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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    The playerbase wants it that way. Loads of people who do open world content don't want to be challenged at all, case in point the Kirin Tor WQs that were hated by some because anything more than killing X or filling Y bar confused players.
    This is predicated on the idea that existing grounded content is challenging, which it isn't. Therefore, if the existing content is already NOT challenging, where's the harm of allowing flight?

    Now, having just said that, I don't think the solution is to just slap flying back into the game without any consideration. I've repeated this many times across many threads, but I think the solution is to create content that acknowledges, or even uses, flying from the beginning. And I don't mean just giving flight to people from the beginning of the expansion for gold. I mean designing the open world so that a flying player CAN'T just swoop in and ignore everything while clicking 3 buttons then leaving.

    This is going to require Blizzard completely overhauling the fundamental game mechanics of how flying and their quest design and encounters work. It's not going to be easy, or quick. But the alternative is just more piles and piles of "Kill-X" quests with facade barriers between zones. If they DON'T start innovating with the open world, the game will continue to lose players as the design stagnates more and more.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Besides that, flying itself is also a total band-aid. It's not an interesting design, you just noclip through all the things with almost no limitations. You can give me the most high-quality content in the universe, but if I can noclip to the reward I'll maybe do the content once then skip it afterwards, and WoW has literally always been a rewards-based game as an MMO. Anything to "make it more interesting" would just be an added hassle, such as cannons that dismount you or airborne enemies. We had an environment that kinda simulated a flying zone in design, it was Vash'jir, and while the place is pretty its gameplay was disliked by most, yours truly very much included. If flying required skill and had cool mechanics supplemented by the level design like the gliding in the Arkham games, the grappling hook in Just Cause 2 or the blinking in Dishonored then I'd be all for it being available day 1, but in the state its in where it renders level design completely meaningless? Na, I'm OK with a bit of a delay.

    Oof...a lot to unpack here.

    I agree that current flight mechanics are not interesting. They're basically the same mechanics that were originally introduced back in TBC. That's one problem.

    Next is what you mentioned about skipping to the reward. I think a lot of that has just as much to do with how simple the quest design is. There ARE ways to do this without just annoying players with canons or dismounts. It can be done with a mix of indoor/outdoor areas. It can be done by quests that have objectives that don't spawn until other conditions are met, such as a boss not spawning until several minions are killed first. It can be done via environmental hazards or terrain, or ranged mobs. It could USE flying with things like timers or races, where a player needs to be in certain places at certain times. There ARE ways to do it if Blizzard is willing to get creative; which they sadly haven't been, lately. And as I already mentioned: Even if Blizzard doesn't use flying, quest design still needs to improve and provide challenge, even on the ground!

    Vashj'ir: I think the lion's share of why Vashj'ir was disliked had to do with the oppressive atmosphere and environment. Being under water has an entirely different feeling than being free in the open air. Everything from the types of enemies you're facing, to the foliage, to the sounds. It is not fair to point to Vashj'ir and say "This is why flying environments don't work", because Vashj'ir was not really a flying zone. Granted....some of the underlying mechanics were the same. But why is Vashj'ir the only one singled out for this comparison when zones like Icecrown or Deepholme were not? I'd suggest it had more to do with the underwater theme than anything else.





    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Pathfinder is fine in theory because not being to fly at first does make you explore the nooks and crannies and learn the routes through the levels. The implementation is the problem, it should be available in the .1 patch, not the .2 one, and tied more to questing and exploration achievements than reputation ones. But it's still better than brainless shit like Cata leveling. My word that was a disjointed mess, and flying invalidating the terrain instantly did not help.
    I agree to an extent. But instead of just using the forumula of "Do the ground first, then return and do the same ground stuff later....just with flying", I'd like to see flying unlock additional areas and content once it's obtained. Have it actually be part of progression that takes your character FORWARD instead of just being a shortcut to go BACKWARDS to areas you're probably already sick of. If that was what was waiting for players after completing Pathfinder, I think it would be much more acceptable.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-05-19 at 03:16 AM.
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  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    1) he didn't make a point you can disagree with really
    2) He's right. WoD wasn't designed to be viewed from the air initially. That saved the team a lot of time in design and rendering. it may be news to some, but a lot of things weren't ever designed to be viewed from the air and look weird if you do (Silvermoon, for example). The upside is that you save time creating those views. The downside is... well you can't enable flight.

