Can we get one thing straight about the introduction of pathfinder?

[FelPlague]

Are you kidding me? Having mats all over the place didn't effect everything, but the WoW token immediately shot up the prices of everything to insane levels, so that anyone not making gold from the WoW token struggled to buy anything.

Edit: The prices were stable in WoD before the token was introduced.

- - - Updated - - -



The WoD garrison only gave mats for WoD. Earlier items were completely uneffected by the Garrison, so prices for mats needed for earlier levels of professions remained the same (especially if you wanted to level profs before you hit level 90). The prices for WoD items were cheap because everyone had them, but people sometimes would still buy if they needed more than they had and didn't want to wait. It wasn't great, but it was still functional. When the tokens came out, the price of everything inflated to the point that nothing was affordable anymore if you were simply making gold via in-game methods. This effected everything, and not just certain aspects. The amount of gold everyone had from selling WoW tokens made people raise prices so high that playing the game the way it was supposed to be played made it impossible to buy even practical things like mats for profs. What would have been 300g prior ended up being 10k g, or more, after tokens were introduced. You literally had to pay real money to get a WoW token and sell it to get enough gold to be able to afford anything.

no, the token did not break the economy, the token barely effected the cost of everything.


what made everything shoot up was the garrison's gold making method of gold missions+gold increased followers, allowing for 5k a day per charecter.

[Lei]

OP, there's a common trend - especially on these forums - of Blizzard spewing out completely pants-on-head stupid, thinly veiled bullshit and people using it as an arguing point for years on end.

Want a perfect example? The appear offline or option to turn battle.net off without completely deleting your friends list. This was an arguing point for literal years because of some idiotic shit spewed from a developer once about how they feared it would create some kind of awkward social situation where everyone would appear offline and you'd never know who was around and who wasn't, or some such nonsense.
Spoiler: It didn't do that.
But you'd be shocked how many idiots parroted this argument on these forums for as long as the conversation about it continued.

There will be people who will gobble up their bullshit for years upon end all the way until it changes. Always has, and always will be. You could argue from any angle at how poorly thought out and half-assed the idea of Pathfinder is, or how it actually drives many people away from rejoining the game, knowing they have weeks if not months of grinding to do before they're allowed to actually move about like other players. There will still be people who agree with it because it's what Blizzard wants to do.

For this, and some other posts this whole thread was worth it. Thanks, OP.

Flight is one of my favorite things in wow. If flying was never introduced, wow could have been still good, but when they decided to add flying, the cat got out the bag. I said this many times but the devs should be REALLY careful about features they put into the game. This is not a CoD 1-2-3-4-123232 where you can restart. This is an ongoing fragile game, where they should be more careful about putting in and stripping out stuff. i mean this is how we got BfA after the artifacts.
I remember maybe ghostcrawler talking about battle pets. How the team has carefully designed it and played with the thoughts about how to expand them, how to grow the system. it was amazing to see a dev actually talking about thinking on the future of a system. We don't really have stuff like this anymore.

[rrayy]

If you can recall, flying was disabled in WoD because it would break phasing as well as some quest and cinematic triggers. Remember the PTR servers where flight was enabled and how painfully obvious it was that WoD wasn't designed with flight in mind at all?

Player feedback - regarding how great MoP's Timeless Isle content was - simply gave Blizzard a convenient excuse to keep everyone grounded in order to cut corners and push the already-delayed expansion out sooner.

To add to this, Tanaan Jungle was so vastly incomplete at launch, that they placed an impenetrable dome over it and people still found ways of getting inside.

Given how time-poor the development team were at getting content out the door - as Legion's development was already underway - Blizzard had initially decided to disable flight for the entire expansion rather than test and fix everything that flying broke.

I'm tired of reading that pathfinder was introduced to reinvigorate world PvP and exploration, because it wasn't. That's the corporate spiel trying to cover up the fact that disabling flight substantially reduces the amount of testing that needs to be done prior to launch.

Any praise of the pathfinder achievement only emboldens Blizzard's decision to cut corners, which could partially explain why the game is where it's at today.

