Can we get one thing straight about the introduction of pathfinder?

[Relapses]

Shure. Were you around that time? Because I was, and I remember.

https://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/...ng-in-draenor/

We appreciate the spirited discussion on the topic of flying. The subject has brought out passionate viewpoints and sparked insightful conversations on our official forums and blogs, on community sites, and in chat channels. Your feedback has been a valuable part of the ongoing conversations within Blizzard as well, and today, we’d like to share some updated plans for how we’ll handle flight going forward.

I never said player feedback wasn't considered. I said it wasn't the sole contributing factor to their decision to implement Pathfinding. We'll never know the internal dynamics of Blizzard's decision making process or what made them ultimately change their mind. Part of me wishes they hadn't changed their minds because I personally don't think the issue was nearly as important as flying advocates on this forum seem to think it is.

Further, I stand by developers reserving the right to make controversial decisions then sticking to their guns. Pathfinding's introduction is a rare example of Blizzard backtracking on a design philosophy and look what that's got us: 15 fucking pages of silly conspiracy theories about how the "real" reason they didn't have flying available from the onset of WoD is because they're an incompetent company incapable of admitting they didn't have enough resources to create the game with flying in mind.

[Lei]

This must be the greatest bullshit spin on listening to player feedback. I get it if you are upset if you give feedback and they don't listen. But making listening to feedback into this is just absurd..

But he kinda did say that. https://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/...ng-in-draenor/

At the heart of the initial plan to restrict flight in Draenor (even after players reach level 100) lies the design goal of providing the best moment-to-moment gameplay possible in the outdoor world. From navigating the lava flows of the Molten Front in Patch 4.2, to breaching the Thunder King’s stronghold in Patch 5.2, to reaching the heights of the Ordon Sanctuary on Timeless Isle in Patch 5.4, to uncovering secrets deep within Gorgrond’s jungles on Draenor, World of Warcraft is full of memorable moments that are only possible when players explore the world by ground. And as we’ve continued to develop content over the years, we’ve focused more and more on providing players with these kinds of experiences.

He lists the BEST patches as examples why non flying was good. So if the patch was good -> players enjoyed it -> players enjoyed it without flying -> flying can go.

[Dhrizzle]

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say anymore. What, that they just flipped a coin and made a decision in a vacuum without any consideration?

You even said yourself that they made the decision because "they realize it doesn't pan out the way they wanted". Why do you think it didn't pan out? Certainly the player feedback and backlash against the idea had SOME influence on that decision, wouldn't you agree? And judging by the way Blizzard devs talked about no-flying, I think it's fair to say that some of them didn't like that they had to go back to having flight in the world.

Hazzicostas himself(you know, the guy who's the LEAD GAME DESIGNER) is on record as saying he believes flight "actually detracted from gameplay in a whole lot of ways" and has NEVER actually changed his stance on that. The closest he's ever come to that is the repeated line of "Master the ground first, get to fly over it later" followed almost immediately by releasing Argus where you don't get to fly and CAN'T fly despite "mastering the ground". What message do you think that sends other than "Fuck you" to players who want flying?

And even if we throw away all emotion, you still have to recognize that Pathfinder is knocking out three birds with one stone: They still get to develop and design a world without flying, AND they get to provide a carrot for players that encourages more of that design to be consider. All while still nominally giving players access to flight and quashing complaints about no-flying.

Even if it has nothing to do with throwing a "because fuck you" at players, you have to at least see how it is still practically and effectively a no-flying World of Warcraft. Do you really think that's coincidence? That it's like that just because the devs decided randomly to set it up that way? Or is it more plausible that someone(Ion) is married to the idea of No-flying to such a degree that they're still imposing the idea on the game?

I'm sorry if you don't want to look at the actions, and are instead stuck on the words. The pattern of behavior that Blizzard has shown towards flight is very much a "fuck you" directed at players.

I see you've regressed to your "Ion is doing this for personal reasons as an insult to players" stage. I've highlighted one paragraph because whilst you've framed that as a bad thing it's actually pretty damn good. The Pathfinder allows the devs to make the game in a way they find more interesting and engaging, players get a reward to work towards and flying is available later for leveling alts and sightseeing. It really is a win-win-win!

[SirCowdog]

Also...where did you read the removal of flying was Blizzards ONLY reason? AFAIK it was also not least about immersion and doing quests as they are supposed to be done instead of swooping in and killing the objective.

....in theory it DOES help world pvp and it makes the world more dangerous to travel and more immersive if you want to look at it from that way.

