1. #1

    BfA's concept was a Horde Alliance war, but ended up as a Horde internal conflict war

    Like seriously, I just don't fucking get this. When BfA was announced it was FUCK YEAH HORDE VS ALLIANCE LET'S GO

    Two content patches later, and once again we're getting this "Horde internal conflict and Alliance is there too" bullshit. Mists of Pandaria anyone?

    This expansion would have been so much better if the Alliance invaded Undercity first. Not because of some morally required retaliation, but because we're the fucking Alliance and it's Lordaeron and we want it back.

    Why are the Horde always the aggressors, and why do they ALWAYS fucking get away with it because "sorry guys our warchief was evil, the majority of us are honorable good guys"?

    I'm so fucking tired of entire expansions being devoted to the Horde's internal emo drama. There's two factions in this fucking game.

    Aside from the lore let's not even get into how the Alliance was neglected in other aspects of the game, like getting 50 different horse colors while the Horde gets cool mounts. Because at this point it's literally a fucking meme.

  2. #2
    BfA's concept was a Horde Alliance war
    The second they mentioned Azshara playing a role in this expansion it was clear that the Faction Conflict would only serve as a backdrop/distraction.

  3. #3
    Pandaren Monk Void Fallen's Avatar
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    You remind me of the fact that if Varian still ruled, the Horde wouldn't have dared lay a finger on the Alliance. So sad. It's clear that they replaced him with Golden Boy so that this expansion could happen.
    The Void can be used to protect the world, not to destroy it. But as with any weapon or magic, one must learn to wield it correctly.

  4. #4
    Give me WC3:R, Blizz! The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    In my opinion, the expansion shouldn't have been a HvA conflict at all. We should've had a much larger focus on Azerite, the new dangers that it was causing to pop up all over the place, resurgent threats from old that were barely holding on getting a massive shot in the arm, things like Ghuun breaking free, and Titan creations going haywire all over the place due to their connection with Azeroth.

    Then, when things reach their peak and we're not sure if we can hold the line, Azshara strikes with her armies, forcing us to band together to beat her back, desperately try to keep the planet from dying, and keeping our own nations and peoples from being overwhelmed at the same time.

    EDIT: Funnily enough, now would be the perfect time for the 'Mongrel Horde'. Imagine Gnolls, Kobolds, Murlocs, and Troggs banding together with Azerite letting them become real badasses. That'd be fun.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathanyel View Post
    The second they mentioned Azshara playing a role in this expansion it was clear that the Faction Conflict would only serve as a backdrop/distraction.
    Fucking garbage. Azshara could have had her own expansion easily

  6. #6
    If they’re going to “resolve” the faction war, it’s the horde that need all the work and thus screen time. Led by Anduin, the Alliance’s default state is “let’s talk peace.” If WoW wants to address or soften the faction wall for gameplay reasons (which always come before lore), what story they lay down to at least attempt to motivate that will certainly have to be a “horde story.”

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
    Fucking garbage. Azshara could have had her own expansion easily
    Would've been more interesting than the tired old Faction Conflict. But I think WoD made Blizz realize that they can't have the same enemy type the whole expansion. Legion at least had many different demon types, including new ones, but the first tier was mostly about the Nightmare and its creatures, as well as the Elven Nightborne.

    Azshara could've been the major villain as advertised on the box, but we wouldn't have fought Naga and similar enemies all the time.
    Not announcing the "Big Bad" at least explained somewhat how the Faction Conflict could flare up like that, in the apparent absense of a major, uniting threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    Led by Anduin, the Alliance’s default state is “let’s talk peace.” If WoW wants to address or soften the faction wall for gameplay reasons (which always come before lore), what story they lay down to at least attempt to motivate that will certainly have to be a “horde story.”
    Well, there are developments within the Alliance, too, although subtle and muted against the overarching story, or hidden in a book like Genn's realization that Forsaken are people, too.
    The question the Alliance has to answer for itself, possibly in the tail end of the expansion, is: Can we forgive the Horde? Do we want to?

  8. #8
    It's funny because after Anduin let Saurfang go...

    crickets.

    Nothing from alliance other than Tyrande going Night Warrior for Elune... and even then... crickets again.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Weeps View Post
    It's funny because after Anduin let Saurfang go...

    crickets.

    Nothing from alliance other than Tyrande going Night Warrior for Elune... and even then... crickets again.
    Because nobody on Alliance besides Anduin and Shaw, both Stormwind people, know.

