SAT test to now include "adversity" score

[bowchikabow]

It's basically racism, with extra steps.

[Cracked]

The Racist Beginnings of Standardized Testing



Evidence not bias that the person who developed the test was person who believed in eugenics.



Again the test was designed to literally seperate people by race and aptitude.



Once again the guy who believed in Eugenics adapted the test, then used by a prestigious university in Harvard and others followed suit. So most universities basically took the test as the word and didn't delve into its bieas. Then again for some of you folks out there, but sorry most institutions were racist or biased at best in letting minorities into their universities.

So I just don't understand why some people in here don't look at the history as a whole and realize that the tests have biases. Plus trying to help students get more on a equal footing than students who have more access to testing standards should be a great thing. Instead most snowflakes in here cry they are the victims.

Okay so you just basically made me download some sample SAT tests, since I never saw them myself. I'd like to know where the bias is, then. Just because someone who helped created them calls them biased doesn't mean they necessarily are.

Your source is not working for me, so I can't really verify whether they give concrete examples.

[Celista]

1) nuanced as in I want you to agree with my side but the same argument doesn't apply to yours
2) show me some source of how inequality deepens for the large majority of society. Don't know where you live, but from where I see things, EVERYONE is better off and closer together in terms of opportunities and standard of living if you exclude the ultra rich 0.3%.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business...rtuniy/393272/

The idea that inequality breeds more inequality is not a new, contentious, or partisan idea, we discussed this in my econ classes in undergrad (in a conservative business program with a conservative professor).

[ellieg]

You're aware that colleges require a verifiable high school transcript for their admissions, right? They'd most likely be identified the second they requested records from the listed high school.

I don't get why you seem to think the public service is full of amateurs. Couldn't possibly be because of media myths about welfare fraud, could it?



As above. You clearly don't know how admissions are processed.

You arent understanding. Not just the highschool, but the specific area you live in affects the adversity score. Both my parents house and my uncles house are in the same school district. I live in the affluent part, he lives in the southside. Now that I know the rules, before I even enter highschool, my parents list my address as my uncles and claim im living with them. I am not a bus rider, I get driven to school everyday. They are not going to check up on my uncle because they dont care. I get an extra few adversity points for this.

What are you talking abt with welfare fraud lmao?

[Cracked]

https://www.theatlantic.com/business...rtuniy/393272/

The idea that inequality breeds more inequality is not a new, contentious, or partisan idea, we discussed this in my econ classes in undergrad (in a conservative business program with a conservative professor).

I'm not saying that poor people don't breed poor people. But you said that this divide increases. Which I have a major problem with, because that's something entirely different, as being poor is relative.

[Elegiac]

You arent understanding. Not just the highschool, but the specific area you live in affects the adversity score. Both my parents house and my uncles house are in the same school district. I live in the affluent part, he lives in the hills. Now that I know the rules, before I even enter highschool, my parents list my address as my uncles and claim on living with them. I am not a bus rider, I get driven to school everyday. They are not going to check up on my uncle because they dont care.

Again, you clearly don't know how admissions are processed. They are more than capable of cross referencing residence records. Besides, the amount of contorting you're having to do here shows how difficult and risky it actually would be to game such a system.

What are you talking abt with welfare fraud lmao?

Your lot's banging on about moral hazard, kek.

[ellieg]

Again, you clearly don't know how admissions are processed. They are more than capable of cross referencing residence records. Besides, the amount of contorting you're having to do here shows how difficult and risky it actually would be to game such a system.



Your lot's banging on about moral hazard, kek.

What is my lot? Lol.

What are they going to cross reference? Why are you being so obtuse? All I'm saying is this system is very open to abuse and if its implemented, I and many others would have no problem abusing it.

Why focus on the symptoms of inequality instead of fixing the source? It's like walking on broken glass every morning and instead of cleaning it up, you buy bandaid for your feet.

