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  1. #101
    Warchief Amaterasu65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLOCKWERK View Post
    Every cinematic we have gotten so far would indicate otherwise.
    Otherwise of what? Just because Saurfang conveniently forgot his own part during the War of the Thorns doesn't mean he is an innocent misguided little butterfly and Sylvanas is the sole perpetrator. They are all to be held accountable. That said, he at least understood his filth and now sides with the "boring" Alliance. Doesn't erase his past zugzugness til that point tho.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    The title is about Saurfang.
    The thumbnail is Saurfang.

    The major plot of the cinematic is to explain Saurfang's actions.

    I mean, if they want to argue Saurfang isn't Horde, that's another debate all together.

    But whether or not Saurfang is Horde or not, it's still a Saurfang cinematic.
    This guy gets it.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldielocks View Post
    They’ll come when the Alliance does something interesting
    Uh Oh then.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    I'm not really sure what's there to be smug about when the Alliance can't defeat the Horde even under those circumstances.
    The Alliance could have finished the Horde in MoP - just as it could have pushed hard after BoD - they don't because they aren't monsters and unlike the Horde care about collateral and civilian life.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'll always love how the community on this forum is so entrenched with the 13 year old edgelord mindset that not being flat out evil makes the Alliance boring. I like the Alliance because they're relatable, and the faction doesn't change identity every 2 years - plus I like good overcoming evil theme, it's generic but it doesn't have to be boring, and it's not in WoW. The Avengers are morally good - they're entertaining films. People rooted for the fellowship in LotR, just as people wanted Jon Snow to win in GoT. It's just this community that really doesn't seem to like lawful/ moral goodness.

    Now, there's nothing wrong with rooting for the bad guys - some people wanna play the jedi and some wanna play the sith - that's okay. But at least acknowledge you're the evil, non-justified team and we can move on with our lives.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Evaddon View Post
    Its from Anduin's perspective, no it does not, if you feel that way thats on you.
    What? I mean this is clearly, clearly a Saurfang / horde cinematic

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Amaterasu65 View Post
    When even the thumbnail is Saurfang in that so called Alliance cinematic, yiiiiikes. Full Alliance amirite?
    When the content of that cinematic is about Anduin and Saurfang cooperating in facilitating his escape AND Saurfang's confession on how he deliberately did not kill Anduin because he hoped Anduin would have stopped the Warchief of the Horde for him, yes? Valeera is Alliance too, despite being a Blood Elf.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    The title is about Saurfang.
    The thumbnail is Saurfang.

    The major plot of the cinematic is to explain Saurfang's actions.

    I mean, if they want to argue Saurfang isn't Horde, that's another debate all together.

    But whether or not Saurfang is Horde or not, it's still a Saurfang cinematic.
    And since the cinematic was precisely about how Saurfang became an Alliance asset, with the very High King of the Alliance letting him free so that he'd take down the Warchief of the Horde for him and how Saurfang himself decided to aid the Alliance in hopes Alliance defeats the Warchief of the Horde for him instead, that is exactly why it's an Alliance cinematic (well, that and Anduin having even more spotlight in it than Saurfang). It's also a Saurfang cinematic. One does not exclude the other.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  6. #106
    Warchief Amaterasu65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    When the content of that cinematic is about Anduin and Saurfang cooperating in facilitating his escape AND Saurfang's confession on how he deliberately did not kill Anduin because he hoped Anduin would have stopped the Warchief of the Horde for him, yes? Valeera is Alliance too, despite being a Blood Elf.
    Valeera is not a Blood Elf. Nice bait.

    The content of the cinematic serves the development of Saurfang's rebellion. It's not about Anduin or the Alliance. It's about Saurfang, the Horde, his lost honor and how he's gonna save it. It's not about the Alliance, not about Tyrande, not about the Night Elves and their lost home. When they give a proper Alliance cinematic that focuses on the Alliance, come back.

    Edit, nvm confused with vereesa. Valeera is a BE with no specific faction allegiances. She's a friend of Alliance chars tho.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    And since the cinematic was precisely about how Saurfang became an Alliance asset, with the very High King of the Alliance letting him free so that he'd take down the Warchief of the Horde for him and how Saurfang himself decided to aid the Alliance in hopes Alliance defeats the Warchief of the Horde for him instead, that is exactly why it's an Alliance cinematic (well, that and Anduin having even more spotlight in it than Saurfang). It's also a Saurfang cinematic. One does not exclude the other.
    I'd think you'd strain your back with that much reaching.

