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  1. #121
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pungent Reek View Post
    No.

    /10 char.
    as someone who got a few million gold from the garrison using these missions... it literally did nothing. the token did nothing with it, the gold missions is why
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    as someone who got a few million gold from the garrison using these missions... it literally did nothing. the token did nothing with it, the gold missions is why
    Real talk, do you still have that gold? I was wondering how many people still got that gold as of today. While playing the game (raiding, flasks, food etc), spending on game time or balance, or mounts or other vanity. And if people who still hold onto gold and don't spend it should really count? Because if you don't spend it, then that gold basically doesn't exist. Right? Gold has value the moment you spend it, not while rotting in your pocket. I think.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    Oh really?

    The devs told many times how they don't like flying because it makes the world smaller and you and just skip mobs. Pathfinder is compromise. it is sold as a compromise, in reality the players were scammed*. He is not lying. I don't recall anything about wPvP, but I am not a wpvp-er so...
    Also PLAYERS are regurgirating this ALL the TIME.

    Scammed: remember when the devs were like: This expectation from us to deliver an expansion every year is impossible. Players were like: say waaaa? (THIS IS HOW WE GOT WOD )
    Same with flying: devs: Uhm, turns out flying is a problem?!?!?!?!? players: uhm, no, not really?
    Same with Master looter: Guys! Guys!!!! Turns out master loot is bad and it's NASTY!? Players: Huh?
    Devs: Turns out tier sets are boring? We're happy to help with azerite! Players: ......................

    Funny isn't? This was all the devs selling you turd as gold.

    The playerbase was scammed so many times but who counts really. From literelly EVERY SINGLE proposition like this the players came out poorer, thinking they at least got a compromise.
    Flying doesn't make the world smaller. It can make it appear smaller because you're not having to interact with everything between two points, but portals do the same thing, as do summons, or flight paths. The argument that dev made was predicated on the assumption that everything between two points is always worth interacting with, or would always been interesting to a player. It also assumes that skipping content or mobs is always bad. And assumes that Blizzard content and encounter designers didn't have ways to mitigate or counteract flight without removing it completely.

    All in all, the reasons given for why flight is supposedly bad for WoW are not honest ones. This is the type of thing I think you're referring to, and I agree with it. Pathfinder was just the easy way out, and lying about its reasons was likewise easier than being honest.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    as someone who got a few million gold from the garrison using these missions... it literally did nothing. the token did nothing with it, the gold missions is why
    The gold token was a pretty typical "kill two birds with one stone" move. It curtailed and controlled 3rd party RMT, while making Blizzard profit at the same time.

    I actually agree that the token had very little effect on the in-game economy. The token doesn't actually generate or remove gold from the system. It's just a method of moving gold from one player to another.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-05-17 at 11:34 PM.
    Happiness is peace in motion.

  4. #124
    The Lightbringer Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Designing quests and map layouts in 2D is far easier, and thus cheaper, than doing it in 3D. That's the only reason for delaying flight; all the ZOMG IDD TRUVIALESE TEH UPEN WARLD blathering can be safely dismissed, because Devs could come with *gasp* quests that require flight instead of being trivialised by it. They just choose not to do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Thrall will humblebrag about how he doesn't want it [to be Warchief].
    Saurfang'll probably die or say he's 'too tired'.
    Baine will gasp for air as he plops Anduin's boot out of his mouth and say 'I'll be High King of the Horde!'.

  5. #125
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    Real talk, do you still have that gold? I was wondering how many people still got that gold as of today. While playing the game (raiding, flasks, food etc), spending on game time or balance, or mounts or other vanity. And if people who still hold onto gold and don't spend it should really count? Because if you don't spend it, then that gold basically doesn't exist. Right? Gold has value the moment you spend it, not while rotting in your pocket. I think.
    I spent my 5 million i had made in wod (before that having like 500k tops at times)

    on tokens, i bought tons of tokens, and it wasnt till the end of legion when my tokens ran out, i then spent tons of gold on stuff like the lightforged warframe.


    so these days i have 1.6 mil, after having spent 800k on tokens... then right away getting a job on youtube and no longer needing to save money... so... uhh... that was stupid of me.

    also yeah ALOT on flasks, food, etc and stuff in legion, and i also spent like 150k on that really cool puzzle box trinket in BFA when it first launched
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  6. #126
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intropid View Post
    I disagree with you, but regardless, you didn't propose a solution. Do you think flying should be enabled from an expansions start? Do you think it should just cost gold? Do you think flying should be completely disabled? There isn't any point in criticizing or complaining in a feature without offering potential solutions.