EDIT: This isn't a thread about pro / anti flight. Too many people repeat the rhetoric that Blizzard did this for the player's benefit, which isn't true, and I'm setting the record straight.

You aren't setting anything straight because Blizzard never said anything you claim they did.

First, phasing had nothing to do with the disabling of flying. Ir was disabled because Blizzard couldn't make up their mind on whether to have flying or not, so the developers who were working on that abandoned it because Blizzard kept dragging their feet, it all of a sudden became too late in the expansion their minds and things seemed to be going well without it so they decided to do away with it completely.

Second, Blizzard never said that Pathfinder was introduced to reinvigorate world PvP and exploration. You are outright lying. Blizzard said they introduced Pathdiner as a compromise on the no flying at all because they felt that flying should be earned and not handed out. It was also done as a compromise between the devs who wanted flying and those who didn't.

Your whole post is BS and is basically made up stuff to fit the narrative you want to tell.

[CritFromAfar]

no, the token did not break the economy, the token barely effected the cost of everything.


what made everything shoot up was the garrison's gold making method of gold missions+gold increased followers, allowing for 5k a day per charecter.

No.

/10 char.

[rrayy]

I never understood why they time gate pathfinder. They use the excuse for pathfinder that they want people to explore and experience the world and flying from A to B ruins that. Right, ok fair point but that's the point of pathfinder. Once you've unlocked it, you've explored everywhere, you've done all the main quests, you've probably done a bunch of world quests to meet the rep requirements. So why is there now a long wait for part two?

Let people earn pathfinder at their own pace, they still have to do all the content required to unlock the achievement but once they have, flying should be unlocked immediately. I personally have only just returned to the game after a long break because honestly, traversing the world to do world quests I've already done a bunch of times is tedious as hell. Not saying flying is the fix for that tediousness but it would go a long way in relieving it if I didn't have to faff around running through areas and mobs I've seen a thousand times already.

Because they don't want people flying over everything day 1 and they don't want people feeling forced to complete it day one. The only issue is that it should be unlocked with .1, not .2

[Fred Skinner]

Do you really think getting people to grind out Pathfinder (which you can typically get just doing the world content) makes enough to make up for the people who quit/delay purchase over the matter and the fact mounts on the store became less attractive? Also, how does the fact they planned to leave flying out altogether play into this idea?

They never planned that. Warlords of Draenor was made flyable from start, and all following patches as well.

[Lei]

You aren't setting anything straight because Blizzard never said anything you claim they did.

First, phasing had nothign to do with the disabling of flying. IT was disabled because Blizzard couldn't make up their mind on whether to have flying or not, so the developers who were working on that abandoned it.

Sceond, Blizzard never said that Pathfinder was introduced to reinvigorate world PvP and exploration. You are outright lying. Blizzard said they introduced Pathdiner as a compromise on the no flying at all because they felt that flying should be earned and not handed out. It was also done as a compromise between the devs who wanted flying and those who didn't.

Your whole post is BS and is basically made up stuff to fit the narrative you want to tell.

Did you actually read what he wrote? Read again...

[Steelcryo]

Because they don't want people flying over everything day 1 and they don't want people feeling forced to complete it day one. The only issue is that it should be unlocked with .1, not .2

That's the issue with the game atm, people should be allowed to play the way they want. If they want to rush through things and get flying, let them. They still have to do a load of content and the amount of rep you can get per day is limited so there'd still be a time gate. I dislike any game that says "play this way not the way you want"

[rrayy]

Did you actually read what he wrote? Read again...

I did read what he wrote. He outright claimed Blizzard said that they created pathfinder to re-invigorate PvP and exploration. That NEVER happened. He also said phasing is why they got rid of flying. Also false because Blizzard admitted they had developers working on it and that their indecision on the matter led to deciding to table the development, then abandon it when they decided to not have flying. Everything are unsubstantiated claims that he is making to fit the narrative he wants to spew.

The only one with false rhetoric is the OP.