[tehealadin]

I think it is well meaning but flawed. In Scotland, we have something slightly akin to this. They are called SIMD ratings (Scottish Index of Multiple Deprivation), rated 1 (most deprived) to 10 (least). Whilst this does not factor into exam results it can be used in the university admissions process to lower entry requirements. I do take issue with how this is used, and wonder if something similar could happen down south. As a class teacher, I pay no attention to these things. I feel that you need to judge the kid you have in front of you as an individual. If they need extra help, you give them extra help. Some rating on deprivation won't change that for me. It isn't helped by how this is calculated, on an individual basis it is meaningless. I don't care about a kids background when it comes to giving support. Coming from a hellish background doesn't automatically mean that they will struggle, nor does coming from an affluent background mean you cannot struggle/experience problems.

Don't get me wrong, working with kids has made me well aware of the impact that the home environment has on them, I am under no illusions that growing up in deprivation can build significant barriers. Lowering entry requirements for university, whilst well intended, doesn't convince me. The universities won't give them an easier course and people could find themselves really struggling because they weren't prepared properly. Though this isn't really my issue, just an observation.

Proper funding of social services and early years, in my opinion, should be priority. You will never eliminate the problem, but I do believe that it can be lessened. More money for schools too wouldn't hurt, but it isn't schools that are the issue. If you go home and get battered, and/or see your parents getting battered, come home to violence in the streets on a daily basis, come home to parents too high to feed you or look after themselves, come home to crime in the house and in the neighborhood, come home and are forced to take part in criminal activities, come home to no encouragement or interest in your schooling, come home to get raped and abused, then all the money and good will in the world from schools won't fix that damage that is being done to that child- they still need to go home and home is the problem. By the time they get to secondary, even late primary, the damage is usually done.

Adverse childhood experiences have been shown to alter the way the brain works in these kids. Sadly, all too often, with kids from these kinds of backgrounds, as much as you want to try and give them that encouragement, that emotional support and to try and inspire them, to give them the respect that they aren't getting at home, most of the time you are just trying to give them a safe environment to spend 6 or so hours a day before they need to go back to hell, and all too often, any good work you managed gets undone. And it is heart breaking when you work with these kinds of kids. Believe me, I have experienced it. I've worked with kids from hellish home lives, I've seen how utterly damaged they are, how warped their perception of the world and themselves are. And I have experienced some kids where I just knew that the damage was done, it was irreparable. The focus isn't getting good grades, it is trying to keep them off the street and out of jail, it is trying to keep them off of drugs and away from dealers. It is trying to give them the belief that they could get a job, any job, just something that isn't criminal and going to land them in jail. With some, all I could do was just talk with them like human beings, like equals. Talk to them with kindness and respect, try and make them feel like they mattered, even if only to me. It was never going to be enough (I will always hope it might do it, but so far it hasn't), but it was all I could do, because getting them a qualification was just not going to happen. The thought of university is so far flung, and it isn't because they don't have the capacity to get there, that they are too "stupid", but because their reality is such that getting them to leave school and into a menial job is a giant fucking win. Lowering grade requirements, giving them extra marks etc won't break the cycle for many of these types of children and there are lots of these kids.

Trying to foster the belief in kids that they can go to university is really well intentioned. I will never tell a kid that they can't, I will always talk them through the routes. However sometimes, using this as the starting point of expectations is like taking a recent double leg amputee and expecting them to complete the London marathon 2 weeks after surgery. It just isn't realistic. And I may be accused of the bigotry of low expectations, however, for these type of kids, not landing in jail, not ending up with a substance problem, not ending up a dealer, that is high expectations. And it is a travesty that this is so. I want to live in a world where all kids can realise their potential. I genuinely hate seeing young lives go to waste. And I fully believe in the state doing whatever it can to remove barriers to this. However I will argue to the death that the problem isn't with schools (post early years), the problems are at home and they start very early, and any realistic and serious solution needs to start with this understanding. Sure, bring in these kinds of initiatives, if it does help individual pupils advance in their lives, even if just 1, then I will back it. Just don't be surprised if 20 years down the line, social mobility hasn't improved. You can't fix the problem at the top end of the scale when the problems at the bottom end are so apparent.

[Elegiac]

What is my lot? Lol.

What are they going to cross reference?

The proof of residency you're generally required to submit upon enrolling in a school district. Which you'd know if you were actually informed about the subject at hand.

Why are you being so obtuse? All I'm saying is this system is very open to abuse and if its implemented, I and many others would have no problem abusing it.