    1) he didn't make a point you can disagree with really
    2) He's right. WoD wasn't designed to be viewed from the air initially. That saved the team a lot of time in design and rendering. it may be news to some, but a lot of things weren't ever designed to be viewed from the air and look weird if you do (Silvermoon, for example). The upside is that you save time creating those views. The downside is... well you can't enable flight.

    For those white knights... this isn't Blizzard hate, it's just the way it was.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pungent Reek View Post
    See, and what's funny about this is that people wanted it like that - so many people complained about flying t...
    There was never a large number of these people and the obvious response to them was... "wait, you hate the game with flying, it ruins the game for you but here you are after SEVEN YEARS?"

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    Oh really?

    The devs told many times how they don't like flying because it makes the world smaller and you and just skip mobs. Pathfinder is compromise. it is sold as a compromise, in reality the players were scammed*. He is not lying. I don't recall anything about wPvP, but I am not a wpvp-er so...
    Also PLAYERS are regurgirating this ALL the TIME.

    Scammed: remember when the devs were like: This expectation from us to deliver an expansion every year is impossible. Players were like: say waaaa? (THIS IS HOW WE GOT WOD )
    Same with flying: devs: Uhm, turns out flying is a problem?!?!?!?!? players: uhm, no, not really?
    Same with Master looter: Guys! Guys!!!! Turns out master loot is bad and it's NASTY!? Players: Huh?
    Devs: Turns out tier sets are boring? We're happy to help with azerite! Players: ......................

    Funny isn't? This was all the devs selling you turd as gold.

    The playerbase was scammed so many times but who counts really. From literelly EVERY SINGLE proposition like this the players came out poorer, thinking they at least got a compromise.
    Now you are spewing the same BS the OP is. He is lying and you are swearing to a lie. They never said one word about PvP in regards to flying. Also, it was ION who stated that he did not like the fact that people immediately got flying and skipped over content. He also said that flying needed to feel like a reward. Finally, he stated that the deve were deeply divided on the subject of flying and that pathfinder satisfied the devs who wanted to do without flying to get flying back in the game because they got hit with a hard rebuke of their "NO flying in WOW going forward" announcement. Hence, a compromise. Your claim = BS

    Second, the 1 expansion a year was an internal expectation, and Blizzard never said it was an expectation from players. Blizzard also is on record saying this. Your claim = BS

    Thrid, Master Looter was removed based on the internal data they had amassed about it and all the complaints and reports they got about it. Your claim = BS.

    The 4th one is complete BS because that is not what they said at all.


    So, the OP lies and you swear to it becuase you both want to push that narrative. But it is BS no matter how many times you repeat it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosteye View Post
    And there are just as many WPVP people who are OK with flight.

    OP clearly stated he wasn't taking a pro/anti flight stance (and therefore didn't offer a solution). He's merely stating that flying was disabled so Blizzard could cut corners and design their zones with flying accessibility as an afterthought (or not at all).
    He was trying to call his opinion a fact. There isn't ant evidence to back his claim up. He is trying to push his narrative as fact.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    The playerbase was scammed so many times but who counts really. From literelly EVERY SINGLE proposition like this the players came out poorer, thinking they at least got a compromise.
    You make a good point.

    They're like real-estate agents trying to sell a house. They use the sales tactic of turning every negative into a positive; "Oh, this room is really small BUT you can knock down that wall..." despite knowing that the wall they're pointing to is not only load-bearing but also houses all of the plumbing from upstairs.

    Instead of admitting that they simply ran out of time, they want to appear as though it was a conscious decision from the very start to enhance the worldly experience.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Kataroku View Post
    I'm setting the record straight.
    What would we do without you? Thank you for your great contribution to humanity. I feel better about my life now that random internet guy has given us the real scoop on why Blizzard approaches flying the way it does!

    p.s. This may come across as sarcasm but I am completely serious.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    I feel better about my life now that random internet guy has given us the real scoop on why Blizzard approaches flying the way it does!
    That's the spirit! Now go out there and share what you've learned!

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Now you are spewing the same BS the OP is. He is lying and you are swearing to a lie. They never said one word about PvP in regards to flying.
    Good. I didn't say either? I specifically said that I don't wPvP so I don't know. I only quoted your post because of that part about lying I copypasted in my previous reply to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Also, it was ION who stated that he did not like the fact that people immediately got flying and skipped over content. He also said that flying needed to feel like a reward.
    I said the same? I said "devs" but Ion is at the steering wheel and I kinda don't know all the devs names? So I used "devs"? Not sure where the "lie" is.