    There is no "Saurfang decided to help the Alliance", or else Saurfang would have been in Stormwind Keep planning with Anduin, and they would have helped him go get Thrall which would have been a far more logical and safer bet than hoping Saurfang can find him before Sylvanas did.

    It's Anduin didn't see Saurfang as a threat, nor was there a reason to keep him prisoner since he wasn't returning to Sylvanas nor did Sylvanas want him back.

    It's a Saurfang cinematic through and through. The topic at hand was the Horde. The entire plot of it was about the Horde.

    You might not like Saurfang as a Horde character but I hate to break it to you, it's obvious Saurfang is what Blizzard wants the Horde to be.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    The Alliance could have finished the Horde in MoP - just as it could have pushed hard after BoD - they don't because they aren't monsters and unlike the Horde care about collateral and civilian life.
    They could have finished the Horde in MoP? How, exactly? Without Malfurion in the Underhold, the Horde leaders outpowered the Alliance leaders present. If the Alliance wanted to start shit they'd have their leadership destroyed, making the rest of it easy picking (you know, especially in light of how they were having their ass handed to them throughout the war until that point).

    And in BoD they simply acted in character, waging war like complete retards. Which is precisely why they are incapable of winning. That's on top of their colossal plot armor, without which they should have all died in Lordaeron as per the very balance of power of the factions prior to BfA Blizzard itself established in the novels leading to the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  9. #109
    Alliance gets no lore so no movie.....

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    They could have finished the Horde in MoP? How, exactly? Without Malfurion in the Underhold, the Horde leaders outpowered the Alliance leaders present. If the Alliance wanted to start shit they'd have their leadership destroyed, making the rest of it easy picking (you know, especially in light of how they were having their ass handed to them throughout the war until that point).
    Thrall got his butt served to him twice by Garrosh, without even being empowered by Y'shaarj yet. In terms of physical prowess at least. "Killing" Garrosh didn't change that the elements were twisted in the area still. Meanwhile Varian was able to hold his own against Garrosh.

    Gallywix is useless without a mech and I didn't see any goblins in there with his mech to support him. Meanwhile Mekkatorque had one.

    And keep in mind the reason the Horde needed the Alliance's help was because the Horde's major force was Orcs, which a good amount sided and died fighting for Garrosh.

    So sure, maybe leaders vs leaders they could have held the ground, but the armies were drastically in favor of the Alliance. So unless you think they could have mowed down the entire army on the way out.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I'd think you'd strain your back with that much reaching.

    There is no "Saurfang decided to help the Alliance", or else Saurfang would have been in Stormwind Keep planning with Anduin, and they would have helped him go get Thrall which would have been a far more logical and safer bet than hoping Saurfang can find him before Sylvanas did.

    It's Anduin didn't see Saurfang as a threat, nor was there a reason to keep him prisoner since he wasn't returning to Sylvanas nor did Sylvanas want him back.

    It's a Saurfang cinematic through and through. The topic at hand was the Horde. The entire plot of it was about the Horde.

    You might not like Saurfang as a Horde character but I hate to break it to you, it's obvious Saurfang is what Blizzard wants the Horde to be.
    Stop Joe, its an Alliance cinematic.

  12. #112
    Herald of the Titans Synros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evaddon View Post
    Its from Anduin's perspective, no it does not, if you feel that way thats on you.
    Yaaah no, it wasn't. There was maybe 5 seconds of relevance to the Alliance, when Anduin and Genn were talking about the war. But aside from that, it had nothing to do with the Alliance. It was all about SAURFANG dealing with how he feels about what's happening to the HORDE. Anduin was only there as a plot device to explain how Saurfang got out of SW...
    ON WEDNESDAYS WE WEAR PINK

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I'd think you'd strain your back with that much reaching.

    There is no "Saurfang decided to help the Alliance", or else Saurfang would have been in Stormwind Keep planning with Anduin, and they would have helped him go get Thrall which would have been a far more logical and safer bet than hoping Saurfang can find him before Sylvanas did.
    But there's absolutely no point to plan anything with Anduin as he's a complete moron when it comes to warfare, as he has shown at Lordaeron. And since Saurfang was at Lordaeron, he doesn't even have the excuse of being unaware of that.

    That in no way negates the fact that Anduin let him free hoping that he'll defeat Sylvanas for him because as he himself admitted he lacks the balls for that. Just like it doesn't negate that Saurfang admitted moments earlier that he deliberately spared the life of the High King of the Alliance hoping he'd have defeated Sylvanas for him in turn, because he also lacked the balls to do it himself. And since they were caught in a catch 22 of ballessness where each of them hoped the other would take care of Sylvanas, one of them had to give in and solve their mutual problem for them.

