Page 1 of 3
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #1

    Seriously what are these Jaina "nerfs"

    Icefall no longer spawns during full power Gathering Blizzard, everyone was standing in ordance anyway so the icefall wasn't bad, now it's much harder because it spawns during avalance. Before you could just wait until avalance rooting things are coming to raid and then move over already landed icefall to last ordnance but no, now the new icefall RNG can ruin that.

    And the prismatic image change: previously it spawned nicely to middle and whole raid could move to right during ice ray but now it's shit RNGfest. Prismatic image can spawn anywhere, ruining everything again.

    So what was the purpose of these "nerfs" again?
    Multi R1 gladiator
    many world firsts, currently in top 20 guild

  2. #2
    The icefall spawning later changes nothing, half the room is blocked off either way. Just make a warlock portal over the icefall like you always did. The only difference is I guess if you manage to get hit by the 0.2 seconds the icefall is actually doing damage while taking the warlock portal. It's a nice change because you don't have to rely on eagle eye/far sight now.

    The image change is a huge nerf because it spawns the image very close to Jaina now, so you just move the boss on top of the image and have it die to passive cleave then enjoy your p3 with no images.

    Also, you can kill the elemental then dance around for a bit and let all your stacks from the first blizzard of p3 fall off and start p3 with 0 stacks. Looks like this it's absurd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcBISVPXlIQ

    These nerfs are enormous. Our guild isn't good and we went from a 22% wipe last sunday to getting our first kill right away last night.
    Last edited by Nitros14; 2019-05-15 at 07:37 PM.

  3. #3
    The dancing after killing water elementals is a huge nerf. Start phase 3 with 0 elementals and 0 stacks. Easy kill. We didn't kill images either. Just call out in advance where to stack and run through the boss when ray gets cast. You have tons of time to prepare for it. No RNG involved.

    P2 is slightly more annoying but I wouldn't call it a significant buff. It just changes timing of when you move to 3rd ordinance slightly.
    Youtube Channel Twitch Stream
    Main Mage
    No Big Deal - Stormrage - 7/7 Mythic EN - 2/3 Mythic (Pre nerf) ToV 4/10M Nighthold 2 day/week raiding guild - No Longer Raiding (RIP)

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Yes that looks really absurd and nothing like our guild is used to do this fight. The problem is after 10+ kills we had to kinda relearn this fight to kill her again because of these changes. If they want to nerf already easy boss just nerf % of damage etc, and not to make guilds relearn something.
    Last edited by atenime45; 2019-05-15 at 08:09 PM.
    Multi R1 gladiator
    many world firsts, currently in top 20 guild

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    The icefall spawning later changes nothing, half the room is blocked off either way. Just make a warlock portal over the icefall like you always did. The only difference is I guess if you manage to get hit by the 0.2 seconds the icefall is actually doing damage while taking the warlock portal. It's a nice change because you don't have to rely on eagle eye/far sight now.

    The image change is a huge nerf because it spawns the image very close to Jaina now, so you just move the boss on top of the image and have it die to passive cleave then enjoy your p3 with no images.

    Also, you can kill the elemental then dance around for a bit and let all your stacks from the first blizzard of p3 fall off and start p3 with 0 stacks. Looks like this it's absurd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcBISVPXlIQ

    These nerfs are enormous. Our guild isn't good and we went from a 22% wipe last sunday to getting our first kill right away last night.

    https://i.imgur.com/vIF3732.jpg that does look scary tho. Killing the image makes it split in two after a bit (just like the elemental), supposedly, so instead of only one icefall they had 3.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    https://i.imgur.com/vIF3732.jpg that does look scary tho. Killing the image makes it split in two after a bit (just like the elemental), supposedly, so instead of only one icefall they had 3.
    Just another example of how badly designed this encounter is. All these mechanics no one encountered because the optimal way to do the fight was to have none of them happen.

  7. #7
    Scarab Lord
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    4,288
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Just another example of how badly designed this encounter is. All these mechanics no one encountered because the optimal way to do the fight was to have none of them happen.
    On one hand, this does sound like something posted just to troll people... but on the other, considering how messed up this entire phase was, it might very well be true. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if there was something extra happening some time after the second orb of frost, except no one ever lived that long. Maybe images shoot their own orbs or summon more elementals to spice things up. Who knows what stupid ideas the devs had for this fight.

    They really should have cut down on phase 1/first intermission and worked on phase 3. It's amazing how terrible it turned out in the end.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2019-05-16 at 12:32 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Just another example of how badly designed this encounter is. All these mechanics no one encountered because the optimal way to do the fight was to have none of them happen.
    The fight has been bullshit from day one and it's no surprise that much like Sasszine it gets more and more stupid with every change they make.
    The ridiculously stupid circumstance that it wasn't realistically possible to have the raid get to more than 15 stacks and that P3 had to be finished after like 1 minute or otherwise it'd just become a shitshow of RNG and unhealable damage was just mind-boggling - even more so that they left it in that state for like 3 months.