    For those white knights... this isn't Blizzard hate, it's just the way it was.

    - - - Updated - - -



    There was never a large number of these people and the obvious response to them was... "wait, you hate the game with flying, it ruins the game for you but here you are after SEVEN YEARS?"
    wod was actuallty deisnged knowing players could use things to get high into the sky, nothing in wod was a "facade" like silvermoon
    HOWEVER as flying was not planned, there was invisible walls EVERYWHERE and the skybox was a MESS, flying skyboxes are usually flat boxes, or domes. wods was just a mess of boxes and domes and walls etc. cause why waste the time flattening and clearing these walls if... they are not going to effect the player, this was very obvious on the ptr for 6.2 when you could get flying, or with the items we had in wod that allowed flying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  3. #163
    I wasn't aware that Blizzard was trying to change the history of Pathfinder. Could someone please link me where Blizzard said that it was for PvP and what not? I can't find it.
    Last edited by Selah; 2019-05-19 at 05:04 AM.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    This is predicated on the idea that existing grounded content is challenging, which it isn't. Therefore, if the existing content is already NOT challenging, where's the harm of allowing flight?

    Now, having just said that, I don't think the solution is to just slap flying back into the game without any consideration. I've repeated this many times across many threads, but I think the solution is to create content that acknowledges, or even uses, flying from the beginning. And I don't mean just giving flight to people from the beginning of the expansion for gold. I mean designing the open world so that a flying player CAN'T just swoop in and ignore everything while clicking 3 buttons then leaving.

    This is going to require Blizzard completely overhauling the fundamental game mechanics of how flying and their quest design and encounters work. It's not going to be easy, or quick. But the alternative is just more piles and piles of "Kill-X" quests with facade barriers between zones. If they DON'T start innovating with the open world, the game will continue to lose players as the design stagnates more and more.





    Oof...a lot to unpack here.

    I agree that current flight mechanics are not interesting. They're basically the same mechanics that were originally introduced back in TBC. That's one problem.

    Next is what you mentioned about skipping to the reward. I think a lot of that has just as much to do with how simple the quest design is. There ARE ways to do this without just annoying players with canons or dismounts. It can be done with a mix of indoor/outdoor areas. It can be done by quests that have objectives that don't spawn until other conditions are met, such as a boss not spawning until several minions are killed first. It can be done via environmental hazards or terrain, or ranged mobs. It could USE flying with things like timers or races, where a player needs to be in certain places at certain times. There ARE ways to do it if Blizzard is willing to get creative; which they sadly haven't been, lately.

    Vashj'ir: I think the lion's share of why Vashj'ir was disliked had to do with the oppressive atmosphere and environment. Being under water has an entirely different feeling than being free in the open air. Everything from the types of enemies you're facing, to the foliage, to the sounds. It is not fair to point to Vashj'ir and say "This is why flying environments don't work", because Vashj'ir was not really a flying zone. Granted....some of the underlying mechanics were the same. But why is Vashj'ir the only one singled out for this comparison when zones like Icecrown or Deepholme were not? I'd suggest it had more to do with the underwater theme than anything else.