Yeah, and I'm saying you're full of shit because the scenario you're describing is a massive reach and is based on information told to you by people who have no idea how the education system actually works

Why focus on the symptoms of inequality instead of fixing the source? It's like walking on broken glass every morning and instead of cleaning it up, you buy bandaid for your feet.

This is an attempt to fix the source by increasing social mobility.

[ellieg]

The proof of residency you're generally required to submit upon enrolling in a school district. Which you'd know if you were actually informed about the subject at hand.



Yeah, and I'm saying you're full of shit because the scenario you're describing is a massive reach and is based on information told to you by people who have no idea how the education system actually works



This is an attempt to fix the source by increasing social mobility.

What is stopping me from listing my address as my uncles before I even attend highschool? Please answer this.

You seem to not like me for some reason. Did i fuck your sister or something lol? We can keep this civil

[Elegiac]

What is stopping me from listing my address as my uncles before I even attend highschool? Please answer this.

Where would you list it, exactly?

Show me how easy it is.

[ellieg]

Where would you list it, exactly?

Show me how easy it is.

When I first enroll in the school system or any change of address form anyone uses when they move. The address that the school system uses to send me any mail or determine my school based on my location.

[Independent voter]

I think it is well meaning but flawed. In Scotland, we have something slightly akin to this. They are called SIMD ratings (Scottish Index of Multiple Deprivation), rated 1 (most deprived) to 10 (least). Whilst this does not factor into exam results it can be used in the university admissions process to lower entry requirements. I do take issue with how this is used, and wonder if something similar could happen down south. As a class teacher, I pay no attention to these things. I feel that you need to judge the kid you have in front of you as an individual. If they need extra help, you give them extra help. Some rating on deprivation won't change that for me. It isn't helped by how this is calculated, on an individual basis it is meaningless. I don't care about a kids background when it comes to giving support. Coming from a hellish background doesn't automatically mean that they will struggle, nor does coming from an affluent background mean you cannot struggle/experience problems.

So that's where we got it from.

Don't get me wrong, working with kids has made me well aware of the impact that the home environment has on them, I am under no illusions that growing up in deprivation can build significant barriers. Lowering entry requirements for university, whilst well intended, doesn't convince me. The universities won't give them an easier course and people could find themselves really struggling because they weren't prepared properly. Though this isn't really my issue, just an observation.

Proper funding of social services and early years, in my opinion, should be priority. You will never eliminate the problem, but I do believe that it can be lessened. More money for schools too wouldn't hurt, but it isn't schools that are the issue. If you go home and get battered, and/or see your parents getting battered, come home to violence in the streets on a daily basis, come home to parents to high to feed you or look after themselves, come home to crime in the house and in the neighborhood, come home and are forced to take part in criminal activities, come home to no encouragement or interest in your schooling, come home to get raped and abused, then all the money and good will in the world from schools won't fix that damage that is being done to that child- they still need to go home and home is the problem. By the time they get to secondary, even late primary, the damage is usually done.

Adverse childhood experiences have been shown to alter the way the brain works in these kids. Sadly, all too often, with kids from these kinds of backgrounds, as much as you want to try and give them that encouragement, that emotional support and to try and inspire them, to give them the respect that they aren't getting at home, most of the time you are just trying to give them a safe environment to spend 6 or so hours a day before they need to go back to hell, and all too often, any good work you managed gets undone. And it is heart breaking when you work with these kinds of kids. Believe me, I have experienced it. I've worked with kids from hellish home lives, I've seen how utterly damaged they are, how warped their perception of the world and themselves are. And I have experienced some kids where I just knew that the damage was done, it was irreparable. The focus isn't getting good grades, it is trying to keep them off the street and out of jail, it is trying to keep them off of drugs and away from dealers. It is trying to give them the belief that they could get a job, any job, just something that isn't criminal and going to land them in jail. With some, all I could do was just talk with them like human beings, like equals. Talk to them with kindness and respect, try and make them feel like they mattered, even if only to me. It was never going to be enough (I will always hope it might do it, but so far it hasn't), but it was all I could do, because getting them a qualification was just not going to happen. The thought of university is so far flung, and it isn't because they don't have the capacity to get there, that they are too "stupid", but because their reality is such that getting them to leave school and into a menial job is a giant fucking win. Lowering grade requirements, giving them extra marks etc won't break the cycle for many of these types of children and there are lots of these kids.