- - - Updated - - -

That's the issue with the game atm, people should be allowed to play the way they want. If they want to rush through things and get flying, let them. They still have to do a load of content and the amount of rep you can get per day is limited so there'd still be a time gate. I dislike any game that says "play this way not the way you want"

Why? SO you can then complain there is no content because you burned through it in a day? You will still be complaining, just about something different. Blizz loses either way. So, it is far better to do it the way they do now so they can at least satisfy some players rather than satisfying nobody.

[Lei]

I did read what he wrote. He outright claimed Blizzard said that they created pathfinder to re-invigorate PvP and exploration. That NEVER happened. He also said phasing is why they got rid of flying. Also false because Blizzard admitted they had developers working on it and that their indecision on the matter led to deciding to table the development, then abandon it when they decided to not have flying.

The only one with false rhetoric is the OP.

You are making a fool of yourself. The Op says he READS these from OTHER people all the time. It's not he who claims to have this thoughts. He "quotes" players who believe that is why we don't have flying. He actually says this is NOT the reason and never was.

Please...

And tbf. the whole wod flying debacle was a mess.
First the devs said flying will come in a later patch. Players were like, ookay, that's fair probably... Then the devs casually dropped the bomb flying will never come ever again, not just in wod, but in later expacs either, which is when people started to riot. Then they said oopsie wod was not built to have flying, but okay, they will do it. The "fight" for flying was ugly and eye opening and the whole wod experience really turned the ship to a new direction...

[Steelcryo]

I did read what he wrote. He outright claimed Blizzard said that they created pathfinder to re-invigorate PvP and exploration. That NEVER happened. He also said phasing is why they got rid of flying. Also false because Blizzard admitted they had developers working on it and that their indecision on the matter led to deciding to table the development, then abandon it when they decided to not have flying. Everything are unsubstantiated claims that he is making to fit the narrative he wants to spew.

The only one with false rhetoric is the OP.

- - - Updated - - -

Why? SO you can then complain there is no content because you burned through it in a day? You will still be complaining, just about something different. Blizz loses either way. So, it is far better to do it the way they do now so they can at least satisfy some players rather than satisfying nobody.

I've never complained about lack of content if I've chosen to rush through it. I actually quite enjoy taking my time with things but if I do rush through, that's my choice. The only real reason against it is to keep people playing longer because as you say, people will complain either way so it's not to avoid people complaining there isn't content. Who says a lot of people wouldn't be satisfied if they did it the way I described? You make a lot of assumptions

[SirCowdog]

Nope. I read. Flying kill content. Kill the world. Kill any sense of immersion. And you want that just to mine in an easier way so you could be max level in mining without having to interact with or progress in the world.

Your next complaint might be that some mobs are to close from nodes wich destroy your self weird sense of accomplishment.

Clearly you didn't. Where did I say anything about mining? Really...wtf?

World content is not boring at first while he is relevant. And he is relevant for longer than "I just dang x level". It would have been ok with the opening of the last raid.

World quests and leveling quests in BfA started out weak and shallow. It's the same garbage we've seen for the past decade. There's no challenge. There's nothing interesting to discover. It's just a series of Kill-X or Collect-X quests. We might as well be playing an AFK facebook game.

Maybe....MAYBE 8.2 will provide something a little more interesting. But that doesn't excuse the delay of finishing pathfinder for almost an entire year after the launch of the expansion. Nazjatar and Mechagon will be completely separate zones. What is the explaination for delaying flight in Zandalar or Kul'Tiras for so long? There isn't one. It's just Blizzard stretching weak content with pathfinder, making a list of nonsense tasks that don't even give a reward once you've done them.

Pathfinder needs to go. Or at the very least be a zone by zone basis.

But I doubt you'll even read or consider any of this.

[rrayy]

You are making a fool of yourself. The Op says he READS these from OTHER people all the time. It's not he who claims to have this thoughts. He "quotes" players who believe that is why we don't have flying. He actually says this is NOT the reason and never was.

Please...

The only one making a fool of yourself is you. He is claiming as fact what Blizzard real motivations are Let's break this down to show how you fail:

If you can recall, flying was disabled in WoD because it would break phasing as well as some quest and cinematic triggers. Remember the PTR servers where flight was enabled and how painfully obvious it was that WoD wasn't designed with flight in mind at all?