    And the questline clearly shows that SI:7 was covering up Alliance involvement in facilitating Saurfang's escape. And the only reason why they'd have to do that is because Anduin anticipated him working with his new pal Saurfang wouldn't be liked by everyone within the Alliance (which makes little sense on a side note, as Alliance is a faction of his yes-men). Which is precisely why they weren't just chilling in Anduin's throne room conspiring together. Which, in turn, is precisely why them not doing that in no way negates Saurfang being an Alliance asset right now.

    Then there's the part in 8.2, where, you know, Saurfang explicitly cooperates with Alliance during an operation hostile against the Horde right in the Horde's capital and they rescue a traitor to the Horde together.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    It's a Saurfang cinematic through and through. The topic at hand was the Horde. The entire plot of it was about the Horde.
    But traitors to the Horde are explicitly not Horde. By their own volition.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    You might not like Saurfang as a Horde character but I hate to break it to you, it's obvious Saurfang is what Blizzard wants the Horde to be.
    Their wants are immaterial. Saurfang betrayed the Horde. And then conspired with Horde's enemy. That makes him not Horde. Just like the Forsaken stopped being Scourge the moment they rebelled against the Lich King. Blizzard doesn't get to rewrite language or the basics of the concept of allegiance to something.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Thrall got his butt served to him twice by Garrosh, without even being empowered by Y'shaarj yet. In terms of physical prowess at least. "Killing" Garrosh didn't change that the elements were twisted in the area still. Meanwhile Varian was able to hold his own against Garrosh.

    Gallywix is useless without a mech and I didn't see any goblins in there with his mech to support him. Meanwhile Mekkatorque had one.
    You do realize Thrall Shamaned his way out of Garrosh's dark binding immediately after Garrosh told him he twisted the Elements in the area, proving the twisting to be ineffective against a Shaman of Thrall's caliber, right? And Varian was consistently fairing worse and worse against Garrosh in each consecutive fight against him. In their last one Garrosh had the upper hand. Mekkatorque had Gnomish mount. During Underhold trash. He's not on it after Garrosh's fight. Meanwhile Gallywix was an experienced brawler without his mech.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    And keep in mind the reason the Horde needed the Alliance's help was because the Horde's major force was Orcs, which a good amount sided and died fighting for Garrosh.

    So sure, maybe leaders vs leaders they could have held the ground, but the armies were drastically in favor of the Alliance. So unless you think they could have mowed down the entire army on the way out.
    First of all, the majority of Orcs sided with Vol'jin as per Word of God. And the status of Orcs isn't mentioned in anyone's decision to cooperate with anyone. And what you deliberately chose to ignore here is that the Alliance sided with the rebellion in turn because neither side could take on just Garrosh and his tiny True Horde alone. How you went from there to "the armies were drastically in favor of the Alliance" is one of the mysteries of our times.

    On top of that Horde had home turf advantage. And a lot of Alliance forces were humans. In a situation where Val'kyr where involved. When previously in the war the Alliance specifically avoided sending humans against Sylvanas because that's a losing battle as she can turn their fallen against them and win simply thanks to attrition being in her favor (and she already started resurrecting them even before a fight with the Alliance broke out).
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    But there's absolutely no point to plan anything with Anduin as he's a complete moron when it comes to warfare, as he has shown at Lordaeron. And since Saurfang was at Lordaeron, he doesn't even have the excuse of being unaware of that.
    And that's the point of "If it was about cooperation, the Alliance would have benefited from having another tactician who has experience".

    But I mean, Sylvanas's plan was literally just "Blow the place up" anyway, which accomplished nothing but losing her own home. She might as well have just blown it up to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    That in no way negates the fact that Anduin let him free hoping that he'll defeat Sylvanas for him because as he himself admitted he lacks the balls for that. Just like it doesn't negate that Saurfang admitted moments earlier that he deliberately spared the life of the High King of the Alliance hoping he'd have defeated Sylvanas for him in turn, because he also lacked the balls to do it himself. And since they were caught in a catch 22 of ballessness where each of them hoped the other would take care of Sylvanas, one of them had to give in and solve their mutual problem for them.
    No, he didn't say anything about "lacking the balls" for it. Like I said, it has nothing to do with "who can and can't" take her down, it's that there's no point of fighting each other when they both oppose the same person.