Trying to foster the belief in kids that they can go to university is really well intentioned. I will never tell a kid that they can't, I will always talk them through the routes. However sometimes, using this as the starting point of expectations is like taking a recent double leg amputee and expecting them to complete the London marathon 2 weeks after surgery. It just isn't realistic. And I may be accused of the bigotry of low expectations, however, for these type of kids, not landing in jail, not ending up with a substance problem, not ending up a dealer, that is high expectations. And it is a travesty that this is so. I want to live in a world where all kids can realise their potential. I genuinely hate seeing young lives go to waste. And I fully believe in the state doing whatever it can to remove barriers to this. However I will argue to the death that the problem isn't with schools (post early years), the problems are at home and they start very early, and any realistic and serious solution needs to start with this understanding. Sure, bring in these kinds of initiatives, if it does help individual pupils advance in their lives, even if just 1, then I will back it. Just don't be surprised if 20 years down the line, social mobility hasn't improved. You can't fix the problem at the top end of the scale when the problems at the bottom end are so apparent.

I agree that intervention during the child's formative years is the best strategy. But we've tried so many things and none of them have worked. Not sure if we can do anything at all at this point.



Okay, let's take the case of Montero Lamar Hill. Age 20, a high school graduate. He's black and his high school was predominantly black. He didn't get much of an education because his school wasn't very good. The only adults in his life are his mother and grandmother. The family receives state aide.

He wants to go to New York University, the second best music school in the country, to learn about music, something that he loves, but his SAT scores are lowish. Should he be given special consideration?

I picked him because a song he wrote is number one in the country currently.

[Kantoro]

Can I get an adversity check for my gas prices?

[Elegiac]

When I first enroll in the school system or any change of address form anyone uses when they move. The address that the school system uses to send me any mail or determine my school based on my location.

Yes. Enrollment for which you are required to provide proof of residence, precisely so people don't try to game the district system.

[tehealadin]

So that's where we got it from.




I agree that intervention during the child's formative years is the best strategy. But we've tried so many things and none of them have worked. Not sure if we can do anything at all at this point.



Okay, let's take the case of Montero Lamar Hill. Age 20, a high school graduate. He's black and his high school was predominantly black. He didn't get much of an education because his school wasn't very good. The only adults in his life are his mother and grandmother. The family receives state aide.

He wants to go to New York University, the second best music school in the country, to learn about music, something that he loves, but his SAT scores are lowish. Should he be given special consideration?

I picked him because a song he wrote is number one in the country currently.

At no point did I say that they shouldn't do this. I said if it helps even 1, then do it. The point of my rather long winded post was that there are more fundamental problems at play here which aren't being properly addressed (I don't think), and I feel would help the greatest number of people if they were properly addressed.

I should also fix my post, I had it in my head that this was in England, confused SAT and SATs, my bad.

[ellieg]

Yes. Enrollment for which you are required to provide proof of residence, precisely so people don't try to game the district system.

Exactly. Proof of residence which my uncle would be more than happy to provide.

[petej0]

Yes. Enrollment for which you are required to provide proof of residence, precisely so people don't try to game the district system.

People have gamed the system this way. In this instance he would claim he was living with his uncle to use his uncles address. Where it could get dicey is when that person who claimed adversity files for financial aid. The adversity score wont exactly jive with the story told by financial aid.

[Elegiac]

Exactly. Proof of residence which my uncle would be more than happy to provide.

Something which is already illegal. Should we stop having schools require proof of residence, then?

And again; it's irrelevant. Every system is gameable, and if that were the principle concern we wouldn't do anything for risk of people abusing it.

[xindralol]

First of all, that's racist.

Second of all, I'm pretty sure you know the SATs are two steps down from law school.

Third of all, this has nothing to do with the Bar exam.

SATs get your college application looked at. They don't make you a lawyer. This is a Strawman.

hls/yale both use some form of adversity score in their admissions they admitted as much (not sure about nyu but that’s not the point anyway)
bar exam? you’re the one who brought it up haha. you’re right college admission (or even the school you got your jd degree from) has nothing to do with sitting for the bar / passing the mbe or state bar.