    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Finally, he stated that the deve were deeply divided on the subject of flying and that pathfinder satisfied the devs who wanted to do without flying to get flying back in the game because they got hit with a hard rebuke of their "NO flying in WOW going forward" announcement. Hence, a compromise. Your claim = BS
    This is exactly what we are talking about: believing every single word Ion says. Can you imagine what would have happened if they didn't backtrack on the no-flying-ever statement back then? The players rioted. Literally. The forums were full of people demanding flying back. In a disaster expansion like WoD. But you know what? They KNEW before giving out the statement that the players will riot. No dev can be that ignorant and stupid to not know. They knew it and they still went ahead with it. They manipulated their playerbase. Know why? To enforce Pathfinder. Remember the backlash of the ingame store back in wrath? The Retarded Horse? That was back in wrath. Today? Nobody bats an eye, yet another store mount, whatevs. Imagine TOKENS in wrath. Same with the pathfinder. Back then it was a HUGE deal. So they had to soften up the playerbase. They softened us well enough with the "no flying ever" bait. It was a bait. ANYTHING IS BETTER THAN NOT HAVING FLYING. And yes, it was a compromise. FOR THE PLAYERBASE. The devs got to keep everything and even more. Flying doesn't really exist at this point in current content (and who cares about old content?) because the gating. Devs kept everything, players gave up flying in current content. Same scenario with everything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Second, the 1 expansion a year was an internal expectation, and Blizzard never said it was an expectation from players. Blizzard also is on record saying this. Your claim = BS
    I'm not saying the players directly expected this. They wanted to give us annual expansions because of the content drought. Who "suffer" from content drought? THE PLAYERS. Right. So for us to not suffer from droughts (WHY IS IT A DROUGHT, BLIZZARD - literally every single expansion), they wanted to give US annual expansions. So this is meant to address US, OUR problems. The last interview about this came out in the end of warlords, and they still say "*sad dev face* warlords lacked content because we expected Legion to come out sooner *sad dev face*".
    Oh btw just when will you notice the pattern with the excuses... or "explanations"?

    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    , Master Looter was removed based on the internal data they had amassed about it and all the complaints and reports they got about it. Your claim = BS.
    And a blizzard dev says my mom is missis Jesus herself. You really believe word to word everything they say, don't you. Actions speak louder than any word. And their actions contradict what they say. (Azerite vs tier sets, flying vs. map layout possibilities without it etcetc)


    Edit: have you ever seen a political movie, or a movie about high stakes and multibillionare companies sending out their PR man to do interviews? How these PR guys hold the shit in fron of the gates to not flood over with saying half truths and white lies? You should watch some. Other than Ion. REally, It would be good for you.
    Last edited by Lei; 2019-05-18 at 02:09 AM.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    They manipulated their playerbase.
    @rrayy

    To reinforce this point, lets look at how successful the claims about what Pathfinder was meant to accomplish were.

    "Makes obtaining flight feel like a reward" - virtually everyone I talk to, except the most hardcore Blizzard apologists, admit that by the time they finally get to fly they're sick of the ground. That no-flying far outstays its welcome, and that finally getting it back is a palpable feeling of relief that they don't have to deal with the ground nonsense any longer.

    Not only that, but the actual payout for doing the work of Pathfinder is gated and delayed beyond any reasonable amout of time. To the extent that by the time you get it the value of the "reward" has been largely mitigated and atrophied.

    This leads into....

    "Pathfinder is a compromise" - It's only a compromise in the most technical sense of the word. By delaying the unlock for so long, Blizzard gains everything they want out of a flightless world, but gives up almost nothing. As above: By the time you get flight, the only thing it's fully good for are alts, which further benefits Blizzard! Virtually everything else you'd use flight for on a main....you will have already done.

    The benefit that the player gets in this compromise is almost nothing, making it a shit "compromise".

    "No flying allows blizzard to create more interesting and engaging content" - I believe it was Ion who said that, although it might have been Lore. All I can say is: Where is it? The open world has been a series of copy/pasted kill-x quests and mindless, shallow WQs. Even the story quests while leveling have not been particularly engaging outside of a few exceptions such as the Suramar.

    It's possible that Mechagon and Nazjatar could change this, but Id still have to ask why we don't get engaging content in the open world until nearly a year after the expansion launch?!

    Overall, Patnfinder is a failure for players. It needs to be removed or taken back to the drawing board to be remade into something more player friendly.
    Happiness is peace in motion.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    @rrayy

    To reinforce this point, lets look at how successful the claims about what Pathfinder was meant to accomplish were.