    I agree to an extent. But instead of just using the forumula of "Do the ground first, then return and do the same ground stuff later....just with flying", I'd like to see flying unlock additional areas and content once it's obtained. Have it actually be part of progression that takes your character FORWARD instead of just being a shortcut to go BACKWARDS to areas you're probably already sick of.
    I think the main issue is that the open world just isn't this game's draw and never will be. Blizzard will never be able to match even a fairly mediocre open world such as RAGE 2's, let alone the highly praised behemoths of the genre such as Skyrim's or Witcher 3's. Their ancient engine and having to abide the tenets of an MMO (which equals repeatable content by definition) limits their design space too much, I'd wager, and this game needs to run too many systems at once (raids, M+, arenas, BGs being the big 4) to focus too much development effort on a part of the game the vast majority of players take for granted. Whereas dungeons, raids and large-scale BGs are a forte that WoW has over almost every single game out there.

    And even in these much better open worlds, people skip things. It's no wonder every single open world game since the last 10+ years have had some variant of fast travel. I doubt Blizzard would ever be able to design much that can't be skipped without people complaining about how much of a hassle it would be.

    Vash'jir isn't a perfect example by any means but it's the closest we got to a zone with actual 3d gameplay, every other zone that required flying just had the usual 2d gameplay platforms separated by pits. And IMO the atmosphere was the best thing about the zone. The mob density, 3d combat especially as melee, annoyance to find your objectives, basically everything about the gameplay didn't click with me even if the visuals are some of the most stunning in this game to date.

    I guess Pathfinder could unlock areas, but then the usual muh timegates complaints will occur so eh.

  5. #165
    Banned Frolk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    No, people complained about flight in those too. Especially world pvp people.
    Im sure the remaining gankers, erm """"""""world pvpers"""""""" will be quite upset with the return of flying.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I think the main issue is that the open world just isn't this game's draw and never will be. Blizzard will never be able to match even a fairly mediocre open world such as RAGE 2's, let alone the highly praised behemoths of the genre such as Skyrim's or Witcher 3's. Their ancient engine and having to abide the tenets of an MMO (which equals repeatable content by definition) limits their design space too much, I'd wager, and this game needs to run too many systems at once (raids, M+, arenas, BGs being the big 4) to focus too much development effort on a part of the game the vast majority of players take for granted. Whereas dungeons, raids and large-scale BGs are a forte that WoW has over almost every single game out there.
    I think the popularity of Classic servers might prove otherwise, but I see the point you're making. I have no doubts that providing an interesting and engaging world is possible, even if it does present some challenges to development. But Blizzard has a hisotry of doing things with WoW that even they claimed weren't possible: Cross server tech, matchmaking, LFR, phasing, etc. It's just a matter of whether or not Blizzard is willing to work at it, and I think as long as long as they have inflexible, formulaic, design-by-spreadsheet leadership like Ion, it's not going to happen.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    And even in these much better open worlds, people skip things. It's no wonder every single open world game since the last 10+ years have had some variant of fast travel. I doubt Blizzard would ever be able to design much that can't be skipped without people complaining about how much of a hassle it would be.

    Then stop trying to force players into doing everything! That, more than anything else, is holding WoW back from being better than it is. The reason games like Witcher 3 and Skyrim have fast travel is because they recognize that not everyone wants to do everything. Not everyone enjoys taking a magnifying glass to every pixel of road between points.

    Blizzard is so god damned afraid that players won't appreciate their glorious fields full of pointless trash mobs that they literally don't allow you to bypass any piece of it, even if most of it wasn't interesting in the first place.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Vash'jir isn't a perfect example by any means but it's the closest we got to a zone with actual 3d gameplay, every other zone that required flying just had the usual 2d gameplay platforms separated by pits. And IMO the atmosphere was the best thing about the zone. The mob density, 3d combat especially as melee, annoyance to find your objectives, basically everything about the gameplay didn't click with me even if the visuals are some of the most stunning in this game to date.
    I want you to consider also that Vashj'ir was built using technology and design from 2010. And that since then Blizzard hasn't really tried it again. The technology has come a long way since then. Design theory, UI, server tech, latency, animations. Hell, even their development team probably has mostly different people. Virtually every part of WoW has improved since then. And yet rather than challenging themselves to make another attempt or to improve their open world design, they've regressed back to mostly flat zones with almost no verticality.

