Can we get one thing straight about the introduction of pathfinder?

[Lei]

It's funny how even when someone like you provides perfect evidence and arguments showing how it's not flight causing a problem, but people STILL won't admit it. That video you linked is someone doing EXACTLY what all the anti-flight people accuse fliers of doing.

"but muh immersionz!" What a crock of shit!

Someone like me? What's that supposed to mean? :O

[Mellrod]

OP you make a lot of claims but you don't really explain yourself. How exactly is Blizzard cutting corners by introducing pathfinder? Cutting corners implies they are trying to achieve something through cheap or easy methods. What exactly are they trying to achieve? If you say "The removal of flying mounts," lemme remind you that Pathfinder still allows you to fly eventually. Given that most players still want flying, wouldn't that make PF Achievements more of a compromise than a corner-cutter?

No one complained about flight in TBC.
No one complained about flight in WotLK.
No one complained about flight in Cataclysm.
No one complained about flight in MoP.
In WoD, suddenly, flight was a problem..

Flight was never the problem: WoD was..

No one complained about it because no one tried to remove it back then. Only by attempting to remove flying in WoD did everyone realise just how much they depend upon it. Also people did complain about flight in TBC. Since it was first introduced as a feature in BC, people complained about it the same way everyone complains about a new expansion every year.

[unbound]

If you can recall, flying was disabled in WoD because it would break phasing as well as some quest and cinematic triggers. Remember the PTR servers where flight was enabled and how painfully obvious it was that WoD wasn't designed with flight in mind at all?

Player feedback - regarding how great MoP's Timeless Isle content was - simply gave Blizzard a convenient excuse to keep everyone grounded in order to cut corners and push the already-delayed expansion out sooner.

To add to this, Tanaan Jungle was so vastly incomplete at launch, that they placed an impenetrable dome over it and people still found ways of getting inside.

Given how time-poor the development team were at getting content out the door - as Legion's development was already underway - Blizzard had initially decided to disable flight for the entire expansion rather than test and fix everything that flying broke.

I'm tired of reading that pathfinder was introduced to reinvigorate world PvP and exploration, because it wasn't. That's the corporate spiel trying to cover up the fact that disabling flight substantially reduces the amount of testing that needs to be done prior to launch.

Any praise of the pathfinder achievement only emboldens Blizzard's decision to cut corners, which could partially explain why the game is where it's at today.

EDIT: This isn't a thread about pro / anti flight. Too many people repeat the rhetoric that Blizzard did this for the player's benefit, which isn't true, and I'm setting the record straight.

TBH, the real reason pathfinder was introduced has a bit more story behind it, but this is directionally correct.

Blizz simply didn't want to expend the effort on completing all the zones from a flying perspective for WoD. They invented some excuses about wanting to invigorate PvP or a few other lines of BS to provide cover for the fact that they were simply being lazy.

After a large outcry on the subject and a substantial loss of subs, Blizz figured that they probably needed to do something about flying (no, not everyone quit because of the lack of flying, but it was a commonly cited issue that could be easily understood and actually addressed). The problem is that, as far as they were concerned, they were done with the base zones and had their limited personnel focused on things like Timeless Isle to be released. This means that they needed to buy time to reorganize the work (and probably move a few people back to the actual WoW team to complete the work from a flying approach).

The chosen approach to buy them time was Pathfinder. This way it could look like maybe, just maybe, they intended this all along (so they didn't really have to admit that they messed up) and it would give them enough time to balance out resources to complete the zone work needed to support flying.

In the meantime, Legion was already starting development with overall project plans largely set, and they likely assumed at that time that there would not be any flying in the game. Rather than trying to rework the schedule, they just decided to continue the Pathfinder trend and deal with it later. And, thus, the pattern will likely remain since it will forever give them a buffer (and, thus, require fewer resources to work on initial development) that they can always use.

[SirCowdog]

Someone like me? What's that supposed to mean? :O

It means you're being reasonable, and supporting your case with evidence instead of just claiming things. That's good!

[Relapses]

TBH, the real reason pathfinder was introduced has a bit more story behind it, but this is directionally correct.

Blizz simply didn't want to expend the effort on completing all the zones from a flying perspective for WoD. They invented some excuses about wanting to invigorate PvP or a few other lines of BS to provide cover for the fact that they were simply being lazy.