    "Makes obtaining flight feel like a reward" - virtually everyone I talk to, except the most hardcore Blizzard apologists, admit that by the time they finally get to fly they're sick of the ground. That no-flying far outstays its welcome, and that finally getting it back is a palpable feeling of relief that they don't have to deal with the ground nonsense any longer.

    Not only that, but the actual payout for doing the work of Pathfinder is gated and delayed beyond any reasonable amout of time. To the extent that by the time you get it the value of the "reward" has been largely mitigated and atrophied.

    This leads into....

    "Pathfinder is a compromise" - It's only a compromise in the most technical sense of the word. By delaying the unlock for so long, Blizzard gains everything they want out of a flightless world, but gives up almost nothing. As above: By the time you get flight, the only thing it's fully good for are alts, which further benefits Blizzard! Virtually everything else you'd use flight for on a main....you will have already done.

    The benefit that the player gets in this compromise is almost nothing, making it a shit "compromise".

    "No flying allows blizzard to create more interesting and engaging content" - I believe it was Ion who said that, although it might have been Lore. All I can say is: Where is it? The open world has been a series of copy/pasted kill-x quests and mindless, shallow WQs. Even the story quests while leveling have not been particularly engaging outside of a few exceptions such as the Suramar.

    It's possible that Mechagon and Nazjatar could change this, but Id still have to ask why we don't get engaging content in the open world until nearly a year after the expansion launch?!

    Overall, Patnfinder is a failure for players. It needs to be removed or taken back to the drawing board to be remade into something more player friendly.
    this, but the time/cost advantage blizzard get from it will ensure that they never gonna go back unless a super huge backlash happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Clearly you didn't. Where did I say anything about mining? Really...wtf?


    World quests and leveling quests in BfA started out weak and shallow. It's the same garbage we've seen for the past decade. There's no challenge. There's nothing interesting to discover. It's just a series of Kill-X or Collect-X quests. We might as well be playing an AFK facebook game.

    Maybe....MAYBE 8.2 will provide something a little more interesting. But that doesn't excuse the delay of finishing pathfinder for almost an entire year after the launch of the expansion. Nazjatar and Mechagon will be completely separate zones. What is the explaination for delaying flight in Zandalar or Kul'Tiras for so long? There isn't one. It's just Blizzard stretching weak content with pathfinder, making a list of nonsense tasks that don't even give a reward once you've done them.

    Pathfinder needs to go. Or at the very least be a zone by zone basis.

    But I doubt you'll even read or consider any of this.
    Well you quoted me about an answer to Kalium’s post who was complaining he couldn’t mine without having to cross the way of mobs and that il was an absolute nightmare to him.
    World content has never really been challenging post vanilla. And it has always been about loot x’,, kill x. Bfa and legion have more différent type of quests than you ever had.
    Wod had some treasures to find wich became a sad click and collect once flying was unlocked.

    What I’m saying from the start is that flying should be unlocked at least after the first content patch, but not before especially not at start or ding max level and not in a new zone until next patch. Else it makes the World useless. And We should simply add a button « complete quest »

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    . Else it makes the World useless. And We should simply add a button « complete quest »
    No. Shitty, halfassed quest and design makes the open world useless. Instead of blaming flight for it, you should be going to the source.

    This is a point that, unfortunately, I keep having to make. There may have been minor improvements here and there in the open world, but by taking the path of regressing back to a design that doesn't use flight, it's setting a theme of weakness that over-relies on uncreative and formulaic design instead of peogression and innovation.

    It's not that flying ruins the open world. It's that Blizzard gave up and stopped trying to make it better. Pathfinder just does an amazing job of covering up and distracting players from that simple fact.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-05-18 at 10:06 AM.
    Happiness is peace in motion.

  16. #136
    I think the Pathfinder is good middle ground between people who would prefer not to have flying at all, and those who want it in the game. And as a bonus, it also gives you something additional to work for and unlock. A win-win situation.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    I think the Pathfinder is good middle ground between people who would prefer not to have flying at all, and those who want it in the game. And as a bonus, it also gives you something additional to work for and unlock. A win-win situation.
    Can you explain your reasoning? Because if you read my post 4 above yours on this same page, I lay out why Pathfinder is actually kind of bad. I'd be curious to know why you view it as being either "good" or a "middle ground". Because from what I've seen it's neither of those things.
    Happiness is peace in motion.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Now you are spewing the same BS the OP is. He is lying and you are swearing to a lie. They never said one word about PvP in regards to flying. Also, it was ION who stated that he did not like the fact that people immediately got flying and skipped over content. He also said that flying needed to feel like a reward. Finally, he stated that the deve were deeply divided on the subject of flying and that pathfinder satisfied the devs who wanted to do without flying to get flying back in the game because they got hit with a hard rebuke of their "NO flying in WOW going forward" announcement. Hence, a compromise. Your claim = BS

    Second, the 1 expansion a year was an internal expectation, and Blizzard never said it was an expectation from players. Blizzard also is on record saying this. Your claim = BS

    Thrid, Master Looter was removed based on the internal data they had amassed about it and all the complaints and reports they got about it. Your claim = BS.

