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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    All but one of your examples refers to content that is not in Cataclysm or refers to end-game content. I don’t see your point? There’s even IIRC a flight to skywall dungeon for toons who don’t have flying.
    You were talking about zones that required flying, and I've shown you zones that required flying. If it's "end-game content" or not doesn't matter. And there's no flight path to Skywall. You might be confusing with the "rescue Thrall" questline where an air elemental flies you there for the quest.
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  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You were talking about zones that required flying, and I've shown you zones that required flying. If it's "end-game content" or not doesn't matter. And there's no flight path to Skywall. You might be confusing with the "rescue Thrall" questline where an air elemental flies you there for the quest.
    I was talking about zones that required flying in Cataclysm. You posted BC and WotLK zones. I was talking about how flying really made a lot of places in Hyjal and TH (which it was obvious a lot of work went into) "flyover country".

    Don't get butthurt because you didn't read my initial argument and decided to punch your favored strawman.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    It's not like Blizzard is sitting at headquarters rubbing their nipples thinking about players not being able to fly.
    Honestly, if you go back and find some of the video interviews with Blizzard devs right before WoD launched, they pretty much are(figuratively speaking) doing exactly that. They REALLY thought that no-flying was going to be this big way to reinvigorate WoW.

    Pathfinder is just a big scam to get to keep a No-Flying design while letting players believe that it's still a worthy reward. It's not. Mostly what I hear from people is disappointment with how long No-Flying is going on for. Maybe that's just confirmation bias. Maybe not.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Honestly, if you go back and find some of the video interviews with Blizzard devs right before WoD launched, they pretty much are(figuratively speaking) doing exactly that. They REALLY thought that no-flying was going to be this big way to reinvigorate WoW.
    No, they weren't. The devs thought that no flying was the way to go. Then they decided maybe it wasn't. That's it. Nothing else happened. For fuck's sake dude, developers have the right to make decisions and change their minds when they realize it doesn't pan out the way they wanted. Not everything has to fit some dumb fucking narrative that essentially boils down to their reasoning always being "because fuck you."

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    No, they weren't. The devs thought that no flying was the way to go. Then they decided maybe it wasn't. That's it. Nothing else happened. For fuck's sake dude, developers have the right to make decisions and change their minds when they realize it doesn't pan out the way they wanted. Not everything has to fit some dumb fucking narrative that essentially boils down to their reasoning always being "because fuck you."
    I'm not even sure what you're trying to say anymore. What, that they just flipped a coin and made a decision in a vacuum without any consideration?

    You even said yourself that they made the decision because "they realize it doesn't pan out the way they wanted". Why do you think it didn't pan out? Certainly the player feedback and backlash against the idea had SOME influence on that decision, wouldn't you agree? And judging by the way Blizzard devs talked about no-flying, I think it's fair to say that some of them didn't like that they had to go back to having flight in the world.

    Hazzicostas himself(you know, the guy who's the LEAD GAME DESIGNER) is on record as saying he believes flight "actually detracted from gameplay in a whole lot of ways" and has NEVER actually changed his stance on that. The closest he's ever come to that is the repeated line of "Master the ground first, get to fly over it later" followed almost immediately by releasing Argus where you don't get to fly and CAN'T fly despite "mastering the ground". What message do you think that sends other than "Fuck you" to players who want flying?

    And even if we throw away all emotion, you still have to recognize that Pathfinder is knocking out three birds with one stone: They still get to develop and design a world without flying, AND they get to provide a carrot for players that encourages more of that design to be consider. All while still nominally giving players access to flight and quashing complaints about no-flying.

    Even if it has nothing to do with throwing a "because fuck you" at players, you have to at least see how it is still practically and effectively a no-flying World of Warcraft. Do you really think that's coincidence? That it's like that just because the devs decided randomly to set it up that way? Or is it more plausible that someone(Ion) is married to the idea of No-flying to such a degree that they're still imposing the idea on the game?

    I'm sorry if you don't want to look at the actions, and are instead stuck on the words. The pattern of behavior that Blizzard has shown towards flight is very much a "fuck you" directed at players.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-05-20 at 02:45 AM.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    No, people complained about flight in those too. Especially world pvp people.
    The number of people who complained were minuscule, though, and generally scoffed at until blizzard used them as scapegoats to do less work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    I was talking about zones that required flying in Cataclysm. You posted BC and WotLK zones. I was talking about how flying really made a lot of places in Hyjal and TH (which it was obvious a lot of work went into) "flyover country".

    Don't get butthurt because you didn't read my initial argument and decided to punch your favored strawman.
    I'm not. Just pointing out the flaws in what you said. Even if you were speaking solely about Cataclysm, you still forgot about Uldum and Twilight Highlands.
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  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I'm not even sure what you're trying to say anymore. What, that they just flipped a coin and made a decision in a vacuum without any consideration?
    Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. They tried it. Didn't like it. Changed their fucking minds. There's no greater justification.