    Also, 90% of it was because of Varian's praise for Saurfang. Not sure how many times you wanted to hear Anduin say how he respects Saurfang because he's an orc that managed to even earn his father's respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    And the questline clearly shows that SI:7 was covering up Alliance involvement in facilitating Saurfang's escape. And the only reason why they'd have to do that is because Anduin anticipated him working with his new pal Saurfang wouldn't be liked by everyone within the Alliance (which makes little sense on a side note, as Alliance is a faction of his yes-men). Which is precisely why they weren't just chilling in Anduin's throne room conspiring together. Which, in turn, is precisely why them not doing that in no way negates Saurfang being an Alliance asset right now.
    Or, crazy idea, he just didn't want people knowing that he let Saurfang escape. Nothing about working together. Unless you feel like giving actual proof that they were going to work together, which surprise, was already proven faulty by the fact that the Alliance and Horde both meet up in saving Baine and just basically results in an *insert Spider man pointing at Spider man meme here*.

    If there was any idea of cooperation based off of Saurfang, this is where it would have surfaced. Anduin would have mentioned cooperating with Saurfang for an increased chance of success.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Then there's the part in 8.2, where, you know, Saurfang explicitly cooperates with Alliance during an operation hostile against the Horde right in the Horde's capital and they rescue a traitor to the Horde together.
    Which as I just covered, was pure coincidence.
    No, it doesn't change whether or not he's a traitor to Sylvanas and thereby the Horde, but it doesn't prove that they were planning to work together.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    But traitors to the Horde are explicitly not Horde. By their own volition.


    Their wants are immaterial. Saurfang betrayed the Horde. And then conspired with Horde's enemy. That makes him not Horde. Just like the Forsaken stopped being Scourge the moment they rebelled against the Lich King. Blizzard doesn't get to rewrite language or the basics of the concept of allegiance to something.
    And this is where I point you towards my original post saying it doesn't matter whether or not you want to debate if Saurfang is Horde or not, the cinematic is still a Saurfang one, and likewise ABOUT the Horde.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    You do realize Thrall Shamaned his way out of Garrosh's dark binding immediately after Garrosh told him he twisted the Elements in the area, proving the twisting to be ineffective against a Shaman of Thrall's caliber, right? And Varian was consistently fairing worse and worse against Garrosh in each consecutive fight against him. In their last one Garrosh had the upper hand. Mekkatorque had Gnomish mount. During Underhold trash. He's not on it after Garrosh's fight. Meanwhile Gallywix was an experienced brawler without his mech.
    And proceeded to get slammed into a wall about 5 seconds after that, and astral recalled away (He sure is good at that).

    He also didn't use any elements past that, and it makes no sense to claim that he had easy access to them still as seen with the elements, Thrall wins.

    And the Underhold trash is literally right behind the room Garrosh is in. I doubt it makes sense that he just left it there, and it would most likely be within distance just removed for cinematic purposes.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    First of all, the majority of Orcs sided with Vol'jin as per Word of God. And the status of Orcs isn't mentioned in anyone's decision to cooperate with anyone. And what you deliberately chose to ignore here is that the Alliance sided with the rebellion in turn because neither side could take on just Garrosh and his tiny True Horde alone. How you went from there to "the armies were drastically in favor of the Alliance" is one of the mysteries of our times.
    Last I checked, the only side in game that was literally begging the other was the Horde. The Alliance agreed to help as part of a united front, never was it stated that they "needed" them. Unlike the other way around.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    On top of that Horde had home turf advantage. And a lot of Alliance forces were humans. In a situation where Val'kyr where involved. When previously in the war the Alliance specifically avoided sending humans against Sylvanas because that's a losing battle as she can turn their fallen against them and win simply thanks to attrition being in her favor (and she already started resurrecting them even before a fight with the Alliance broke out).
    This really confuses me how you think this is a point though.

    No one in the Horde knew about the underhold. That was new to even them.
    Past that, even today it's been shown that the Alliance has spies in Orgrimmar to scout.

    Furthermore, the only races at that point that lived predominately in Orgrimmar were Orcs, Trolls, and Goblins. So Blood Elves, Tauren, and Forsaken don't have this "home turf advantage", and the leaders were already pidgeonholed into a situation that they couldn't escape except by fighting their way out.

    Meanwhile, last I remember it was the Alliance who still had access to all of their weaponry including the flying ships, while the Horde's were still controlled by Garrosh.