After a large outcry on the subject and a substantial loss of subs, Blizz figured that they probably needed to do something about flying (no, not everyone quit because of the lack of flying, but it was a commonly cited issue that could be easily understood and actually addressed). The problem is that, as far as they were concerned, they were done with the base zones and had their limited personnel focused on things like Timeless Isle to be released. This means that they needed to buy time to reorganize the work (and probably move a few people back to the actual WoW team to complete the work from a flying approach).

The chosen approach to buy them time was Pathfinder. This way it could look like maybe, just maybe, they intended this all along (so they didn't really have to admit that they messed up) and it would give them enough time to balance out resources to complete the zone work needed to support flying.

In the meantime, Legion was already starting development with overall project plans largely set, and they likely assumed at that time that there would not be any flying in the game. Rather than trying to rework the schedule, they just decided to continue the Pathfinder trend and deal with it later. And, thus, the pattern will likely remain since it will forever give them a buffer (and, thus, require fewer resources to work on initial development) that they can always use.

Hey, instead of creating this idiotic conspiracy theory where Blizzard simply tries to absolve itself of admitting any wrongdoing, how about thinking about the very real possibility that the developers just changed their fucking minds. Holy shit, you don't have to create this stupid fucking anti-flying narrative. It's not like Blizzard is sitting at headquarters rubbing their nipples thinking about players not being able to fly.

[cparle87]

You are missing the point, kind of your thing, eh?

You don't see the problem?
"Damnit Blizz listen to our feedback, do what we say." Followed by...
"Look at stupid Blizz backtracking from what they said they were going to do."
They can't win either way.

[Eggroll]

You don't see the problem?
"Damnit Blizz listen to our feedback, do what we say." Followed by...
"Look at stupid Blizz backtracking from what they said they were going to do."
They can't win either way.

Still not getting it... you are one hopeless case

[rrayy]

I'd say it's a logical assumption. There isn't really a lot of compelling evidence to the contrary.

Reasons why he's right about pathfinder being the "lazy-way-out":
1. WOD was rushed, original capitals were scrapped due to devs being behind.
2. Tanaan was delayed due to #1 as well
3. Safe to assume due to #1/#2, zones weren't designed with flying in mind.
4. Also due to lack of content in WOD they wanted us to consume it "slower" on the ground.

I'd really like to see the argument to the contrary. I just don't see how Pathfinder was actually necessary or justified for their actual reason/explanation. It doesn't add up or make sense when flying just "worked" since TBC, and nobody complained except a minority of WPVPers (others like myself actually didn't mind it).[/quote]I gave you an argument to the contrary. Ion and Blizzard's own words. You think it doesn't add up because you don't want it to add up. You have made up your mind that your narrative is fact, so anything that doesn't fit automatically doesn't add up in your mind. Nothing is safe to assume because you cannot prove it and Blizzard's own words basically debunk it not to mention their actions, or inaction, towards flying leading up to the infamous announcement.

Can you give me a list of good reasons why flying was actually disabled for the reasons they say? Honestly it feels like people clinging to this notion are doing it out of "fanboy-ism". Don't get me wrong, I appreciate when Blizzard does things right (they do many times), but I'm not afraid to call BS on things either. Let's break down the OP's initial statement:


1. The only thing that might make the smallest bit of sense was the cinematic cutscenes as you approach certain areas. Sure -- I will give them that. This is almost entirely exclusive to the leveling process though. They could have EASILY disabled flying until you reached 100 and completed the main questlines (a "soft" pathfinder at worst). There was no logical reason to make pathfinder as tedious as it was, and keep it from us for so long.

You have a bias, so nothing that is listed will ever bee seenm as good reasons. Blizzard gave you their reasons.

At any rate, I don't really care if they turn flying ON or OFF, but I wish they would just stick to their guns. I would rather have no flying at all, than having to wait halfway through an expansion and do a tedious chore list to enable flying. You used to just train flying at max level after you played through the game once - I thought that was good enough.
So you could say I am "IDGAF about Flying, but ANTI-Pathfinder".

Leveling a toon to max level doesn't come close to playing the game once. And of course you thought that was enough because you got flying for absolutely no effort other than what you were going to do to begin with and that is level to max. Laziness and entitlement rule all once it becomes the norm.

- - - Updated - - -

TBH, the real reason pathfinder was introduced has a bit more story behind it, but this is directionally correct.

Blizz simply didn't want to expend the effort on completing all the zones from a flying perspective for WoD. They invented some excuses about wanting to invigorate PvP or a few other lines of BS to provide cover for the fact that they were simply being lazy.

After a large outcry on the subject and a substantial loss of subs, Blizz figured that they probably needed to do something about flying (no, not everyone quit because of the lack of flying, but it was a commonly cited issue that could be easily understood and actually addressed). The problem is that, as far as they were concerned, they were done with the base zones and had their limited personnel focused on things like Timeless Isle to be released. This means that they needed to buy time to reorganize the work (and probably move a few people back to the actual WoW team to complete the work from a flying approach).

The chosen approach to buy them time was Pathfinder. This way it could look like maybe, just maybe, they intended this all along (so they didn't really have to admit that they messed up) and it would give them enough time to balance out resources to complete the zone work needed to support flying.

In the meantime, Legion was already starting development with overall project plans largely set, and they likely assumed at that time that there would not be any flying in the game. Rather than trying to rework the schedule, they just decided to continue the Pathfinder trend and deal with it later. And, thus, the pattern will likely remain since it will forever give them a buffer (and, thus, require fewer resources to work on initial development) that they can always use.

This is not the real reason at all. This is nothing more than your crackpot consipracy theory. The real reason was they simply changed their minds and did so repeatedly.

[RobertoCarlos]

They've effectively removed flying from the game by time gating it for 90% of the expansions life cycle.

Pisses me off.

[Fabinas]

Hey, instead of creating this idiotic conspiracy theory where Blizzard simply tries to absolve itself of admitting any wrongdoing, how about thinking about the very real possibility that the developers just changed their fucking minds. Holy shit, you don't have to create this stupid fucking anti-flying narrative. It's not like Blizzard is sitting at headquarters rubbing their nipples thinking about players not being able to fly.

Oh, we got it that they changed their minds. It's the narrative of WHY they changed their minds we're discussing and what they decided to announce as a reason they changed their minds. The latter one was bullshit. The true reason was always faster (and low quality) content designing and delivering. Also stretching said content.

Proved after WoD, Legion and BfA.

[rrayy]

No one complained about flight in TBC.
No one complained about flight in MoP.
In WoD, suddenly, flight was a problem..

Flight was never the problem: WoD was..

Th is is flat out false. During MOP, you had thread after thread in the official forums wanting flying removed form the game. This is a factor in Blizzard's initial decision to delay flying until a future patch. People absolutely were complaining about flying and many who complained wanted it gone.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, we got it that they changed their minds. It's the narrative of WHY they changed their minds we're discussing and what they decided to announce as a reason they changed their minds. The latter one was bullshit. The true reason was always faster (and low quality) content designing and delivering. Also stretching said content.

Proved after WoD, Legion and BfA.

Sorry, not proved at all. You making baseless declarations does not = proof.

[Lei]

Th is is flat out false. During MOP, you had thread after thread in the official forums wanting flying removed form the game. This is a factor in Blizzard's initial decision to delay flying until a future patch. People absolutely were complaining about flying and many who complained wanted it gone.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry, not proved at all. You making baseless declarations does not = proof.

They are literally saying reasons why they wanted to remove flying in that interview. But those reasons are false. Not true. Those reasons didn't hold up back then and much less now, 2 expacs later. They go against those "reasons"twice as much with other actions.

If I'm telling you I'm a vegan and friend of the animals so I don't eat cute bunnies and cows and etc.

And then you catch me using products that test on animals (where they suffer more), you find animal fur coat in my closet, I'm throwing away plastic bags left right and center... Then am I the friend of the animals? Seriously now.

[Okacz]

No one complained about it because no one tried to remove it back then. Only by attempting to remove flying in WoD did everyone realise just how much they depend upon it. Also people did complain about flight in TBC. Since it was first introduced as a feature in BC, people complained about it the same way everyone complains about a new expansion every year.

On the other hand, people were asking for flying in vanilla, since spending most time on flight paths was sort of tedious. Yes, it was a feature players used to request, not only for convenience but also for the immersiveness and coolness of flying a damn dragon in a fantasy game.

When BC introduced it, it was a big deal. Whole paragraph about flying on the box. People loved it, what's not to love. There's content designed for flight, zones that allowed you to land on mountain peaks. You cut the downtime of hauling your ass through the same wasteland on mount for the nth time, of using the FP. And, well, you could fly. Yes, a few people complained, but nothing to create 20+ page threads about.

There wasn't a big "Fly or no fly" argument when it was introduced, only when removed. People did jump on hatewagon when decision was already made to remove it. And, well, it does make you wonder that the most ambitios, rich in content expansion was the one to introduce flying, while the one with the least shit to do - WoD - chose to remove the feature that gave devs extra work.

[Ielenia]

Early flight in Cataclysm demonstrably ruined questing flow. It was hop from one hub to the next and ignore everything inbetween.

You mean just like I take a flight path to a specific point, hop on my ground mount and just run to my objective, ignoring everything in-between, like I've been doing since... I don't know, forever?

If you actually ground-level walk through Hyjal, Uldum and Twilight Highlands, they are gorgeous. Only Deepholm really -required- flight.

And Netherstorm. And Shadowmoon Valley (BC). And Scholazar Basin. And Icecrown. And Stormpeaks. And Uldum. And Twilight Highlands...

• Netherstorm: you're not accessing some of the islands, and Tempest Keep, without a flying mount.
• Shadowmoon Valley: you're not accessing the Netherwing island at the southeast without a flying mount.
• Scholazar Basin: you're not accessing the Titan rooms or the top of the terraforming pillars without a flying mouth.
• Icecrown: you're not accessing some of the islands, or the flying ships, without a flying mount.
• Stormpeaks: you're not accessing the mountains, or Ulduar and the dungeons, without a flying mount.
• Uldum: you're not accessing the raid and dungeon without a flying mount.
• Twilight Highlands: you're not accessing the raid without a flying mount.

[Relapses]

Oh, we got it that they changed their minds. It's the narrative of WHY they changed their minds we're discussing and what they decided to announce as a reason they changed their minds. The latter one was bullshit. The true reason was always faster (and low quality) content designing and delivering. Also stretching said content.

Proved after WoD, Legion and BfA.

Your assertion does not make it a fact. The fact that an expansion exists is not proof of anything, lmfao. You're just bolstering your own shitty opinion with the oh-so-fucking-original cynicism that the only reason Blizzard ever does or doesn't do anything is because fuck you.

Get over it, dude.

[Steelangel]

And Netherstorm. And Shadowmoon Valley (BC). And Scholazar Basin. And Icecrown. And Stormpeaks. And Uldum. And Twilight Highlands...

All but one of your examples refers to content that is not in Cataclysm or refers to end-game content. I don’t see your point? There’s even IIRC a flight to skywall dungeon for toons who don’t have flying.

[Ielenia]

All but one of your examples refers to content that is not in Cataclysm or refers to end-game content. I don’t see your point? There’s even IIRC a flight to skywall dungeon for toons who don’t have flying.

You were talking about zones that required flying, and I've shown you zones that required flying. If it's "end-game content" or not doesn't matter. And there's no flight path to Skywall. You might be confusing with the "rescue Thrall" questline where an air elemental flies you there for the quest.

[Steelangel]

You were talking about zones that required flying, and I've shown you zones that required flying. If it's "end-game content" or not doesn't matter. And there's no flight path to Skywall. You might be confusing with the "rescue Thrall" questline where an air elemental flies you there for the quest.

I was talking about zones that required flying in Cataclysm. You posted BC and WotLK zones. I was talking about how flying really made a lot of places in Hyjal and TH (which it was obvious a lot of work went into) "flyover country".

Don't get butthurt because you didn't read my initial argument and decided to punch your favored strawman.

[SirCowdog]

It's not like Blizzard is sitting at headquarters rubbing their nipples thinking about players not being able to fly.

Honestly, if you go back and find some of the video interviews with Blizzard devs right before WoD launched, they pretty much are(figuratively speaking) doing exactly that. They REALLY thought that no-flying was going to be this big way to reinvigorate WoW.

Pathfinder is just a big scam to get to keep a No-Flying design while letting players believe that it's still a worthy reward. It's not. Mostly what I hear from people is disappointment with how long No-Flying is going on for. Maybe that's just confirmation bias. Maybe not.

[Relapses]

Honestly, if you go back and find some of the video interviews with Blizzard devs right before WoD launched, they pretty much are(figuratively speaking) doing exactly that. They REALLY thought that no-flying was going to be this big way to reinvigorate WoW.

No, they weren't. The devs thought that no flying was the way to go. Then they decided maybe it wasn't. That's it. Nothing else happened. For fuck's sake dude, developers have the right to make decisions and change their minds when they realize it doesn't pan out the way they wanted. Not everything has to fit some dumb fucking narrative that essentially boils down to their reasoning always being "because fuck you."