They could also have made it cost gold and really fuck most people over by making it cost one million gold.

I want you to challenge yourself to take a step back and look at this from a more objective manner.

Players were already immersed in a world WITH flying. If removing flight was about immersion, how does taking it away increase that feeling? For many players, watching the flying mounts they worked so hard for(rare mounts and dragons and such) simply forget how to fly, without any context, was actually LESS immersive. I think there's enough contention on that point to rule out immersion as a real explanation.

As for world doing quests "as they're supposed to be done": Have you ever considered the fundamental flaw of creating a solution which results in taking things away from players in a progression-based game? Why not build upon the fact that flight exists, and give players more to look forward to in terms of both rewards and challenges instead of crippling players and using easier and more simple quests?

As for PVP... While it's technically true that flying makes WPVP more selective, both in terms of attackers and victims, to say that it "harms" PVP is questionable. I think if you want to argue this point, you should be adding to your stance the lack of WPVP objectives or incentives.

And gold...I think everyone is mostly in agreement that a gold cost to unlock flying is a bad idea. It doesn't actually address ANY of the points either side of the argument is making. Nor does it in any way change the issue of the open world design.

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We just had a conversation about how Blizz have experimented with Apexis zones, world quests and now they're going for something different with Mechagon. Your problem isn't with stagnation, it's just that the content isn't going the way you want it.

Correct. The way I want it is for Blizzard to innovate and advance.

Apexis was just daily quests with a "fill the progress bar" then copy/pasted to different zones. That's not innovation. It's a different coat of paint.

World Quests are only marginally better, but are fundamentally just randomized daily quests. One tiny step forward, then copy/pasted across 2 expansions.

From what I've seen of Mechagon beta videos, it's just Timeless Isle 2.0. Again, tiny insignificant steps forward.

This isn't really much in the way of progress. The underlying gameplay is still exactly the same. The formula is still the same. They aren't innovating. They're just tweaking and giving it a slightly different presentation. That's why I refer to it as stagnation. And if they keep following that path the game is going to continue to decline.

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The Pathfinder allows the devs to make the game in a way they find more interesting and engaging, players get a reward to work towards and flying is available later for leveling alts and sightseeing. It really is a win-win-win!

If Blizzard really thinks that the current open world design is actually more interesting and engaging, it's no wonder MAUs and engagement figures are down. They keep churning out the same stuff, and people get sick of it. As I said before: Stagnation.

[Starscream101]

What moron said that? It makes zero sense.
Flying hinders world pvp very much.
And any feeling of a grand world, worthy of exploring.

Flying never hinder my world PvP at all in fact it made it better to go find people out in the world. even if they mounted and flew off I was above them and right be hind them from BC to BFA they dont get away unless its a druid or rogue stealth is a bitch still.

[Ielenia]

Dude there is a flight to the skybreaker, in icecrown

There is one? Where?

also no quests send you up to the skywall, other then the dungeon, so nah, you dont need flying there.

It's still content that is inaccessible without a flying mount.

[SirCowdog]

There is one? Where?

By talking to this guy. Although I was under the impression that it was a one-shot deal. And according to the wiki, he won't send you to the Skybreaker unless you already have cold-weather flying. Not sure if its been updated recently.

[Dhrizzle]

I want you to challenge yourself to take a step back and look at this from a more objective manner.

Players were already immersed in a world WITH flying. If removing flight was about immersion, how does taking it away increase that feeling? For many players, watching the flying mounts they worked so hard for(rare mounts and dragons and such) simply forget how to fly, without any context, was actually LESS immersive. I think there's enough contention on that point to rule out immersion as a real explanation.

As for world doing quests "as they're supposed to be done": Have you ever considered the fundamental flaw of creating a solution which results in taking things away from players in a progression-based game? Why not build upon the fact that flight exists, and give players more to look forward to in terms of both rewards and challenges instead of crippling players and using easier and more simple quests?

As for PVP... While it's technically true that flying makes WPVP more selective, both in terms of attackers and victims, to say that it "harms" PVP is questionable. I think if you want to argue this point, you should be adding to your stance the lack of WPVP objectives or incentives.

And gold...I think everyone is mostly in agreement that a gold cost to unlock flying is a bad idea. It doesn't actually address ANY of the points either side of the argument is making. Nor does it in any way change the issue of the open world design.

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Correct. The way I want it is for Blizzard to innovate and advance.

Apexis was just daily quests with a "fill the progress bar" then copy/pasted to different zones. That's not innovation. It's a different coat of paint.