    Is that REALLY what we want from Blizzard and WoW?



    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I guess Pathfinder could unlock areas, but then the usual muh timegates complaints will occur so eh.
    Then don't timegate it. Base it on actual progression. Let the PLAYER determine when they unlock it by how fast they clear the content. Keeping in mind, this would need to go hand in hand with content with actual depth and challenge, and not just faceroll AFK Kill-X quests.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-05-19 at 03:51 AM.
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  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Frosteye View Post
    Pretty much hit it on the head IMO.

    The biggest anti-flying argument I see is "But flying makes it so you can skip over so much content!" -- which is in itself not a great argument since before (exception Cata) you needed to be Max Level before you could fly. You always had to play through zones on the ground.
    Which is exactly what you can do now once you have your pathfinder unlocked. Which you COULD NOT DO before the introduction of pathfinder. /facedesk

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Kataroku View Post
    If you can recall, flying was disabled in WoD because it would break phasing as well as some quest and cinematic triggers. Remember the PTR servers where flight was enabled and how painfully obvious it was that WoD wasn't designed with flight in mind at all?

    Player feedback - regarding how great MoP's Timeless Isle content was - simply gave Blizzard a convenient excuse to keep everyone grounded in order to cut corners and push the already-delayed expansion out sooner.

    To add to this, Tanaan Jungle was so vastly incomplete at launch, that they placed an impenetrable dome over it and people still found ways of getting inside.

    Given how time-poor the development team were at getting content out the door - as Legion's development was already underway - Blizzard had initially decided to disable flight for the entire expansion rather than test and fix everything that flying broke.

    I'm tired of reading that pathfinder was introduced to reinvigorate world PvP and exploration, because it wasn't. That's the corporate spiel trying to cover up the fact that disabling flight substantially reduces the amount of testing that needs to be done prior to launch.

    Any praise of the pathfinder achievement only emboldens Blizzard's decision to cut corners, which could partially explain why the game is where it's at today.

    EDIT: This isn't a thread about pro / anti flight. Too many people repeat the rhetoric that Blizzard did this for the player's benefit, which isn't true, and I'm setting the record straight.
    No, things are much more simple. They try to stretch content, make it take more time, than it should. Do you know, how hypocritical they are? Read this on a main page:
    The team feels that as long as you become familiar with the zone on foot first, it is not to early to allow flying in these new zones.
    Yet we need to wait for flying for a year+ after release of 8.0.
    We play RPG - not adventure and/or platformer, like Tomb Rider or Assassin's Creed.
    Blizzard should either remove features, that don't fit into RPG genre, or enable flying to avoid them for players, who don't like them.
    Flying - is like ability to turn PVP-flag off. It allows devs to design content purely for "PVPers" without risk of harming "PVEers".
    My perfect Wow.

  9. #169
    It wasn't. It was an asspull. Here's a link to the original interview with Ion Hazzikostas on Polygon that started the whole drama.

    https://www.polygon.com/2015/5/22/86...mo-pc-blizzard

    And here is the parody. Because it's Sunday RIP Zarhym, I miss the old skull

    https://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/...o-fuzzikoalas/

    New interview with Ono Fuzzikoalas discovered in Gollypawn magazine.

    THERE'S STILL NO LIGHTING IN DISMAL SWAMP... AND THERE PROBABLY WON'T BE IN ANY NEW ZONES OR EXPANSIONS

    When Boredlords of Paymore first hit, some fans were surprised to discover that even upon reaching the level cap of 500, they still couldn't see any of the new zones. Initially Gizzard expected to patch in dim lighting at some point, but now it has changed its mind.