    This isn't an abandoned plotline. As soon as Sylvanas (or Saurfang?) reveals it to the rest of the Alliance it will start the "fuck Anduin" campaign, which Blizzard is not interested in starting until at least 8.2.5.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
    Like seriously, I just don't fucking get this. When BfA was announced it was FUCK YEAH HORDE VS ALLIANCE LET'S GO

    Two content patches later, and once again we're getting this "Horde internal conflict and Alliance is there too" bullshit. Mists of Pandaria anyone?

    This expansion would have been so much better if the Alliance invaded Undercity first. Not because of some morally required retaliation, but because we're the fucking Alliance and it's Lordaeron and we want it back.

    Why are the Horde always the aggressors, and why do they ALWAYS fucking get away with it because "sorry guys our warchief was evil, the majority of us are honorable good guys"?

    I'm so fucking tired of entire expansions being devoted to the Horde's internal emo drama. There's two factions in this fucking game.

    Aside from the lore let's not even get into how the Alliance was neglected in other aspects of the game, like getting 50 different horse colors while the Horde gets cool mounts. Because at this point it's literally a fucking meme.

    Let's quickly rewrite BoD so Rastakhan survives, but Jaina and Mekka die.

    And the whining will continue that it isn't fair that the Alliance are involved in the story and therefore lost characters.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by EbaumsTipster View Post
    Because nobody on Alliance besides Anduin and Shaw, both Stormwind people, know.

    This isn't an abandoned plotline. As soon as Sylvanas (or Saurfang?) reveals it to the rest of the Alliance it will start the "fuck Anduin" campaign, which Blizzard is not interested in starting until at least 8.2.5.
    That... actually isn't bad.

    Sylvanas is letting Saurfang and Baine run off to Thrall and Anduin because she's going to use that to split the Alliance.

    We figured out a way for this to make some sense.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathanyel View Post
    Would've been more interesting than the tired old Faction Conflict. But I think WoD made Blizz realize that they can't have the same enemy type the whole expansion. Legion at least had many different demon types, including new ones, but the first tier was mostly about the Nightmare and its creatures, as well as the Elven Nightborne.

    Azshara could've been the major villain as advertised on the box, but we wouldn't have fought Naga and similar enemies all the time.
    Not announcing the "Big Bad" at least explained somewhat how the Faction Conflict could flare up like that, in the apparent absense of a major, uniting threat.



    Well, there are developments within the Alliance, too, although subtle and muted against the overarching story, or hidden in a book like Genn's realization that Forsaken are people, too.
    The question the Alliance has to answer for itself, possibly in the tail end of the expansion, is: Can we forgive the Horde? Do we want to?
    People bitched in WotLK about how Arthas kept getting away. They probably didn't want to do the same with Azshara.

    Plus Azshara isn't really a big bad, she's a pawn of N'zoth. A powerful pawn, maybe a rook or bishop (or queen) but still isn't the big bad.

    We've got Horde vs Horde right now and I think we're close to starting an Alliance vs Alliance conflict. That's when the main story will really get going.

    Of course the main main story is still that Azeroth is either going to:
    a. die
    b. be born a corrupted void titan
    c. be born a regular titan

    And that's why N'zoth is striking now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    In my opinion, the expansion shouldn't have been a HvA conflict at all. We should've had a much larger focus on Azerite, the new dangers that it was causing to pop up all over the place, resurgent threats from old that were barely holding on getting a massive shot in the arm, things like Ghuun breaking free, and Titan creations going haywire all over the place due to their connection with Azeroth.

    Then, when things reach their peak and we're not sure if we can hold the line, Azshara strikes with her armies, forcing us to band together to beat her back, desperately try to keep the planet from dying, and keeping our own nations and peoples from being overwhelmed at the same time.

    EDIT: Funnily enough, now would be the perfect time for the 'Mongrel Horde'. Imagine Gnolls, Kobolds, Murlocs, and Troggs banding together with Azerite letting them become real badasses. That'd be fun.
    This really lacks a fundamental understanding of the forces at play here.

    There cannot be a united Horde and Alliance against N'zoth, because he would lose. He is the weakest of the old gods. Azshara isn't strong either as his main stooge. The naga have never made meaningful inroads on Azeroth because they're weak-ass enemies.

    N'zoth is working to divide the Horde and divide the Alliance and then strike.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  11. #11
    Give me WC3:R, Blizz! The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Let's quickly rewrite BoD so Rastakhan survives, but Jaina and Mekka die.

    And the whining will continue that it isn't fair that the Alliance are involved in the story and therefore lost characters.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That... actually isn't bad.

    Sylvanas is letting Saurfang and Baine run off to Thrall and Anduin because she's going to use that to split the Alliance.

    We figured out a way for this to make some sense.