Not what happend at all. Blizzard fully intended to put flying in at first, but their indecision caused the deves working on it to abandon their work.

Player feedback - regarding how great MoP's Timeless Isle content was - simply gave Blizzard a convenient excuse to keep everyone grounded in order to cut corners and push the already-delayed expansion out sooner.

There is no evidence to back this claim.

To add to this, Tanaan Jungle was so vastly incomplete at launch, that they placed an impenetrable dome over it and people still found ways of getting inside.

When they launched Tanaan they had already decided not to put it in the game, so there was no reason to finish it, not to mention there was no reason to have it done before it went live to begin with

Given how time-poor the development team were at getting content out the door - as Legion's development was already underway - Blizzard had initially decided to disable flight for the entire expansion rather than test and fix everything that flying broke.

Absolutely no evidence to back up these claims.

I'm tired of reading that pathfinder was introduced to reinvigorate world PvP and exploration, because it wasn't. That's the corporate spiel trying to cover up the fact that disabling flight substantially reduces the amount of testing that needs to be done prior to launch.

He outright claims Blizzard said it calling it corporate spiel and accuses Blizzard of using it to cover up the fact that it reduces the amount of testing. Once again, no evidence to back that up plus a false accusation to boot.

Any praise of the pathfinder achievement only emboldens Blizzard's decision to cut corners, which could partially explain why the game is where it's at today.

This is opinion only and there is no evidence they cut any corners.

EDIT: This isn't a thread about pro / anti flight. Too many people repeat the rhetoric that Blizzard did this for the player's benefit, which isn't true, and I'm setting the record straight.

He claims to be setting the record straight, but he offers nothing but unsubstantiated claims of fact and his opinions. He isn't setting the record straight. He is spinning his opinion and trying to call it fact.

- - - Updated - - -

I've never complained about lack of content if I've chosen to rush through it. I actually quite enjoy taking my time with things but if I do rush through, that's my choice. The only real reason against it is to keep people playing longer because as you say, people will complain either way so it's not to avoid people complaining there isn't content. Who says a lot of people wouldn't be satisfied if they did it the way I described? You make a lot of assumptions

Because we have already seen in the past that people complain about there beiong no content after thy burned through it in a couple of days. This has happened every expansion including those with Pathfinder. I'm not making assumptions. I am basing it on actual past behavior.

[StrawberryZebra]

You misremember. There were people complaining about how it would be bad back prior to TBC when it was announced.

But not for the reasons often cited here. The main thread of those complaints was that it would give you little to no time to react to a potential gank when players could jump you from above as well as from the ground. It gave too much of an advantage was the issue, not that it prevented PvP from happening. You could never hope to escape from someone corpse camping you with a flying mount, especially not back when mounts were a 3 second cast time and they could swoop in and interrupt long before you could mount up and escape.

[Frosteye]

WPvP people complain about anything.. But they are so few in numbers, that no one have ever taken them seriously.

- - - Updated - - -

I know.. Was also my point why I said WoD was the problem.

And there are just as many WPVP people who are OK with flight.

OP clearly stated he wasn't taking a pro/anti flight stance (and therefore didn't offer a solution). He's merely stating that flying was disabled so Blizzard could cut corners and design their zones with flying accessibility as an afterthought (or not at all).

[Lei]

I'm tired of reading that pathfinder was introduced to reinvigorate world PvP and exploration, because it wasn't. That's the corporate spiel trying to cover up the fact that disabling flight substantially reduces the amount of testing that needs to be done prior to launch.

Second, Blizzard never said that Pathfinder was introduced to reinvigorate world PvP and exploration. You are outright lying. Blizzard said they introduced Pathdiner as a compromise on the no flying at all because they felt that flying should be earned and not handed out. It was also done as a compromise between the devs who wanted flying and those who didn't.

Your whole post is BS and is basically made up stuff to fit the narrative you want to tell.

The only one making a fool of yourself is you.