    "Having looked at how lighting has played out in the whole world in all expansions, we realized that while we were doing it out of this ingrained habit after we'd introduced lighting in the initial release, it actually detracted from gameplay in a whole lot of ways," Fuzzikoalas explains. "While there was certainly convenience in being able to completely see the world everywhere you looked, that also came at the expense of gameplay like prolonged exploration, like trying to figure out if you're walking into a wall repeatedly, or if you're going to fall off a cliff and will you ever get back up if you do."

    "IT MADE THE WORLD FEEL IN MANY WAYS MUCH TOO WELL LIT"

    Fuzzikoalas gives an example: Before darkness was introduced to Foiled by Whichcraft, if you got a quest to kill ten rats for ten rat toes, it would play out a certain way. Players would need to fight their way through the rats. After seeing the rats, players could just kill on sight, wonder why there were so many toeless rats, but persist in slaughtering all the rats and then finally return to the questgiver who they could clearly see. With the new system, you won't even know if you're actually going towards the rats or possibly mounting a one-orc invasion on Windstorm. As an added plus, they'll never see you coming, either.

    Until you walk into something and discover it's indeed aggro, you are filled with a sense of wonder! No minimap, world map, heck, you can't even see your quest journal. Being required to memorize your quest objectives is like an entire little mini-game all on its own and encourages grouping. Before you knew how big a zone was because you could see it. With all lighting removed, even tiny zones can feel huge, especially if we put in some obstacles designed to keep you going in circles. Hours can be spent in the dark whereas the old, unimaginative style of full lighting encouraged people to dash hastily through, killing rats, and turning their quests in promptly.

    "It made the world feel in many ways much too well lit," he says.

    Originally, Gizzard thought taking lighting out in Boredlords of Paymore was an experiment, and Fuzzikoalas says he would have bet "something that he was willing to part with" that they were going to bring it back eventually. But as they played the expansion and heard others play it, they discovered that they liked the game better without lighting.

    "The world feels darker, feels more lugubrious," he says. "Players have been asking for darker nights for years. Then it dawned on us. Why stop there? Now there's more exploration, secrets, discovery and overall immersion in the world. At this point, we feel that outdoor gameplay in Foiled by Whichcraft is ultimately better without lighting. We're not going to be introducing the ability to see in Paymore, and that's where we're at going forward. At least we think it's forward, it could be going sideways. We won't know until we bump into it. We're applying the same philosophy to development that we want the players to use so we can all understand each other better."

    Fuzzikoalas confirms that this lack of direction includes future expansions, though he doesn't discount the possibility of adding visible options in to specific expansion ideas or zones that would benefit from it. In general, though, he believes that exploration in Gizzard's indeterminable world "works better and feels better in our limited view when you're doing it without any light."

    He also promises that Gizzard will continue working to improve its selection of rentable seeing eye dogs in the game to prevent any major frustration from this change: "The goal is to increase excitement in getting from point A to point B but retaining as much of the gameplay and depth as possible while you stumble around getting to that point, if you make it at all."

    NEXT ARTICLE:

    FLASHLIGHTS WITH FIVE MINUTE DURATIONS, MINER HELMETS FOR TEN MINUTES, BIOLUMINESCENT BATTLE PETS AND SPARKLE PONIES WITH SPORADICALLY FLASHING HOOVES -- COULD NEW CASH SHOP ITEMS GET ANY MORE THRILLING?!

  10. #170
    Over 9000! Grimbold21's Avatar
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    No flying would be.... acceptable if zones were designed like Vol'dun, well at least in part, where you're running freely without any sort of intentional mazes or blockages. Linda reminds of tanaris, that one

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Evaddon View Post
    Pathfinder is great, I don't mind it and I don't understand why so people apparently do/or you think they do.
    I mind it because I have only one character. By the time I can complete the Pathfinder achivement it's already beyond useless for me. I don't bother doing WQ's anymore because they're too time consuming and I've got nothing to gain from them. Pretty much all I do out in the open world is travel to my M+ or Raid. That's it. It's a big empty space connecting point A to point B, nothing more.