    Normally for the sake of brevity I'd leave it here but you asked a bunch of dumb pointless questions and I'm bored so I'll walk you through my reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    You even said yourself that they made the decision because "they realize it doesn't pan out the way they wanted". Why do you think it didn't pan out? Certainly the player feedback and backlash against the idea had SOME influence on that decision, wouldn't you agree?
    Nope. They changed their fucking minds because they wanted to. "Player backlash" is an invented concern that you use to support your imaginary argument. Developers can do whatever the fuck they want and players don't have a single choice about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    And judging by the way Blizzard devs talked about no-flying, I think it's fair to say that some of them didn't like that they had to go back to having flight in the world.
    You can't know this. Again, presumptuous bullshit.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    And even if we throw away all emotion, you still have to recognize that Pathfinder is knocking out three birds with one stone: They still get to develop and design a world without flying, AND they get to provide a carrot for players that encourages more of that design to be consider. All while still nominally giving players access to flight and quashing complaints about no-flying.
    Pathfinder is fine the way it is, I've never argued it wasn't. But creating an imaginary justification for Blizzard bringing around Pathfinder because it's easier than just designing the game with flying in mind from the beginning is fucking stupid. And stupid arguments bother me, sorry (not sorry).

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Even if it has nothing to do with throwing a "because fuck you" at players, you have to at least see how it is still practically and effectively a no-flying World of Warcraft. Do you really think that's coincidence?
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    That it's like that just because the devs decided to set it up that way? Or is it more plausible that someone or multiple someones with authority is married to the idea of No-flying to such a degree that they're still imposing the idea?
    I don't know. You don't know. I don't understand why you're asking questions neither of us can answer. And more importantly, I'd like to shoot back at an earlier reply I had in this thread: Who fucking cares?
    Last edited by otaXephon; 2019-05-20 at 02:57 AM.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Developers can do whatever the fuck they want and players don't have a single choice about it.
    Yes, in absolute terms, devs can do whatever they want. But not without facing the consequences of their actions. WoD was designed around the entire philosophy of a WoW without flight. Players didn't like it. The devs realized this, and in order to protect their game and their business, they made a decision to alter the delivery of no-flying just enough to slip it past.

    That's Pathfinder.


    Sorry, we're done here. I'm tired of arguing with people who only want to be angry that someone is disagreeing with them. Your entire point of view is based on the idea that a multi-million dollar leading software development company does things at random, by coincidence. And you have the balls to call people that disagree with that stupid.

    And rather than have a reasonable discussion, you just want people to shut up because "who fucking cares". Why are you even here? Uhg...welcome to ignore. You clearly aren't contributing anything of value to the discussion, and are just seeking to irritate and anger people. There's a word for that(which is mind-bogglingly not allowed) that starts with the letter T. I encourage everyone who interacts with you in this thread to report and ignore.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-05-20 at 03:48 AM.

  10. #230
    Way to take the classy route and encourage people to report me for disagreeing with you. Have a nice life, dude-who-blocked me.

    For the record, I don't want anybody to "shut up." I just want them to stop tossing around baseless, completely unnecessary conspiracy theories about the reasoning Blizzard has for doing the things it does. There's absolutely zero tangible evidence to support a theory that Blizzard introduced Pathfinder solely because of negative player feedback. Yeah, some people were upset that flying got removed in WoD but pro-flying advocates like to attribute the entire 5 million sub loss drop after WoD's launch to no-flying and that's just crazy talk. I wager a vast majority of players could have cared one way or the other. (Hence, who cares?) It's only in these topics that you find people acting like Blizzard was playing some kind of fucked up game of 4D chess to deceive its playerbase into thinking they had planned everything from the beginning and that they just can't bare the thought of looking like they're incompetent.

    It's not that complicated.
    Last edited by otaXephon; 2019-05-20 at 03:57 AM.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    This is very strange to me.

    Some of the posters here claim that blizzard grounded players to increase play time, at the same time, they claim that wow classic pacing is how the game is suppose to be.

    Inconsistency at a retard level.
    Not really.

    Once you let the genie out of the bottle you cant just put it back in.

    They had no problem selling flying as a feature of TBC and taking our money with flying store mounts.

    But now its a problem because ImMeRsIoN making my hundreds of flying mounts no more useless than pretty icons
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  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Th is is flat out false. During MOP, you had thread after thread in the official forums wanting flying removed form the game. This is a factor in Blizzard's initial decision to delay flying until a future patch. People absolutely were complaining about flying and many who complained wanted it gone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Sorry, not proved at all. You making baseless declarations does not = proof.
    but... but... but... we actually see their decisions in game. for the last 5+ years. How's that a "baseless declaration"? (i know you're a well known Blizz apologist, who never discusses anything, just vaguely refutes, so, please, go on. You'll win the internetz with me)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Your assertion does not make it a fact. The fact that an expansion exists is not proof of anything, lmfao. You're just bolstering your own shitty opinion with the oh-so-fucking-original cynicism that the only reason Blizzard ever does or doesn't do anything is because fuck you.

    Get over it, dude.
    What assertion? We have 5 years of decisions made and how things ended up. I think it's enough info and enough PR talk all these years to be able to see their BS.
    /spit@Blizzard

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    What assertion? We have 5 years of decisions made and how things ended up. I think it's enough info and enough PR talk all these years to be able to see their BS.
    I was gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you actually thought a bit about this but I guess you are literally saying that because the expansions exist, it's self-evident that Blizzard is bullshitting us? Is that really what you're going with? o_o

  14. #234
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You were talking about zones that required flying, and I've shown you zones that required flying. If it's "end-game content" or not doesn't matter. And there's no flight path to Skywall. You might be confusing with the "rescue Thrall" questline where an air elemental flies you there for the quest.
    Dude there is a flight to the skybreaker, in icecrown
    also no quests send you up to the skywall, other then the dungeon, so nah, you dont need flying there.
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2019-05-20 at 06:21 AM.

  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Way to take the classy route and encourage people to report me for disagreeing with you. Have a nice life, dude-who-blocked me.

    For the record, I don't want anybody to "shut up." I just want them to stop tossing around baseless, completely unnecessary conspiracy theories about the reasoning Blizzard has for doing the things it does. There's absolutely zero tangible evidence to support a theory that Blizzard introduced Pathfinder solely because of negative player feedback. Yeah, some people were upset that flying got removed in WoD but pro-flying advocates like to attribute the entire 5 million sub loss drop after WoD's launch to no-flying and that's just crazy talk. I wager a vast majority of players could have cared one way or the other. (Hence, who cares?) It's only in these topics that you find people acting like Blizzard was playing some kind of fucked up game of 4D chess to deceive its playerbase into thinking they had planned everything from the beginning and that they just can't bare the thought of looking like they're incompetent.

    It's not that complicated.
    You must be very gullible to imagine that Ion goes and announces no-flying for WoD and the rest of expansions in that Polygon interview and no later than a month (cba to find the dates) he and the rest of the devs "just changed their minds".
    Your narrative is : A multimillion successful gaming company (back then, now it's small indie /s) has devs that decide on a matter on a whim and like days later they change their mind. And this has happened without any player feedback or uproar because of the first announcement. Right. But it's all baseless assumptions, assertions and conspiracy theory. Right, again.

    Dunno about you, but i tend to believe that in companies of such scale, nothing happens on a vacuum and based on whim or personal preference. Hell, even a blue post has acknowledged there were pro and anti flyers in the dev team, and the pathfinder was a child born because of passionate discussion.

    https://blizzardwatch.com/2015/06/10...oming-draenor/

    (Yeah, those weeks of backlash never shaped the pathfinder decision. Just Ion's whim. LOL)

    https://www.polygon.com/2015/6/10/87...c-mac-blizzard

    (Yeap, whithin a month)

    Funnily enough, both those articles have a link to the official announcement of the introduction of Pathfinder in WoD which is now... an Error 404 page. Feel free to find it elsewhere and post it. If you dare.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    I was gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you actually thought a bit about this but I guess you are literally saying that because the expansions exist, it's self-evident that Blizzard is bullshitting us? Is that really what you're going with? o_o
    No, i'm literally saying is the decisions Blizz made those 5 years prove the point. And your sophism won't win with me, sorry. Stop dodging.
    /spit@Blizzard

  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    Dunno about you, but i tend to believe that in companies of such scale, nothing happens on a vacuum and based on whim or personal preference. Hell, even a blue post has acknowledged there were pro and anti flyers in the dev team, and the pathfinder was a child born because of passionate discussion.

    Funnily enough, both those articles have a link to the official announcement of the introduction of Pathfinder in WoD which is now... an Error 404 page. Feel free to find it elsewhere and post it. If you dare.
    First the link on site news to the announcement of Draenor Pathfinder: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ing-in-Draenor

    Second, I've always thought from what I remember of the tweets and blue posts of that period that the developers were desperate for someone to come up with something...anything...that might resemble a compromise and resolve the impasse. Companies of scale can move pretty quickly if someone has a bright idea although it was a mystery to me that they took so long to figure this one out as many had suggested something similar. Whether it was Chilton's decision to go ahead with it (he was game director at that point) or something else doesn't matter. It is the nature of Gordian Knots to be resolved suddenly.

