Aspect of Death?), why N'Zoth and the void is so afraid of her (because they know a true god of death with mindless minions they can't control is the only thing that can truly beat them), and why LK/Bwonsamdi and the rest don't know who told Vol'jin to make her the leader (there's some Titan/Aspect/God of Death that they derive their powers from). It'll save her without really redeeming her, allow her to still be the dark, gothic dream all the fanboys worship, and not result in her becoming a raid boss.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Except he focuses his tirade almost entirety on Orcs. The only reference to Forsaken is when he calls Sylvanas a witch.




    Yeah, because Alliance internal bullshit never backfired on the Horde. Look at all the Horde's declaration of war over that. Oh, wait, there's zero of them because the Horde isn't an unhinged piece of shit with the IQ below room temperature and they are capable of comprehending that Alliance's rebels are explicitly not Alliance.

    And whether it was bad idea or not doesn't change the fact that he is the one who declared war and consequently the one who destroyed the peace.
    1. Thrall's in charge, her failures are his failures.


    2. Dude, you're just ranting there. Blizz barely writes the alliance doing anything wrong so its internal stuff is almost universally 'separate' from the alliance proper.

    "the guy who declared war is the bad one" is a dumb technicality imo.

    You have a good day Mehrunes, but cool off man.
    Twas brillig

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by ArgusTheUnmaker View Post
    Sargeras also understood this...

    That doesn't make him right.
    Maybe it did.

  17. #177
    Immortal ArgusTheUnmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Budong View Post
    Maybe it did.
    ...

    You do have a point there...

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Are you implying War of Thorns is an ongoing storyline? Because that would be false. War of Thorns is also what Blizzard was referring to when they said the things @The Stormbringer was referring to. At least put some effort into your attempts at carrying Blizzard's water.
    I am implying that BFA is ongoing storyline and that is far from false. As I said it in other posts, it would take only for someone task Sylvanas if burning teldrassil is way to end conflict and she just would have to reply "No, because it wasn't me who gave that order as I wasn't there" and it would filp peoples mind. This is a possibility that you are not even considering because "whaaaah War of Thorns, unable to see past that waaaah".

  19. #179
    Haha, just imagine them sitting in their little writers room:
    "We totally subverted their expectations by not even hinting at whats really happening AT ALL. It must be so fun to follow the story, we are such geniuses!"
    D&D are relieved they arent the worst fantasy writers 2019 anymore.

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