It was an entirely knew way of setting objectives. Instead of being told "here's an area, here's a shopping list to fill in" it's just "here's an area, go find out what works."

World Quests are only marginally better, but are fundamentally just randomized daily quests. One tiny step forward, then copy/pasted across 2 expansions.

World quests were a step back in my opinion, going back to the "shopping list" style quests was not a good move in my opinion. At least the randomised nature cuts down on the chore-like feeling when you do the exact same thing every day.

From what I've seen of Mechagon beta videos, it's just Timeless Isle 2.0. Again, tiny insignificant steps forward.

Yeah, iteration on design based on what has worked previously, I doubt Blizz will ever make a sweeping change that fundamentally alters the way the game is played.

This isn't really much in the way of progress. The underlying gameplay is still exactly the same. The formula is still the same. They aren't innovating. They're just tweaking and giving it a slightly different presentation. That's why I refer to it as stagnation. And if they keep following that path the game is going to continue to decline.

The underlying gameplay is the same because we're playing the same game. If your definition of "stagnation" is "the game is still WoW" then I want "stagnation," if I wanted to play a different game then different games exist.

[Ielenia]

By talking to this guy. Although I was under the impression that it was a one-shot deal. And according to the wiki, he won't send you to the Skybreaker unless you already have cold-weather flying. Not sure if its been updated recently.

Pretty sure that guy is a one-shot deal. I don't remember even having the option to speak to him again once I got the quest and turned it in at the Skybreaker.

[Fabinas]

First the link on site news to the announcement of Draenor Pathfinder: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ing-in-Draenor

Second, I've always thought from what I remember of the tweets and blue posts of that period that the developers were desperate for someone to come up with something...anything...that might resemble a compromise and resolve the impasse. Companies of scale can move pretty quickly if someone has a bright idea although it was a mystery to me that they took so long to figure this one out as many had suggested something similar. Whether it was Chilton's decision to go ahead with it (he was game director at that point) or something else doesn't matter. It is the nature of Gordian Knots to be resolved suddenly.

It's also worth commenting that this was still the time after which GC had left and Blizzard's communications on just about everything were hilariously and incompetently confused. There were clear examples at the time of the various developer's tweeting out one thing or another that directly contradicted something another developer had just tweeted out. Blizzard may be a company of scale, no argument there, but at that time they were clearly out of their depths on not only how to communicate to players but to one another. So there may never be a clear history of what really happened with this.

I'm still somewhat baffled that after almost five years on this there are still some that believe that forum posts are going to change anyone's mind about this. I suppose that given Blizzard's rather mercurial decision-making there is still hope that there can be an influence but at this point I don't think the devs are really paying any attention to this argument. Even now most of the passion about flying on this site is wrapped up in a dozen or so posters. It's passionate enough but there's no sign that any sort of populist movement is afoot. If the Pathfinder thing is truly that objectionable I would guess that people have long left and whatever price was to be paid for that has been paid in full years ago.

EDIT: My on-topic comments about the thread are earlier (#35). TL-DR is that Blizzard has all sorts of reasons for why they do things and usually only communicate some of them. The only further comment I have about the op is that there seems to be a belief stated that simplifying the QA for zones and making them less susceptible to bugs is some bad thing. That's arguable but irrelevant at this point as zones are stood up now for flying, bugs included. So making a case about something that happened years ago is sort of a waste of time. Put it down to the nature of forums I guess.

I don't think the flying debacle can be assigned to mis/malcommunication. It was announced on a formal interview by a leading dev. I very much doubt he announced this without having a discussion with the rest of the dev team and taking a (strategic for the course of the game) decision beforehand. The sudden (within a month) change can only be attributed to player backlash (as those articles i linked state) about this decision. Player reaction forced Blizzard's hand to withdraw flying removal and introduce Pathfinder.

Personally, the only reason i discuss this matter here is that it was the first (not last, that was the excessive RNG reward scheme in Legion) drop in the bucket that caused me to change my stance towards Blizzard. I then started to realise that something had changed in the game direction, that dev/player communication was not-so-honest anymore (with true reasons hidden away and generic reasons announced to us, just to save face). And since those 5 years, i have seen this growing worse and never better. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about what happened back then. But since it's such a blatant and (clear to my eyes at least) example of the downfall the player/dev communication and game direction, i do use the discussion as a step to show how we came today to such player division (with lovers and haters).
Kinda like ASOIAF fans who turned detractors, because of GRRM's "laziness" to prodce better quality books since "A Feast for Crows".