    Jaina was never properly tested and, seemingly, because the world first was streamed they were just way too reluctant to change it to even just remotely make sense.

    Their hardon to release fights in a ridiculously overtuned (and undertested) state just so that 3 guilds have a proper world first race is becoming more and more questionable. It's not fun having to learn an obviously overtuned/unfinished fight for weeks just for it to eventually get nerfed to reasonable levels 5 minutes after the top 5 guilds have killed the fight on super hardmode.

  9. #9
    I still think it comes down to gear. Make fights that are hard because the guilds trying to do them the first week are undergeared. Then as the rest of us gear up and level our necks, they should get easier.

    The status quo atm is that top guilds are FULLY geared on day 1. Systems like m+ spamming for titanforge, no tier sets, no good raid trinkets, and titan residuum farming are to blame. The result is that a boss that is hard for them is impossible for everyone else so the only thing to do is keep nerfing and nerfing. Nerfing should not be expected.


    Also if you think it's harder now... give your head a shake lol. Every single guild that was on p3 before the nerfs will kill it this week. Guaranteed.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sxq View Post
    I still think it comes down to gear. Make fights that are hard because the guilds trying to do them the first week are undergeared. Then as the rest of us gear up and level our necks, they should get easier.

    The status quo atm is that top guilds are FULLY geared on day 1. Systems like m+ spamming for titanforge, no tier sets, no good raid trinkets, and titan residuum farming are to blame. The result is that a boss that is hard for them is impossible for everyone else so the only thing to do is keep nerfing and nerfing. Nerfing should not be expected.


    Also if you think it's harder now... give your head a shake lol. Every single guild that was on p3 before the nerfs will kill it this week. Guaranteed.
    Well, it was a reproge for us. Took 1 hour to kill her again, timings were totally different in P2.
    Multi R1 gladiator
    many world firsts, currently in top 20 guild

  11. #11
    7 long weeks (2 raids per week) of hard slogging, almost brought her down on the last night before the nerfs.. got her tonight obviously, feel so utterly empty but angry at the same time. Oh well.

    By the by, we had someone who wasn't here tonight with the same lockout, can we use that again next week to skip to Jaina? Not sure if there was a re-work on raid locks and how they work a while back.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Reyuna View Post
    By the by, we had someone who wasn't here tonight with the same lockout, can we use that again next week to skip to Jaina? Not sure if there was a re-work on raid locks and how they work a while back.
    No, you can't.

  13. #13
    I mean based on the comments that blizz made in the first month while hotfixing jaina, they fully intended the real strat for the boss to involve slowly handling adds and partial raid freezes while using lust to recover at some point

    I think the big issue is just that the orb of frost didn't give enough stacks for that to be remotely viable to the burn strat that became everyone's go to
    another factor supporting this was the fact that the burn strat was only doable at first with the troll racial stack drop going into p3 off the nathanos kill debuff reset

    the burn strat might've still been doable I guess though since they were still a few stacks away from freezing?, it would've been 15-20s shorter though to make the burn check, but I'm not sure it would've been the go-to as it was.

    anyways as far as the new changes: the new icefall timer isn't that bad, all it means is your warlock may have to re-cast their gateway and that your avalanche tank and runner may need to take an odd route straight up be manually broken (which you have plenty of time to do, even my guild is close to 2 barreling p2 now), which was something that happened sometimes with weird energy timings anyways

    if you kept your p3 entry at the same pace it used to be relative to the storm timers, you should be fine, because the fight really is a fuckton easier now, especially since you save a billion 2minute ballista rng wipes

    also, a lot of guilds would pop barrel 2 after blizzard ended rather than during so they could pop no heal cd's for the siegebreaker and have everything up for p3, I think guilds barreling the blizzard icefall were probably the minority (you know, since 7-12 stacks+broadsides+siegebreaker kind of hurts and pretty much demands some form of heavy defensive or heal cd)
    Last edited by ryklin; 2019-05-17 at 10:26 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Sxq View Post
    Nerfing should not be expected.
    Raids getting nerfed over time has been the status quo since forever. They either directly nerf the bosses or indirectly nerf them with power creep (valor to upgrade gear for example). You can probably count on one had the number of raids tiers that were not nerfed in the history of WoW.



    Also, yes, nerfing should be expected. Not only because it has been the standard forever, but nerfs late in a tiers cycle are very important to lower end raid guilds. For guilds still struggling to kill a boss at lockout week 16, nerfs are very important morale boosts to keep those guilds playing. If you get upset that world ranked guild 2381 finally gets to kill mythic jaina 2 weeks before the new raid opens, you have serious issues.