Oh really?

The devs told many times how they don't like flying because it makes the world smaller and you and just skip mobs. Pathfinder is compromise. it is sold as a compromise, in reality the players were scammed*. He is not lying. I don't recall anything about wPvP, but I am not a wpvp-er so...
Also PLAYERS are regurgirating this ALL the TIME.

Scammed: remember when the devs were like: This expectation from us to deliver an expansion every year is impossible. Players were like: say waaaa? (THIS IS HOW WE GOT WOD )
Same with flying: devs: Uhm, turns out flying is a problem?!?!?!?!? players: uhm, no, not really?
Same with Master looter: Guys! Guys!!!! Turns out master loot is bad and it's NASTY!? Players: Huh?
Devs: Turns out tier sets are boring? We're happy to help with azerite! Players: ......................

Funny isn't? This was all the devs selling you turd as gold.

The playerbase was scammed so many times but who counts really. From literelly EVERY SINGLE proposition like this the players came out poorer, thinking they at least got a compromise.

[FelPlague]

No.

/10 char.

as someone who got a few million gold from the garrison using these missions... it literally did nothing. the token did nothing with it, the gold missions is why

[Lei]

as someone who got a few million gold from the garrison using these missions... it literally did nothing. the token did nothing with it, the gold missions is why

Real talk, do you still have that gold? I was wondering how many people still got that gold as of today. While playing the game (raiding, flasks, food etc), spending on game time or balance, or mounts or other vanity. And if people who still hold onto gold and don't spend it should really count? Because if you don't spend it, then that gold basically doesn't exist. Right? Gold has value the moment you spend it, not while rotting in your pocket. I think.

[SirCowdog]

Oh really?

The devs told many times how they don't like flying because it makes the world smaller and you and just skip mobs. Pathfinder is compromise. it is sold as a compromise, in reality the players were scammed*. He is not lying. I don't recall anything about wPvP, but I am not a wpvp-er so...
Also PLAYERS are regurgirating this ALL the TIME.

Scammed: remember when the devs were like: This expectation from us to deliver an expansion every year is impossible. Players were like: say waaaa? (THIS IS HOW WE GOT WOD )
Same with flying: devs: Uhm, turns out flying is a problem?!?!?!?!? players: uhm, no, not really?
Same with Master looter: Guys! Guys!!!! Turns out master loot is bad and it's NASTY!? Players: Huh?
Devs: Turns out tier sets are boring? We're happy to help with azerite! Players: ......................

Funny isn't? This was all the devs selling you turd as gold.

The playerbase was scammed so many times but who counts really. From literelly EVERY SINGLE proposition like this the players came out poorer, thinking they at least got a compromise.

Flying doesn't make the world smaller. It can make it appear smaller because you're not having to interact with everything between two points, but portals do the same thing, as do summons, or flight paths. The argument that dev made was predicated on the assumption that everything between two points is always worth interacting with, or would always been interesting to a player. It also assumes that skipping content or mobs is always bad. And assumes that Blizzard content and encounter designers didn't have ways to mitigate or counteract flight without removing it completely.

All in all, the reasons given for why flight is supposedly bad for WoW are not honest ones. This is the type of thing I think you're referring to, and I agree with it. Pathfinder was just the easy way out, and lying about its reasons was likewise easier than being honest.

- - - Updated - - -

as someone who got a few million gold from the garrison using these missions... it literally did nothing. the token did nothing with it, the gold missions is why

The gold token was a pretty typical "kill two birds with one stone" move. It curtailed and controlled 3rd party RMT, while making Blizzard profit at the same time.

I actually agree that the token had very little effect on the in-game economy. The token doesn't actually generate or remove gold from the system. It's just a method of moving gold from one player to another.

[Soon-TM]

Designing quests and map layouts in 2D is far easier, and thus cheaper, than doing it in 3D. That's the only reason for delaying flight; all the ZOMG IDD TRUVIALESE TEH UPEN WARLD blathering can be safely dismissed, because Devs could come with *gasp* quests that require flight instead of being trivialised by it. They just choose not to do it.