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This must be the greatest bullshit spin on listening to player feedback. I get it if you are upset if you give feedback and they don't listen. But making listening to feedback into this is just absurd.

Also...where did you read the removal of flying was Blizzards ONLY reason? AFAIK it was also not least about immersion and doing quests as they are supposed to be done instead of swooping in and killing the objective.

And yeah, ofc that stretches the time you need to do things - if you look at it at from the side where you want to shit on a company...but in theory it DOES help world pvp and it makes the world more dangerous to travel and more immersive if you want to look at it from that way.

They could also have made it cost gold and really fuck most people over by making it cost one million gold.

Other than that, nice tinfoil. One of their things has been "when it is ready" and they have been scolded for it...and x-pacs coming unfinished...well...not excusing it, but people were annoyed that Illidan, the selling point of TBC was nowhere to be found and patched in later. I don't think you could do anything at / in BT before the patch came.

I wish people stopped using the World PvP argument when it comes to flight. Back in WoD, we had PvP servers and PvE servers. Unless you produce evidence that the PvP server community was at uproar because of flight existence and MUCH bigger than the PvE one, it's such a minor importance argument to remove flight.

[quite an expert in wow]

No one complained about flight in TBC.
No one complained about flight in WotLK.
No one complained about flight in Cataclysm.
No one complained about flight in MoP.
In WoD, suddenly, flight was a problem..

Flight was never the problem: WoD was..

Or, people find a way to complain about things they don't like every single expansion.

[Fabinas]

We just had a conversation about how Blizz have experimented with Apexis zones, world quests and now they're going for something different with Mechagon. Your problem isn't with stagnation, it's just that the content isn't going the way you want it.

Don't judge content before you see it.

[SirCowdog]

It was an entirely knew way of setting objectives. Instead of being told "here's an area, here's a shopping list to fill in" it's just "here's an area, go find out what works."

Entirely new way for WoW. It wasn't a new concept for MMORPGs. GW2 had been doing it for awhile. But I take your meaning. However, "here's an area, find out what works" amounted to two things: Kill anything and everything, and click stuff. I agree that it was slightly better than traditional Daily Quests, but it was also just taking existing daily quests objectives and throwing everything in every quest. In that way it was actually un-creative.

World quests were a step back in my opinion, going back to the "shopping list" style quests was not a good move in my opinion. At least the randomised nature cuts down on the chore-like feeling when you do the exact same thing every day.

Except that, like Apexis, you're just taking everything from every daily quest and throwing it all in the pot. In a lot of ways you ARE just doing the same thing every day, especially since the pool of WQs is very small, resulting in seeing the same things over and over. Added to the complete lack of context(which daily quests at least had some amount of) it definitely creates that feeling of chores.

The underlying gameplay is the same because we're playing the same game. If your definition of "stagnation" is "the game is still WoW" then I want "stagnation," if I wanted to play a different game then different games exist.

The point you're attempting to avoid is that the game can still be WoW, but with improvements. BfA has been a regression almost across the board. It didn't take the game forward at all. We're now almost a year in and only MAYBE getting back to the point where Legion was. Why do you find that acceptable?

[MoanaLisa]

I don't think the flying debacle can be assigned to mis/malcommunication. It was announced on a formal interview by a leading dev. I very much doubt he announced this without having a discussion with the rest of the dev team and taking a (strategic for the course of the game) decision beforehand. The sudden (within a month) change can only be attributed to player backlash (as those articles i linked state) about this decision. Player reaction forced Blizzard's hand to withdraw flying removal and introduce Pathfinder.

The miscommunication though made everyone, including the developers more confused as there were days when directly conflicting things were coming out of various accounts. GC was gone at that point and a new point person had yet to emerge so it was all of them sort of firing stuff off at random. A lot of people just wanted an answer one way or the other. In some respects it's arguable that the Pathfinder compromise was worse than just pulling flying entirely and sticking with it. The break would have been cleaner. A good compromise doesn't make anyone happy. Devs still have to deal with their creaky old 3D engine and a few players still think they can crack this. I don't have much of an opinion either way except to note the phenomenal dissonance about announcing the removal of flight from the game while Warlords had a flying mount as part of its reward for buying a CE. Just bad business all the way.

[tankbug]

designing a world to use flying is so much nicer.

instead, corporatist cost cutting has been enabled by these pathetic idiots talking about world pvp.

but, might as well just fucking move on op. nothing's going to change. or maybe it will, when all of these goddamned mongrels fuck off to classic and quit shitting up live.