  15. #15
    it also helps that most the early nerfs to endbosses lately are just against race/class stack bullshit
    jaina:troll racial nerf
    ghuun: 4lock check nerf
    cos: melee friendly
    mythrax: melee friendly
    argus: more non-immune friendly (seriously that fight was awful with 3 chains)
    aggramar: flame rend now does the same dmg to raids without a 5man rend group
    KJ: pre-set intermission makes fight remotely possible without major trinket downgrades, and that's still using gateway cheese
    avatar: fissures more realistically soakable by anyone
    elisande/augur:3/4 heal versions of the fight added

    theres also been massive nerfs to endbosses mid-prog on most these bosses
    like M uunat's soft enrage, but I doubt he was killable without a longer cd on it

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ryklin View Post
    ghuun: 4lock check nerf
    Just to make a passing comment, I will acknowledge Blizzard tried to get rid of the 4 lock strat, but they didn't do enough on that front. Guilds were still rolling with that because it only took one week of gearing (they could be in the 360s) and it was more consistent because you wanted to deposit the orbs in set time windows of the fight. Everybody I saw was still doing 4 locks. The fight was also very anti-melee in last phase. 2 boils neutered that, but it came late though. Same with Mythrax, those anti-melee nerfs came way too late.

    Some of the other changes were done in a timely fashion, but I'd say overall they need to do these sorts of changes faster.

    The major mechanical changes to Jaina shouldn't have taken 3 months and change. Same with Fetids spawning consistency.
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2019-05-20 at 02:00 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by MrExcelion View Post
    Just to make a passing comment, I will acknowledge Blizzard tried to get rid of the 4 lock strat, but they didn't do enough on that front. Guilds were still rolling with that because it only took one week of gearing (they could be in the 360s) and it was more consistent because you wanted to deposit the orbs in set time windows of the fight. Everybody I saw was still doing 4 locks. The fight was also very anti-melee in last phase. 2 boils neutered that, but it came late though. Same with Mythrax, those anti-melee nerfs came way too late.

    Some of the other changes were done in a timely fashion, but I'd say overall they need to do these sorts of changes faster.

    The major mechanical changes to Jaina shouldn't have taken 3 months and change. Same with Fetids spawning consistency.
    Sure if you had 4 locks it was a nice to have but far from needed like it originally was. We only had access to 2 so used 2 for our prog & future kills with ease.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Yunaqt View Post
    Sure if you had 4 locks it was a nice to have but far from needed like it originally was. We only had access to 2 so used 2 for our prog & future kills with ease.
    Another side discussion here: is this affecting your CoS progression at all, or are your raiders preparing more ranged alts since the case of Uldir? The ele shaman and lock comps from all the mythic Uu'nat kills are on another level compared to Ghuun. Wonder how long it'll take before we see nerfs to address that. Not sure if you're one of the ~170 guilds working on Uu'nat right now but just curious if you've felt compelled to make adjustments. Just genuinely curious is all.
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2019-05-20 at 02:19 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by MrExcelion View Post
    Another side discussion here: is this affecting your CoS progression at all, or are your raiders preparing more ranged alts since the case of Uldir? The ele shaman and lock comps from all the mythic Uu'nat kills are on another level compared to Ghuun. Wonder how long it'll take before we see nerfs to address that. Not sure if you're one of the ~170 guilds working on Uu'nat right now but just curious if you've felt compelled to make adjustments. Just genuinely curious is all.
    Not at all, as we're one of the guilds that decided to just not really worry about the instance. Instead just farming BoD for Jaina mounts and will put a little progression in but ultimately just chill out until Azshara.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Yunaqt View Post
    Not at all, as we're one of the guilds that decided to just not really worry about the instance. Instead just farming BoD for Jaina mounts and will put a little progression in but ultimately just chill out until Azshara.
    That's the answer I expected, makes sense. Smart decision IMO. It's easy to just write off CoS. Hopefully we don't see Uu'nat-style comps in the future in a major raid. If you're in a guild that doesn't do heavy rerolling, not much reason to go out of your way, and yeah, you get to chill and farm mounts. (rip ghuun not having anything worthwhile). CoS probably should have just been released alongside BoD and tuned lower/more appropriately. And there been a skip in BoD to go to Stormwall. Not a fan of the CoS and ToV style release timing (seems to be what most people think, they want breaks). I feel like CoS is certainly important for advancing the story, getting us more acquainted with N'Zoth, the final boss, but that isn't justification for the release timing and final tuning. Despite the ilvl bumps, the loot is still irrelevant come next tier's +30 ilvl boost. Release it alongside BoD and the loot means something.
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2019-05-20 at 03:57 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •