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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Intropid View Post
    I disagree with you, but regardless, you didn't propose a solution. Do you think flying should be enabled from an expansions start? Do you think it should just cost gold? Do you think flying should be completely disabled? There isn't any point in criticizing or complaining in a feature without offering potential solutions.
    Not sure if OP is correct with what he says about the reasons why flying was originally cut in WoD. I vividly recall Ion's interview with Polygon where he blurted out that "the team" had decided WoD would not have flying and the shitstorm that broke lose after that. Fun times. After enough pressure from the playerbase they finally bailed and made a "compromise" with Pathfinder.

    Personally I think it's shit because I find it ok not to fly if you are not maxlevel. Because once you have PF on one toon, all your alts benefit from it, too. You know, getting flying was a progression thing, like now I'm all grown up and get my driver's license and stuff.

    I had absolutely no issue with the way it was. Pay your 5k gold at maxlevel to get your flying license. In my opinion this drama was just drama for drama's sake and absolutely redundant. They tried to "fix" something that wasn't broken to begin with.
    Last edited by Eggroll; 2019-05-18 at 05:53 PM.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Can you explain your reasoning? Because if you read my post 4 above yours on this same page, I lay out why Pathfinder is actually kind of bad. I'd be curious to know why you view it as being either "good" or a "middle ground". Because from what I've seen it's neither of those things.
    I think I laid out my reasoning pretty clearly. I like having things to go for in the game, things of different kinds. Pathfinder combines loremaster, reputations and story plot quests into a meta achievement that rewards me with the ability to use flying mounts. It is also not available on release so it makes the 'reward' of the flying skill feel so much better once you actually get it. Kind of feels like playing the game normally and then after many months unlocking a flying cheat code.

    As for those points...I may address them for the sake of discussion, but I don't think it will change anything. In the end it's all about opinions and preferences. It's not a scientific debate of facts, but an exchange of subjective opinions.


    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    "Makes obtaining flight feel like a reward" - virtually everyone I talk to, except the most hardcore Blizzard apologists, admit that by the time they finally get to fly they're sick of the ground. That no-flying far outstays its welcome, and that finally getting it back is a palpable feeling of relief that they don't have to deal with the ground nonsense any longer.

    Not only that, but the actual payout for doing the work of Pathfinder is gated and delayed beyond any reasonable amout of time. To the extent that by the time you get it the value of the "reward" has been largely mitigated and atrophied.

    This leads into....

    Flying is definitely way more pleasant than just going by a ground mount. Not sure what that has to do with the feeling of being rewarded, or why it would invalidate that feeling or diminish it. If anything, it increases the enjoyment of finally being able to fly.


    "Pathfinder is a compromise" - It's only a compromise in the most technical sense of the word. By delaying the unlock for so long, Blizzard gains everything they want out of a flightless world, but gives up almost nothing. As above: By the time you get flight, the only thing it's fully good for are alts, which further benefits Blizzard! Virtually everything else you'd use flight for on a main....you will have already done.

    The benefit that the player gets in this compromise is almost nothing, making it a shit "compromise".
    Well, true. Compromises are always shit to some extent. But a compromise is still better for the other half of the community than the exact thing they do not want. The people who are "no flying allowed" get their preferred style of the game as the only one for about a year, and the other half gets their preferred (flying allowed) after a year with additional challenge requirement, so it's not free.

    I personally wouldn't mind flying from the very start, but the way they chose to gate it feels decent and as I said, gives me an additional challenge in the game, which I like. If I were to choose my most preferred way, I would take the current way (pathfinder achievement) but doable from the release day. I don't mind really mind waiting for it though (and like I said earlier, to some extent it feels more rewarding to finally get it after longer time).

    "No flying allows blizzard to create more interesting and engaging content" - I believe it was Ion who said that, although it might have been Lore. All I can say is: Where is it? The open world has been a series of copy/pasted kill-x quests and mindless, shallow WQs. Even the story quests while leveling have not been particularly engaging outside of a few exceptions such as the Suramar.
    That's a whole different debate I feel. There's a huge portion of the playerbase who believe that just not being able to fly makes the content way better. To be clear, I don't agree with that, but these people are there.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Not sure if OP is correct with what he says about the reasons why flying was originally cut in WoD. I vividly recall Ion's interview with Polygon where he blurted out that "the team" had decided WoD would not have flying and the shitstorm that broke lose after that. Fun times. After enough pressure from the playerbase they finally bailed and made a "compromise" with Pathfinder.

    Personally I think it's shit because I find it ok not to fly if you are not maxlevel. Because once you have PF on one toon, all your alts benefit from it, too. You know, getting flying was a progression thing, like now I'm all grown up and get my driver's license and stuff.

    I had absolutely no issue with the way it was. Pay your 5k gold at maxlevel to get your flying license. In my opinion this drama was just drama for drama's sake and absolutely redundant. They tried to "fix" something that wasn't broken to begin with.


    Pretty much hit it on the head IMO.

    The biggest anti-flying argument I see is "But flying makes it so you can skip over so much content!" -- which is in itself not a great argument since before (exception Cata) you needed to be Max Level before you could fly. You always had to play through zones on the ground.

    A more reasoned approach would have been adding a "soft-pathfinder" requirement for maybe 80/100% loremaster completion. They went entirely overboard with pathfinder requirements and did not need to time-gate it for half the expansions' lifecycle.

    My "opinion" is that they are keeping pathfinder on the metaphorical hook for us, in order to promote world quest / content participation. Instead of making us want to do these things on their own merits, they're gating flight behind it so "almost everyone" will feel compelled to participate.

    Honestly - I find these types of content (WQs/islands) fairly dull/boring. WQs were maybe cool once they first came out, but they are no longer interesting or challenging/rewarding. It feels like they exist for the sake of being a chore that eats up your playtime.
    Last edited by Frosteye; 2019-05-18 at 06:10 PM.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Frosteye View Post
    My assumptions with supporting arguments are better than your complete lack of any argument at all. Are they logical or not? that might be in the eye of the beholder sure.

    Unless you want to make your own argument and give me reasons why you think you're right, then move along

    OP is not taking any particular stance on flight, he is merely pointing out that Pathfinder wasn't implemented for the actual reasons they stated. I think his arguments for that opinion are quite good, and I have yet to see anyone put forth a reasonable counter-argument besides "You're wrong".
    What supporting arguments? Those are just assumptions as well. You can't support assumptions with assumptions.

    There's no real need for a "reasonable counter-argument" when there's no arguments to counter in the first place.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    What supporting arguments? Those are just assumptions as well. You can't support assumptions with assumptions.

    There's no real need for a "reasonable counter-argument" when there's no arguments to counter in the first place.
    You're not even trying, just stop unless you want to make an opinion and back it up. All you're doing is saying "You're wrong" which isn't an argument

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    as someone who got a few million gold from the garrison using these missions... it literally did nothing. the token did nothing with it, the gold missions is why
    I did not have the same experience.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    As for those points...I may address them for the sake of discussion, but I don't think it will change anything. In the end it's all about opinions and preferences. It's not a scientific debate of facts, but an exchange of subjective opinions.
    True enough. It's my hope that by explaining my point of view, you might be convinced that while the underlying concept of Pathfinder is decent, the implementation of it needs a lot of work. I think we mostly agree on this, but I'm going to expand on my reasoning for the sake of discussion and understanding.


    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    I like having things to go for in the game, things of different kinds. Pathfinder combines loremaster, reputations and story plot quests into a meta achievement that rewards me with the ability to use flying mounts. It is also not available on release so it makes the 'reward' of the flying skill feel so much better once you actually get it. Kind of feels like playing the game normally and then after many months unlocking a flying cheat code.
    I also like having goals to work towards, both short and long-term ones. However, the problem I see with Pathfinder is that the goal largely has nothing to do with the work the player is actually doing. If Pathfinder was not hard-locked behind a 9-12 month arbitrary wait, I'd probably agree with you on that point. But because if the time-gate, it robs the player of that goal, making all work done towards it pointless until Blizzard flips the switch. That's a pretty serious flaw, in my eyes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    Flying is definitely way more pleasant than just going by a ground mount. Not sure what that has to do with the feeling of being rewarded, or why it would invalidate that feeling or diminish it. If anything, it increases the enjoyment of finally being able to fly.
    Because of the way Pathfinder is implemented, both in terms of how much of the game you have complete, and how long you're required to wait, the "reward" loses value. Yes, flying may be more pleasant than being on the ground, but all you're doing is flying to content you've already cleared. And due to the shallow design of the open world, even on an alt the enjoyment of flying to objectives is greatly diminished.

    Basically the amount of work and time required to unlock flying isn't anywhere near the value of the "reward". This is why so many people are pushing for a zone-by-zone unlock, or earlier unlock, so that the value of flight is increased. Granted, that's purely subjective, and I think there are better ways to address the value of flight than by simply adjusting the timing of it(such as including flight in the fundamental design of the world), but having a more fair unlock is a good start.



    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    the other half gets their preferred (flying allowed) after a year
    I have to strongly disagree with this statement, as I believe it's a misrepresentation, and one of the fundamental misunderstandings of the ongoing debate.

    This goes back to what I've been trying to articulate over the course of my last few posts: The value of flying through content that you've already cleared, and that has been repeated for nearly a year, is NOT the same as it would be if flying was obtainable earlier in the expansion. It is NOT the preferred way in which people would prefer to use flying in the open world. And it is NOT equivalent to the enjoyable experience that players who preferred the grounded content are getting.

    I can't stress this point enough.

    Being able to fly to NEW content that hasn't already been explored, or even being able to fly through content that you've only done once, has far more value than what Pathfinder leaves players after being completed. Having to constantly run back and forth over the open world to grind reputation via world quests ensures that by the time flying is acquired, there is virtually no value or exploration left in the content you can fly to. In many cases players have repeated pathfinder content so often that they're sick of it, and don't want to return even WITH flying.

    Players who want flight generally do not get what they want out of the "compromise" of flying.


    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    I personally wouldn't mind flying from the very start, but the way they chose to gate it feels decent and as I said, gives me an additional challenge in the game, which I like. If I were to choose my most preferred way, I would take the current way (pathfinder achievement) but doable from the release day. I don't mind really mind waiting for it though (and like I said earlier, to some extent it feels more rewarding to finally get it after longer time).
    I question how waiting for an arbitrary amount of time, that has nothing to do with your own work or effort, can feel more rewarding. The player doesn't have any involvement in that process. And I think this is why you, and many others, are correct when you say it would be better if Pathfinder could be completed from day 1. This is because it ties the process 100% to player effort and work. Personally I would prefer a more comprehensive solution, but I also believe that your suggestions(along with many others) would increase the value of unlocking flight significantly.



    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    That's a whole different debate I feel. There's a huge portion of the playerbase who believe that just not being able to fly makes the content way better. To be clear, I don't agree with that, but these people are there.
    I think if Blizzard addressed the fundamental issue of how shallow the open world is, both physically and creatively, Pathfinder wouldn't be as needed. Either design the world to include challenges and obstacles to flying players(along with an associated reworking of the flight mechanics to facilitate that design), or design the ground content to be enjoyable and engaging enough so that players don't mind not having flight. Simply taking away flight and using the same "kill-X" flat terrain isn't enough any more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    What's the point of having to fly to a target mob, click on three buttons, then fly again to the quest giver?
    The problem you just described is not with flight. You could do the exact same thing with a ground mount, or with a glider, or the whistle.

    The problem is with open world content that's so stupidly over-simplified that all you have to do is run in and click or kill a couple things then run out. That's an issue of depth. If the open world objectives had more complexity or thinking involved, even current flight mechanics wouldn't have as much of an impact.

    Let me rephrase that for emphasis: The problem isn't with flight. It's with quest and objectives that are so simple and shallow that a trained cat could complete it.
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  8. #148
    Bloodsail Admiral Evaddon's Avatar
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    Pathfinder is great, I don't mind it and I don't understand why so people apparently do/or you think they do.

    It gives you a chance to adventure, to explore, to see things as intended. Flying is stupid and honestly one of the most immersion breaking aspects of the game for me, I'm glad they keep it held it off until content is explored and seen

    You're playing a game, not everything needs to be fast and instant gratification, jumping from point A to B to C in a couple of minutes when you're just sitting on your ass wasting time anyway.

    I rather be down to world that gets more beautiful by each Expansion! Now granted I understand flying over shit like Outlands, because the landscape is honestly pretty boring and dull, but the Broken isles? Zandalar, Kul'tiras?!!! Hell no...but that's just me, I'm a scenic kind of person

  9. #149
    There is an easy way to do it now... no flying in war mode.

    I personally just don't get why they don't create content with flying in mind like Storm Peak and Icecrown anymore, but that's the other option.. world pvp won't be an excuse anymore and you just boost their damage so you are not advantaged by flying.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Kataroku View Post
    If you can recall, flying was disabled in WoD because it would break phasing as well as some quest and cinematic triggers. Remember the PTR servers where flight was enabled and how painfully obvious it was that WoD wasn't designed with flight in mind at all?

    Player feedback - regarding how great MoP's Timeless Isle content was - simply gave Blizzard a convenient excuse to keep everyone grounded in order to cut corners and push the already-delayed expansion out sooner.

    To add to this, Tanaan Jungle was so vastly incomplete at launch, that they placed an impenetrable dome over it and people still found ways of getting inside.

    Given how time-poor the development team were at getting content out the door - as Legion's development was already underway - Blizzard had initially decided to disable flight for the entire expansion rather than test and fix everything that flying broke.

    I'm tired of reading that pathfinder was introduced to reinvigorate world PvP and exploration, because it wasn't. That's the corporate spiel trying to cover up the fact that disabling flight substantially reduces the amount of testing that needs to be done prior to launch.

    Any praise of the pathfinder achievement only emboldens Blizzard's decision to cut corners, which could partially explain why the game is where it's at today.

    EDIT: This isn't a thread about pro / anti flight. Too many people repeat the rhetoric that Blizzard did this for the player's benefit, which isn't true, and I'm setting the record straight.
    Thanks friend.

    My recent manure supplier ditched me and this post has more than enough BS in it.

    Unless you have experience on the dev team during this then you are literally just talking out your ass.

    Without Pathfinder I wouldn't have found Winnie the Pooh

  11. #151
    Very rarely does one come across someone as clueless and in left field as the OP is.

    Wow. Just wow.

  12. #152
    Herald of the Titans MrKnubbles's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, did you say Timeless Isle was great? Because I'd have to strongly disagree.
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  13. #153
    I just find it ridiculous we need to do a whole achievements and reps to get flying, i don't enjoy being on the ground and it should be as it was before, paying with gold, if you want, sure make us get exalted with one rep of some kind and then some gold, but the whole pathfinders are ridiculous. People has always used hacks and discovered problems even on expansions without pathfinders, i don't give a damn, i want to be able to explore the world without being stuck on the ground, i like to fly and see the world bigger and people on the ground doing stuff while im farming herbs, makes the world seem bigger and more populated cause you can pass from places to places and 'oh look at it, there's someone killing those mobs, oh i just remembered now, i should do this too...' FLYING doesn't take the ability of not making us play more the game, if anything, makes us even want to explore more, because of how fast we want to get to a place, sometimes on the ground and always taking flight paths seems we take too much effort, calling for the whistle, talking with the flight master and send character to just the other side of the road when we could just fly there by ourselves but ground mount doesn't have enough speed.

    It's absurd. I do pathfinders cause i want flying, everyone wants flying, it shouldn't be needed to be at almost middle of the expansion to get it... It's not for our benefit to stay on the ground, i don't find it enjoyable, and i find it slow, i take more time on a ground mount to go somewhere cause even on some roads going without any mob attacking there's times we get dismounted and need to stop to fight that mob that we dont even care about, with flying, this doesn't happen, so nope this is not even a benefit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also with no flying makes us get out from a place as fast as we can and not exploring anything because we want to move to world quests, or doing some stuff, we don't really want to go anywhere because it takes too much time as it is already, for my experience this xpacs, WoD, Legion and BfA, not having flying was the worse thing for me and puts me off to even want to go somewhere.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Evaddon View Post
    I don't understand why so people apparently do/or you think they do.
    If you took the time to read a few of the more detailed and articulated posts, you might.


    Quote Originally Posted by Evaddon View Post
    Flying is stupid and honestly one of the most immersion breaking aspects of the game for me

    ...but that's just me,

    I think I see the issue here.

    You should REALLY stop and take the time to consider that there's enough room in the game for players to enjoy flying and the ground. Restricting flight for almost an entire year is not required to provide you with a grounded experience. Time gating it at all isn't required either.

    In fact, it's entirely possible for content to be designed side by side for both flying and grounded exploration, artistic beauty, and challenge. The fact of the matter is that older expansions did this. Flying was unlocked at level cap, giving you grounded exploration while leveling. Then players got the entire open world to fly around, followed later by islands for level-capped ground content.

    Both types of players had content made for them. I think we can expand on that idea and make better versions of that concept, and I think we REALLY need to stop making this a black and white issue where only one side gets what they want.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-05-19 at 12:19 AM.
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  15. #155
    I hate flying and wish it was never introduced into the game. Just my two cents.

    On the second note I find Pathfinder an ideal balance between ground and flying transition.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by MrKnubbles View Post
    I'm sorry, did you say Timeless Isle was great? Because I'd have to strongly disagree.
    I second this.. who the hell ever said Timeless Isle was great?

    I think I was done after 2 days with that zone, just to unlock the legendary cloak and that's it... except the very very boring farming of frogs at the end of the xpac.

    Or maybe you're mistaking it with the Isle of Thunder.. because that was actually good content.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    I hate flying and wish it was never introduced into the game. Just my two cents.

    On the second note I find Pathfinder an ideal balance between ground and flying transition.
    If you hate it, did you keep playing from TBC through MoP?

    Also, what is it about flying that you hate? Is there something stopping you from just staying on the ground and playing the game the way you enjoy? Is it the design of maps that make you have to travel further? Is it PVP? What, specifically, is it that you hate?
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  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    No one complained about flight in TBC.
    No one complained about flight in WotLK.
    No one complained about flight in Cataclysm.
    No one complained about flight in MoP.
    In WoD, suddenly, flight was a problem..

    Flight was never the problem: WoD was..
    Flight wasn't a problem in TBC because you had to be max level and it was a WAY different time. Flying eventually devolved into an excuse for players to mongo their way through content and it did in fact limit game design. I mean look at Legion with those Kirin Tor WQ that got 100% invalidated once flying came out. Add in the people now who are like "waahhhhh I can't just swoop right in on a quest mob and avoid the things guarding him that would be more realistic". Flying has been a problem since around Cataclysm.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    I second this.. who the hell ever said Timeless Isle was great?

    I think I was done after 2 days with that zone, just to unlock the legendary cloak and that's it... except the very very boring farming of frogs at the end of the xpac.