    The 4th one is complete BS because that is not what they said at all.


    So, the OP lies and you swear to it becuase you both want to push that narrative. But it is BS no matter how many times you repeat it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    He was trying to call his opinion a fact. There isn't ant evidence to back his claim up. He is trying to push his narrative as fact.
    I'd say it's a logical assumption. There isn't really a lot of compelling evidence to the contrary.

    Reasons why he's right about pathfinder being the "lazy-way-out":
    1. WOD was rushed, original capitals were scrapped due to devs being behind.
    2. Tanaan was delayed due to #1 as well
    3. Safe to assume due to #1/#2, zones weren't designed with flying in mind.
    4. Also due to lack of content in WOD they wanted us to consume it "slower" on the ground.

    I'd really like to see the argument to the contrary. I just don't see how Pathfinder was actually necessary or justified for their actual reason/explanation. It doesn't add up or make sense when flying just "worked" since TBC, and nobody complained except a minority of WPVPers (others like myself actually didn't mind it).

    Can you give me a list of good reasons why flying was actually disabled for the reasons they say? Honestly it feels like people clinging to this notion are doing it out of "fanboy-ism". Don't get me wrong, I appreciate when Blizzard does things right (they do many times), but I'm not afraid to call BS on things either. Let's break down the OP's initial statement:

    If you can recall, flying was disabled in WoD because it would break phasing as well as some quest and cinematic triggers. Remember the PTR servers where flight was enabled and how painfully obvious it was that WoD wasn't designed with flight in mind at all?
    1. The only thing that might make the smallest bit of sense was the cinematic cutscenes as you approach certain areas. Sure -- I will give them that. This is almost entirely exclusive to the leveling process though. They could have EASILY disabled flying until you reached 100 and completed the main questlines (a "soft" pathfinder at worst). There was no logical reason to make pathfinder as tedious as it was, and keep it from us for so long.


    At any rate, I don't really care if they turn flying ON or OFF, but I wish they would just stick to their guns. I would rather have no flying at all, than having to wait halfway through an expansion and do a tedious chore list to enable flying. You used to just train flying at max level after you played through the game once - I thought that was good enough.
    So you could say I am "IDGAF about Flying, but ANTI-Pathfinder".
    Last edited by Frosteye; 2019-05-18 at 03:37 PM.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Frosteye View Post
    I'd say it's a logical assumption. There isn't really a lot of compelling evidence to the contrary.

    Reasons why he's right about pathfinder being the "lazy-way-out":
    1. WOD was rushed, original capitals were scrapped due to devs being behind.
    2. Tanaan was delayed due to #1 as well
    3. Safe to assume due to #1/#2, zones weren't designed with flying in mind.
    4. Also due to lack of content in WOD they wanted us to consume it "slower" on the ground.

    I'd really like to see the argument to the contrary. I just don't see how Pathfinder was actually necessary or justified for their actual reason/explanation.
    You assert all that without evidence. So your claim can be dismissed without evidence.

    It is not a "logical" assumption. Just an assumption. You then draw conclusions from your assumptions, without any actual facts in there. That's not a shaky argument in the same way a pile of cards on the ground is not a wobbly card house.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    You assert all that without evidence. So your claim can be dismissed without evidence.

    It is not a "logical" assumption. Just an assumption. You then draw conclusions from your assumptions, without any actual facts in there. That's not a shaky argument in the same way a pile of cards on the ground is not a wobbly card house.
    My assumptions with supporting arguments are better than your complete lack of any argument at all. Are they logical or not? that might be in the eye of the beholder sure.

    Unless you want to make your own argument and give me reasons why you think you're right, then move along

    OP is not taking any particular stance on flight, he is merely pointing out that Pathfinder wasn't implemented for the actual reasons they stated. I think his arguments for that opinion are quite good, and I have yet to see anyone put forth a reasonable counter-argument besides "You're wrong".

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