I don't care about PVP, but I do think flying diminishes the experience and immersion we're supposed to get out of map design. If you don't care about such things, and only want to quickly farm WQs, then fine, but for me, flying is just a slow teleport to a specific location, eliminating terrain, obstacles, enemies and structures. Now, as you say, they could design zones with flying in mind, but what would they be like? Something like Mario Galaxy? I don't see how any of them would really work.

[SirCowdog]

Pretty sure that guy is a one-shot deal. I don't remember even having the option to speak to him again once I got the quest and turned it in at the Skybreaker.

As a point of importance, he won't send you to the Skybreaker unless you already know how to fly. So technically you do still need flying to get there.

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they could design zones with flying in mind, but what would they be like? Something like Mario Galaxy? I don't see how any of them would really work.

Start with something like Stormpeaks. That's one example.

Now expand on that and fill parts of the sky with airships you could land on for various quests or objectives, or even just quest hubs. Now add floating islands, or deep caverns/valleys with various objectives scattered vertically instead of horizontally.

Include objectives such as timed races or mid-air obstacle courses. Mix in bombing runs, both freeform and on-rails paths. Place some of the content indoors so it's not exclusively flight-only.

The mistake I see a lot of people make is that when someone calls for the open world to include or use flying, it's assumed that they want 100% of the content to use flying. That's not required. All you need is to create an atmosphere of flight. Whatever form the terrain takes, be it large mountains, cliffs, caverns like Blackrock Mountain, or skies filled with floating islands, Naxx-like fortresses, and Legion ships, is up to how creative the level designers want to get. The important part is that there is some content which is traditional ground style, but ALSO some content which either requires flight or uses flight to get there.

The problem is this idea that the ONLY way to create immersive content is by using mostly flat areas with open sky and ground-based barriers. That's why flying is perceived as being so harmful: Because the content is being built so flat that almost any form of non-grounded movement breaks it.

[Ielenia]

As a point of importance, he won't send you to the Skybreaker unless you already know how to fly. So technically you do still need flying to get there.

Exactly.

Start with something like Stormpeaks. That's one example.

Isn't Highmountain basically "like" Stormpeaks, only adapted for no-flying? The zone is basically one entire, huge mountain. A zone like that pre-WoD (i.e. pre-Pathfinder) would be inaccessible without a flying mount.

[derpkitteh]

I don't care about PVP, but I do think flying diminishes the experience and immersion we're supposed to get out of map design. If you don't care about such things, and only want to quickly farm WQs, then fine, but for me, flying is just a slow teleport to a specific location, eliminating terrain, obstacles, enemies and structures. Now, as you say, they could design zones with flying in mind, but what would they be like? Something like Mario Galaxy? I don't see how any of them would really work.

here's your immersion, bro

https://imgur.com/a/KGAvS

not being able to fly 100% immersive, right?

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

Do you think flying should be enabled from an expansions start? Do you think it should just cost gold? Do you think flying should be completely disabled?

zone by zone. every zone you complete the story questing and unlocking all points on that zones map should enable flight there. say you've mastered Drustvar, but not Stormsong. Be aware, if you get high and forget and start flying from Drustvar into Stormsong, a lightning bolt flashes and knocks you off your mount potentially making you fall to your death.

this would make you keep in mind what you haven't completed, and give you some incentive to do it so you could fly seamlessly. also, maybe make a flightmode once you've unlocked all locations where you can toggle it on and off. get better rewards on world quests for having flight turned off.

somethin'.

[Gatto]

I don't care about PVP, but I do think flying diminishes the experience and immersion we're supposed to get out of map design. If you don't care about such things, and only want to quickly farm WQs, then fine, but for me, flying is just a slow teleport to a specific location, eliminating terrain, obstacles, enemies and structures. Now, as you say, they could design zones with flying in mind, but what would they be like? Something like Mario Galaxy? I don't see how any of them would really work.

I do care about pvp but I do agree about the diminishing experience and immersion.
But this just in terms of exploration.

The perfect setup to me would be something like gw2, where you have to explore/farm/grind once and forever, then you are mostly free from any timesink ( which is related to gameplay, not to aesthetic ):

- Teleports instead of fly path ( everytime you fly from a point to another, it's time lost. This would also work from a world to another, like azeroth > draenor ).
- Content accessible from the current capital ( No more runs to mythic+/raids ).
- No cd on stuff like hs/toys/portals

Then a non flying mount could be affordable, since we do have everything we need to "play", for stuff like world quests or gathering.