    It's also worth commenting that this was still the time after which GC had left and Blizzard's communications on just about everything were hilariously and incompetently confused. There were clear examples at the time of the various developer's tweeting out one thing or another that directly contradicted something another developer had just tweeted out. Blizzard may be a company of scale, no argument there, but at that time they were clearly out of their depths on not only how to communicate to players but to one another. So there may never be a clear history of what really happened with this.

    I'm still somewhat baffled that after almost five years on this there are still some that believe that forum posts are going to change anyone's mind about this. I suppose that given Blizzard's rather mercurial decision-making there is still hope that there can be an influence but at this point I don't think the devs are really paying any attention to this argument. Even now most of the passion about flying on this site is wrapped up in a dozen or so posters. It's passionate enough but there's no sign that any sort of populist movement is afoot. If the Pathfinder thing is truly that objectionable I would guess that people have long left and whatever price was to be paid for that has been paid in full years ago.

    EDIT: My on-topic comments about the thread are earlier (#35). TL-DR is that Blizzard has all sorts of reasons for why they do things and usually only communicate some of them. The only further comment I have about the op is that there seems to be a belief stated that simplifying the QA for zones and making them less susceptible to bugs is some bad thing. That's arguable but irrelevant at this point as zones are stood up now for flying, bugs included. So making a case about something that happened years ago is sort of a waste of time. Put it down to the nature of forums I guess.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2019-05-20 at 07:20 AM.
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  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Kataroku View Post
    If you can recall, flying was disabled in WoD because it would break phasing as well as some quest and cinematic triggers. Remember the PTR servers where flight was enabled and how painfully obvious it was that WoD wasn't designed with flight in mind at all?

    Player feedback - regarding how great MoP's Timeless Isle content was - simply gave Blizzard a convenient excuse to keep everyone grounded in order to cut corners and push the already-delayed expansion out sooner.

    To add to this, Tanaan Jungle was so vastly incomplete at launch, that they placed an impenetrable dome over it and people still found ways of getting inside.

    Given how time-poor the development team were at getting content out the door - as Legion's development was already underway - Blizzard had initially decided to disable flight for the entire expansion rather than test and fix everything that flying broke.

    I'm tired of reading that pathfinder was introduced to reinvigorate world PvP and exploration, because it wasn't. That's the corporate spiel trying to cover up the fact that disabling flight substantially reduces the amount of testing that needs to be done prior to launch.

    Any praise of the pathfinder achievement only emboldens Blizzard's decision to cut corners, which could partially explain why the game is where it's at today.

    EDIT: This isn't a thread about pro / anti flight. Too many people repeat the rhetoric that Blizzard did this for the player's benefit, which isn't true, and I'm setting the record straight.
    I absolutely agree with you.

    Also @ lol at all these people, it seems like 90% of the posters here haven't read your thread at all

  18. #238
    I notice that a lot of the idiots that praise Classic for being about the journey and not the destination are the same people who bitch about not getting to fly in newer expansions. I truly don't understand you. Either you want exploration or you want to throw exploration out for the convenience of flight. Flying in WoW 100% removes the sense of exploration.

  19. #239
    Herald of the Titans Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    I totally agree OP. I'm still waiting on that epic quest line that they claimed they were looking to do to make flying "a more interesting reward to unlock" instead of just spending gold. I guess they forgot about that after they had no intention of having flight in WoD and had to last minute panic fix Draenor and slap it on an achievement due to the backlash.
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  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I'm still somewhat baffled that after almost five years on this there are still some that believe that forum posts are going to change anyone's mind about this.
    I don't know about anyone else, but for me at least, it's more about discussing the entire design philosophy and way that Blizzard views and treats its customers than being specifically about flight. And to a lesser degree how players view and treat Blizzard.

    Pathfinder is certainly a popular point to argue over, and it does illustrate pretty well some of the deep flaws with the way Blizzard approaches the open world content. I don't think anyone could really dispute that WoW has some of the best instanced content available in the genre, but the open world has been exceptionally shallow for a long time now.

    Personally I think including flight in a more integrated manner would help, but that's not necessarily the only way to do it. Talking about Pathfinder and flying just highlights a lot of the issues. Unfortunately we get people who seem more intent on stirring up anger than on having a real discussion. The difference in discussion between myself and Jastall, and myself and otaXephon, for example.

    Overall, I think we're going to see potentially see some changes after 8.2. Blizzard seems to have been receptive to criticism of major expansion features such as Azerite armor and the HoA. And they also seem to be open to the flight issue, allowing it in both Mechagon and Nazjatar. The type of open world content seems to be hitting both the exploration points with secrets and treasures, as well as both targeted progression in Nazjatar, and open field timeless-isle style content with Mechagon.

    I'm REALLY hoping Blizzard doesn't backslide, and carries the more complex and engaging open world design for zones into 8.3. But man...if they release ANOTHER no-fly island...bah. Formula formula formula. It will just prove what I've been saying all along about stagnation in their design.

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