    - - - Updated - - -



    People bitched in WotLK about how Arthas kept getting away. They probably didn't want to do the same with Azshara.

    Plus Azshara isn't really a big bad, she's a pawn of N'zoth. A powerful pawn, maybe a rook or bishop (or queen) but still isn't the big bad.

    We've got Horde vs Horde right now and I think we're close to starting an Alliance vs Alliance conflict. That's when the main story will really get going.

    Of course the main main story is still that Azeroth is either going to:
    a. die
    b. be born a corrupted void titan
    c. be born a regular titan

    And that's why N'zoth is striking now.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This really lacks a fundamental understanding of the forces at play here.

    There cannot be a united Horde and Alliance against N'zoth, because he would lose. He is the weakest of the old gods. Azshara isn't strong either as his main stooge. The naga have never made meaningful inroads on Azeroth because they're weak-ass enemies.

    N'zoth is working to divide the Horde and divide the Alliance and then strike.
    Well sure, that's why I'm saying there should be a lot more Azerite-based dangers about, with N'zoth working behind the scenes to get them to attack the Alliance and Horde to weaken them.

  12. #12
    They are doing all those cinematics as if we should care more about an orc being sad for being evil than Alliance (Nelves) wanting revenge for the massacre.

  13. #13
    Alliance should’ve started the war in my opinion. I mainly play Horde nowadays, but damn me if the current plotline is nonsensical and tired. Give the Alliance some internal conflicts, let the Horde and Alliance have expansions dealing with their own interal struggles, while zones could be either alliance-centered or horde-centered, with zones that make sense for it be contested between them, making the zone plot revolve around that, with both sides also having flavours of their own internal struggles bleed through.

    Let N’zoth get imprisoned again/killed/win, and decimate our factions while doing so, making us too exhausted to wage the all-out war we’re currently doing. Leave the Horde and Alliance limping back to lick their wounds, and only have enough strength to skirmish over specific zones, and maybe take a tower here, a town there.

    The Alliance can deal with the aftermath of Anduin/Tyrande struggles, maybe cause more friction between the two human nations, maybe make the dwarves, now unified again, start to disagree with major Alliance decisions. Make the factions within the factions drive the story forward.

    The Horde deals with the entire MoP 1.5 we seem to be setting up for, however that ends. How do we resolve the Forsaken question post-Sylvanas? We need to at least have some Forsaken in the Horde for gameplay purposes. The Forsaken faction has to struggle with finding their proper place in the Horde again, make them feel condescension and stigma from the other races. Force Baine to make a hard choice between some of his people surviving and his idealistic visions, taking resources from an Alliance settlement by force. Orcs can take a damn backseat for once, appearing as generals, captains or grunts where it makes sense, but rarely leading.

    I don’t need well-known names (aka leaders of factions themselves) driving the story forward every time. The story moved forward in a more organic fashion when the leaders made decisions and talked in war rooms, while you had lesser knowns sergeants and captains actually in the field with you. That’s how Nazgrim came to be, and part of why he was such a popular character.

    The Alliance sorely needs more internal conflict to drive its story, and the Horde could damn well do with less of the same storyline, and definitely without the Alliance being forced to tag along with it.

  14. #14
    What I would have liked is if after Legion and the sword-in-Silithus-thing the player characters would have gathered around Magni and tried to come up with a plan, I don't know, even trying to go for help from unlikely people (.... like Kul Tirans and the Zandalari) and at some point, we'd have discovered that in both original faction something is brewing and suddenly fights break out, new faction fights, and even old inner faction fights. We discover that these groups all use some kind of Azerite weaponry, which they should not actually have access to (like Ashvane).
    If Blizz really wanted to make Sylvanas the bad guy, they could have still done so, but maybe we would have discovered some traces among the Apothecary first, assuming that they maybe some of them have gone rogue (to be revealed later to actually work under Sylvanas's orders).
    At some point a rogue Alliance faction under... Admiral Rogers, maybe?.. could have tried to attack Undercity to gain intel or even just kill as many there as possible and set off some bombs, accidentally triggering some nice Blight bombs, leaving a lot of the city poisoned and unusable.
    Then make some Horde forces try and take revenge, while also trying to steal lots of Azerite, that could have accumulated in Teldrassil, which could still have burned down because of that.

    Once we (the player characters) are sufficiently distracted by the strange goings on and torn down cities, maybe trying to help out too, the Old God forces make their moves, moving first upon our new allies (Raid on Dazar'alor could be a combination of fighting Nazmani for example and other faction or rather forces pretending to be) and once we run to their rescue start attacking the damaged capital cities. Boom Warfronts.
    Azshara's forces start attacking the shores everywhere, with actual stakes and story, not just some world quest like any other.... continue from there as we have now.