    Flying would have been useful while I was doing world content. But by the time it unlocks it will be completely redundant - Even more so when you consider that the new 8.2 zones aren't going to allow flying at all.

    Essentially, I've had this cool and fun ability stripped and have been given nothing at all in return for it. Pathfinder is not a "compromise" for me as much as it's an outright "Fuck you!".

  12. #172
    Yes, starting 100th "flying vs. no-flying" thread with exactly same arguments will certainly "get this one thing straight". ;D

    I know both "flying" and "no-flying" people have some problems with pathfinder and their arguments. That's why it's called COMPROMISE.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Even more so when you consider that the new 8.2 zones aren't going to allow flying at all.
    Just as a point of order: You will be able to fly in both Nazjatar and Mechagon once you complete Pathfinder part 2.

    I agree that by the time you get flight, it won't be particularly useful in those zone, but there it is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Yes, starting 100th "flying vs. no-flying" thread with exactly same arguments will certainly "get this one thing straight". ;D

    I know both "flying" and "no-flying" people have some problems with pathfinder and their arguments. That's why it's called COMPROMISE.
    It's not a compromise when one side gets everything, and the other gets a wet turd that's been hacked up by a dog.
    Happiness is peace in motion.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    It's not a compromise when one side gets everything, and the other gets a wet turd that's been hacked up by a dog.
    Getting flying in launch areas midway through expac and patch zones when you reach revered is "wed turd that's been hacked up by a dog"? And people that get no-flying environment only for 8-10 months gets "everything"? How can people treat anything you write serious when you post shit like this?

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Getting flying in launch areas midway through expac and patch zones when you reach revered is "wed turd that's been hacked up by a dog"? And people that get no-flying environment only for 8-10 months gets "everything"? How can people treat anything you write serious when you post shit like this?
    Don't be disingenuous. It doesn't help anything. And if you seriously believe what you just wrote, then you haven't looked very closely at the situation.

    Please take the time to read the discussion between myself and @Jastall, some of which you can see on this same page. But the TL : DR version that starts the discussion can be seen here.

    For players who want to enjoy flying, they are required to do all the work, and even then are not allowed to fly until an arbitrary time which has nothing to do with their efforts. And by the time they do get flying, every piece of content they could potentially fly to has had virtually all of its value exhausted by the requirements of Pathfinder.

    Furthermore, the unlock of flying does not stop or prevent grounded players from continuing to stay on the ground. Those players literally give up NOTHING except the experience of denying pro-flight players even the opportunity to enjoy the game in their preferred method. The fact that you refer to this as "only" having 8-10 months is not accurate, nor is it honest.

    So no, it's not a compromise. What do players who want to enjoy flying actually get out of this situation? And how does whatever they get measure up to what both Blizzard and pro-ground players get? I think if you can manage to be even moderately objective or fair, you'll be forced to admit that it's a raw deal. There's so much disparity in this "compromise" that it would almost be more honest to completely remove flying and force Blizzard to suffer the consequences of that decision.

    That's why I refer to what pro-flight players get as a "Wet turd".
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-05-19 at 09:21 AM.
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  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    1) he didn't make a point you can disagree with really
    2) He's right. WoD wasn't designed to be viewed from the air initially. That saved the team a lot of time in design and rendering. it may be news to some, but a lot of things weren't ever designed to be viewed from the air and look weird if you do (Silvermoon, for example). The upside is that you save time creating those views. The downside is... well you can't enable flight.

    For those white knights... this isn't Blizzard hate, it's just the way it was.
    Places like Silvermoon and Stormwind were built as "stage-illusions" to save on user's system resources back when WoW was being run on potatoes, I'm not certain that designing a 3D city, cutting parts out to save resources then testing all the possible views really saves much time over just building the city. The technique isn't really necessary with the modern system specifications for WoW and you can tell WoD didn't use it when you use the glider.

    The delay between Pathfinder being released and flight actually being unlocked came from them needing to do testing for things like dismount zones (indoor areas) extending upwards and getting players flying over places.