    And by your own logic, unless Val'kyr can turn invisible suddenly, nowhere were they seen at all throughout the entire raid instance.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Evaddon View Post
    Its from Anduin's perspective, no it does not, if you feel that way thats on you.
    You can argue that it's for both factions, but it's definitely not an Alliance only one, let an Alliance focused one.

    What is the plot of the cinematic? Alliance is running out of soldiers so Anduin makes a deal. Who does he make that deal with? Saurfang. What is that deal about? Saurfang's Honor rebellion.

    The reason that it's hard to call it an "Alliance cinematic" is the point of the cinematic, which was to set up a Horde story line and plot. At the end of it, Alliance has no further story.

    They gained nothing other than a one off line of, "We're not doing too great right now." Which was pretty much negated by the actually actions in game and the canon lore. In the canon lore, Horde were the ones off fighting in Uldir. During that time, Alliance made a move on Dazar'alor and basically destroyed almost the entirety of the Horde fleet as a result. We're now after Dazar'alor and guess what's happening? That's right, Horde story and progression with their rebellion while Alliance, once again, just tags along with the "We'll get revenge, but right now we have a bigger foe" story line.

    So sure, it started as looking like an Alliance cinematic, but if you actually take a step back, it's nothing more than a Horde story cinematic that happens to take place in Stormwind with Alliance leadership talking and a brief sentence about how weak the Alliance actually is when it comes to combat and can't do it without the Horde that don't like Sylvanas.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    ...
    Now, there's nothing wrong with rooting for the bad guys - some people wanna play the jedi and some wanna play the sith - that's okay. But at least acknowledge you're the evil, non-justified team and we can move on with our lives.
    That's the core issue of Horde fanboism. They can't own their shit and are in a constant state of irritated denial and blame throwing. In Star Wars I love the Empire/Sith because they are damn hot unapologetic evil badasses who own it. With the Horde there are hordes of fanbois who immediately jump to conjure up excuses. The Horde is always misunderstood and it's someone else's fault. The controversy and lack of identity is so repulsive that I don't even enjoy them being the enemy and rather we fight a greater evil together.

    The Alliance is "boring" because the plot is forcing it to do nothing but suffer blows or else the Horde will be ended so fast they'd be running through the portal to alternative Draenor - which could make for an excellent Alliance cinematic.

  17. #117
    The Lightbringer Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    That's the core issue of Horde fanboism. They can't own their shit and are in a constant state of irritated denial and blame throwing. In Star Wars I love the Empire/Sith because they are damn hot unapologetic evil badasses who own it. With the Horde there are hordes of fanbois who immediately jump to conjure up excuses. The Horde is always misunderstood and it's someone else's fault. The controversy and lack of identity is so repulsive that I don't even enjoy them being the enemy and rather we fight a greater evil together.

    The Alliance is "boring" because the plot is forcing it to do nothing but suffer blows or else the Horde will be ended so fast they'd be running through the portal to alternative Draenor - which could make for an excellent Alliance cinematic.
    You can't blame Horde players when writers depict the Horde as a band of outcasts banding together for survival one day, and as maniacal warmongers and mass murderers on the following. I personally didn't sign up for the latter, I signed up for WC3/Vanilla Horde - and I guess a large number of Horde fans are in the same boat. In the meantime, Alliance are always the pure knights in shining armor who can do no wrong... and if they ever do, it's immediately swept under the rug so they can keep the moral high ground Morally grey story indeed!
    "The heart of the Horde" = Alliance-approved Horde

  18. #118
    Elemental Lord matheney2k's Avatar
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    I'm confused, are people really claiming that BFA hasn't been like 70% focused Horde and 30% focused Alliance?
    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    Klling a new born is not much morally different than a late term abortion. Should be avoided, but it's not like it is an actual person yet.

  19. #119
    I think people just need to stop being cry babies, honestly. The primary focus/problem of this expansion so far as been Sylvanas, thus it makes sense the cinematics play into the main role of the expansion hence why it's been Horde "sided". There's nothing (as of yet) in terms of plot importance that an Alliance cinematic could contribute (unlike Saurfang bringing Thrall back into the Horde) that would result in a justification for having a full CGI cinematic being produced - BfA has been a very Horde focused story line so far and that's fine, because you can never truly 50/50 balance a story line and have cinematics for it. I'm positive in the future the Alliance will get a similar treatment, but for now peoples whining does absolutely zero.

  20. #120
    Scarab Lord Kyphael's Avatar
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    The only cinematic I'd care to see involves Sylvanas, N'zoth and all his tentacles.

    More Old God cinematics!

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