    Or maybe you're mistaking it with the Isle of Thunder.. because that was actually good content.
    Couldn't fly there either so it still fits the bill. TI set the stage for some of the treasures in WoD and Legion and getting to some of the things was actually fun and would have been killed by flying.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Annka View Post
    I just find it ridiculous we need to do a whole achievements and reps to get flying, i don't enjoy being on the ground and it should be as it was before, paying with gold, if you want, sure make us get exalted with one rep of some kind and then some gold, but the whole pathfinders are ridiculous. People has always used hacks and discovered problems even on expansions without pathfinders, i don't give a damn, i want to be able to explore the world without being stuck on the ground, i like to fly and see the world bigger and people on the ground doing stuff while im farming herbs, makes the world seem bigger and more populated cause you can pass from places to places and 'oh look at it, there's someone killing those mobs, oh i just remembered now, i should do this too...' FLYING doesn't take the ability of not making us play more the game, if anything, makes us even want to explore more, because of how fast we want to get to a place, sometimes on the ground and always taking flight paths seems we take too much effort, calling for the whistle, talking with the flight master and send character to just the other side of the road when we could just fly there by ourselves but ground mount doesn't have enough speed.

    It's absurd. I do pathfinders cause i want flying, everyone wants flying, it shouldn't be needed to be at almost middle of the expansion to get it... It's not for our benefit to stay on the ground, i don't find it enjoyable, and i find it slow, i take more time on a ground mount to go somewhere cause even on some roads going without any mob attacking there's times we get dismounted and need to stop to fight that mob that we dont even care about, with flying, this doesn't happen, so nope this is not even a benefit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also with no flying makes us get out from a place as fast as we can and not exploring anything because we want to move to world quests, or doing some stuff, we don't really want to go anywhere because it takes too much time as it is already, for my experience this xpacs, WoD, Legion and BfA, not having flying was the worse thing for me and puts me off to even want to go somewhere.
    And this is an example of the lazy type of players this game has produced. "I want it this way because I want it this way" should not ever be a guiding force in game design.

  19. #159
    Herald of the Titans MrKnubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    I second this.. who the hell ever said Timeless Isle was great?

    I think I was done after 2 days with that zone, just to unlock the legendary cloak and that's it... except the very very boring farming of frogs at the end of the xpac.

    Or maybe you're mistaking it with the Isle of Thunder.. because that was actually good content.
    Wasn't a big fan of Isle of Thunder either. I just don't get the whole "rare hunting" enthusiasm. You just run around to specific spawn points to kill an enemy that isn't actually rare at all. I don't know what would make the experience more enjoyable for me. I just know that the same experience has been repeated multiple times now. Idle of Thunder, Timeless Isle, Tanaan Jungle, Argus and now the Warfront zones. At least Argus and Warfront zones have world quests.
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  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post

    Let me rephrase that for emphasis: The problem isn't with flight. It's with quest and objectives that are so simple and shallow that a trained cat could complete it.
    The playerbase wants it that way. Loads of people who do open world content don't want to be challenged at all, case in point the Kirin Tor WQs that were hated by some because anything more than killing X or filling Y bar confused players.

    Besides that, flying itself is also a total band-aid. It's not an interesting design, you just noclip through all the things with almost no limitations. You can give me the most high-quality content in the universe, but if I can noclip to the reward I'll maybe do the content once then skip it afterwards, and WoW has literally always been a rewards-based game as an MMO. Anything to "make it more interesting" would just be an added hassle, such as cannons that dismount you or airborne enemies. We had an environment that kinda simulated a flying zone in design, it was Vash'jir, and while the place is pretty its gameplay was disliked by most, yours truly very much included. If flying required skill and had cool mechanics supplemented by the level design like the gliding in the Arkham games, the grappling hook in Just Cause 2 or the blinking in Dishonored then I'd be all for it being available day 1, but in the state its in where it renders level design completely meaningless? Na, I'm OK with a bit of a delay.

    Pathfinder is fine in theory because not being to fly at first does make you explore the nooks and crannies and learn the routes through the levels. The implementation is the problem, it should be available in the .1 patch, not the .2 one, and tied more to questing and exploration achievements than reputation ones. But it's still better than brainless shit like Cata leveling. My word that was a disjointed mess, and flying invalidating the terrain instantly did not help.

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