  15. #15
    The Lightbringer Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegrian View Post
    They are doing all those cinematics as if we should care more about an orc being sad for being evil than Alliance (Nelves) wanting revenge for the massacre.
    That's what you get when you play (or like) the goody-goody faction that has no internal conflict or any problems whatsoever. You can't RP the gallant perfect knight in shining armour without getting bored to tears, and very quickly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Thrall will humblebrag about how he doesn't want it [to be Warchief].
    Saurfang'll probably die or say he's 'too tired'.
    Baine will gasp for air as he plops Anduin's boot out of his mouth and say 'I'll be High King of the Horde!'.

  16. #16
    Scarab Lord Maxrokur's Avatar
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    Wait I though the 2 factions on this game was Horde 1 and Horde 2 with the Horde 1 winning the late game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
    Like seriously, I just don't fucking get this. When BfA was announced it was FUCK YEAH HORDE VS ALLIANCE LET'S GO

    Two content patches later, and once again we're getting this "Horde internal conflict and Alliance is there too" bullshit. Mists of Pandaria anyone?

    This expansion would have been so much better if the Alliance invaded Undercity first. Not because of some morally required retaliation, but because we're the fucking Alliance and it's Lordaeron and we want it back.

    Why are the Horde always the aggressors, and why do they ALWAYS fucking get away with it because "sorry guys our warchief was evil, the majority of us are honorable good guys"?

    I'm so fucking tired of entire expansions being devoted to the Horde's internal emo drama. There's two factions in this fucking game.

    Aside from the lore let's not even get into how the Alliance was neglected in other aspects of the game, like getting 50 different horse colors while the Horde gets cool mounts. Because at this point it's literally a fucking meme.
    Because the alliance is designed around the white knight meme, most alliance players want to be on the moral pedestal how you can justify attacking the horde unprovoked?
    The default state is alliance do always good things will never start a war unless it's pushed in it by the horde, so blizzard need to give the horde an evil warchief so the war start and then they need to address the huge number of horde players who don't like to be on the evil side i dare to say the percentage of peoples in the horde who were pro garrosh and now pro sylvanas are around 30% of the horde.
    But the alliance? who gonna go bonker on alliance side to be the alliance garrosh or sylvanas? Anduin? Jaina? Tyrande? who?
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    That's what you get when you play (or like) the goody-goody faction that has no internal conflict or any problems whatsoever. You can't RP the gallant perfect knight in shining armour without getting bored to tears, and very quickly.
    You say that as if it was my fault the alliance is boring, and not the writers', to whom this thread and criticism is aimed at.

    Also, you don't need internal conflict of problems to have a good story, the thing is, the Alliance barely has any story at all.

  19. #19
    After almost 15 years, I'd think it would be obvious by now that we will never have a "real faction war". The faction war's main purpose is marketing, not story.

  20. #20
    The Lightbringer Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegrian View Post
    You say that as if it was my fault the alliance is boring, and not the writers', to whom this thread and criticism is aimed at.

    Also, you don't need internal conflict of problems to have a good story, the thing is, the Alliance barely has any story at all.
    While writers ARE crappy indeed (the Loa know I've roasted them on these boards), the entire narrative of the Alliance is quite difficult to improve. Conflict is the basic premise of any narrative; if there is no conflict, the entire thing becomes bland at best, silly at worst. The Alliance could face conflict in several ways:

    • Retaliation against the Horde, including some muddy acts of unbridled revenge, especially from the likes of Tyrande or Genn. Not really achievable with the Holy Boiking at the helm, as it befits the 100% Lawful Good faction.
    • Internal conflict. Anduin has !@#$ed badly the political and military aspects of the war. From the Siege of Lordaeron to imprisoning a royal from a (until then) neutral nation, he has botched several things. But there is no one to argue, not even the rash and proud Tyrande. And that's predictable, since a Lawful Good faction cannot have any internal dissent, or traitors, not even inept officials (and even if they are, like Shaw, it is just dismissed away).
    • A third wheel. Not only it's way out of reach for Blizzard writers, but it would also introduce some ambiguity in Ally decision making. But once again, ambiguity is not acceptable for a Lawful Good faction.

    In other words, if you want an interesting story, you not only need (much) better writers but also some dirt in your shoes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Thrall will humblebrag about how he doesn't want it [to be Warchief].
    Saurfang'll probably die or say he's 'too tired'.
    Baine will gasp for air as he plops Anduin's boot out of his mouth and say 'I'll be High King of the Horde!'.

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