    There was never a large number of these people and the obvious response to them was... "wait, you hate the game with flying, it ruins the game for you but here you are after SEVEN YEARS?"
    You seem to have trouble distinguishing between thinking X is better and hating Y. The crappy world content was a factor in me quitting MoP so early in the expansion but it doesn't mean I hated flying, I just preferred all the leveling content (except Cata,) Isle of Quel-Danas, Firelands, dungeons and raids to the endgame dailies of WotLK, Cata and MoP. If flying was in WoW like it used to be I would probably still play but not enjoy it as much.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Druids could fly at 68 in TBC.
    At level 80 you could buy BoA tomes that level 70 alts could get Cold Weather Flying
    Wrong. Druids got to fly at 68 ONLY when their epic flight form was introduced. Before that, it was 70 on a mount as well for them.
    /spit@Blizzard

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Can you explain your reasoning? Because if you read my post 4 above yours on this same page, I lay out why Pathfinder is actually kind of bad. I'd be curious to know why you view it as being either "good" or a "middle ground". Because from what I've seen it's neither of those things.
    Pathfinder allows the devs to design and pace the game around ground-based travel which is their preference whilst allowing flight later in the expansion for people who want to use it for sight-seeing, as a catch-up mechanic for alts or to finish professions and achievements they found too difficult or time-consuming when tied to the ground.

  19. #179
    Immortal matheney2k's Avatar
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    Everybody is entitled to have their opinion, even if wrong, like this OP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    Klling a new born is not much morally different than a late term abortion. Should be avoided, but it's not like it is an actual person yet.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Frosteye View Post
    I'd say it's a logical assumption. There isn't really a lot of compelling evidence to the contrary.

    Reasons why he's right about pathfinder being the "lazy-way-out":
    1. WOD was rushed, original capitals were scrapped due to devs being behind.
    2. Tanaan was delayed due to #1 as well
    3. Safe to assume due to #1/#2, zones weren't designed with flying in mind.
    4. Also due to lack of content in WOD they wanted us to consume it "slower" on the ground.

    I'd really like to see the argument to the contrary. I just don't see how Pathfinder was actually necessary or justified for their actual reason/explanation. It doesn't add up or make sense when flying just "worked" since TBC, and nobody complained except a minority of WPVPers (others like myself actually didn't mind it).

    Can you give me a list of good reasons why flying was actually disabled for the reasons they say? Honestly it feels like people clinging to this notion are doing it out of "fanboy-ism". Don't get me wrong, I appreciate when Blizzard does things right (they do many times), but I'm not afraid to call BS on things either. Let's break down the OP's initial statement:


    1. The only thing that might make the smallest bit of sense was the cinematic cutscenes as you approach certain areas. Sure -- I will give them that. This is almost entirely exclusive to the leveling process though. They could have EASILY disabled flying until you reached 100 and completed the main questlines (a "soft" pathfinder at worst). There was no logical reason to make pathfinder as tedious as it was, and keep it from us for so long.
    The idea that removing flying was to slow down content consumption in WoD is nonsense. Blizz put a lot of dedicated end-game content in the game (over a dozen dedicated top-level zones with unique mechanics) but limited us to completing one of them and made the rewards lacklustre. If they were worried about content being consumed too quickly they could have allowed for 2 or 3 or even all of them each day for better rewards and it would have given people a lot to chew through even if they had allowed flight.

    At any rate, I don't really care if they turn flying ON or OFF, but I wish they would just stick to their guns. I would rather have no flying at all, than having to wait halfway through an expansion and do a tedious chore list to enable flying. You used to just train flying at max level after you played through the game once - I thought that was good enough.
    So you could say I am "IDGAF about Flying, but ANTI-Pathfinder".
    Halfway through WoD they were going to cater for your opinion and said there would be no flying going forwards but that caused enough backlash for them to do a 180 and introduce the Pathfinder system.

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