Thread: Raid difficulty

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  1. #21
    The quality of players has likely gone down. Not much reason to step foot in one without the chance for a warforged tier piece, chance at a legiondary, or warforged trinket that's actually good (raid trinkets are meh this xpac). 400 gear is whatever with all the other sources of gear. Azerite is guaranteed to drop at base 400 and odds are that's worthless to you too. I also think there's also just a lot of good players that used to pug raids in group finder, that focus on m+ instead of raiding now because they found a community to join. We're also later in the tier with BoD. I'd imagine a lot of players just stopped pugging it after a month or so. Normal BoDs lifespan must have been extremely limited with the loot it drops.
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2019-05-18 at 07:43 AM.

  2. #22
    Not sure, my experience is that heroic is too easy and is cleared in 1 or 2 weeks all the time and you are fully geared in 4.

    So I'm now at alt #6-7 because mythic+ made it useless.

    Nighthold and Tomb of Sargeras, and Trial of Valor lasted a lot longer.

    Right now you can faceroll the first 5 bosses on mythic in a pug, so saying heroic is hard would be weird.

    Going to assume your issue is shit players because the good ones are all selling boosts.
    Last edited by Spotnick; 2019-05-18 at 04:56 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    Not sure, my experience is that heroic is too easy and is cleared in 1 or 2 weeks all the time and you are fully geared in 4.

    So I'm now at alt #6-7 because mythic+ made it useless.

    Nighthold and Tomb of Sargeras, and Trial of Valor lasted a lot longer.

    Right now you can faceroll the first 5 bosses on mythic in a pug, so saying heroic is hard would be weird.

    Going to assume your issue is shit players because the good ones are all selling boosts.
    Out of touch much. Your ego must really have its own room with how full of yourself you are.

    It can't be denied that raiding has shifted in design. Where in the past you really saw a big impact on how bosses felt as you geared in the instance, that is no longer the case. There are hardly any enrages left, or just straight up dps races.

    Instead most bosses have become mechanical fights, where one misstep will kill you independant of your gear. Also if someone messes up it is likely to ripple more as there are a lot more mechanics that not only punish the person that messes up, but also the rest of the raid.
    What this means is that a lot of fights don't really get onto the "farm" status that they were before. This means reclears take more time (for the average raider, I am sure Spotnick just multi boxes his raids as they are so easy) as kill times don't really change after the initial kill and one person not paying attention (on farm) can result in a wipe.

    This also means that "fun runs" where you just go in with overgeared mains and some alts aren't really as big a thing anymore.
    Which I find to be a shame.

    Part of this is due to how gearing has changed. With so many sources of gear and titanforging, if raids could be brute forced they could be the second week they come out with the amount of gear players have access too. So the only way to keep the lifetime of raids longer is to make gear mean little in there and focus on fights where the difficulty lies in the mechanics.

    Major downside is that "farming" raids, which is quite a large part of raiding, now requires high levels of concentration and focus, resulting in tired raiders for the progress boss. Combine this with the fact that for most raiders there are hardly any gear upgrades to look forward to that would make the progress boss easier, raid teams hit walls quicker and raiding fatigue sets in.

    I do think there is a major issue with the effort to reward ratio of raiding at the moment compared to other sources. Having alts that haven't stepped into Mythic+ or raiding running around at item level 400 feels wrong, especially with how much effort it takes to get your raiding main to above 415 itemlevel.
    If this keeps up it will kill normal and heroic raiding even more than it already has.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Sageless View Post
    Out of touch much. Your ego must really have its own room with how full of yourself you are.

    It can't be denied that raiding has shifted in design. Where in the past you really saw a big impact on how bosses felt as you geared in the instance, that is no longer the case. There are hardly any enrages left, or just straight up dps races.

    Instead most bosses have become mechanical fights, where one misstep will kill you independant of your gear. Also if someone messes up it is likely to ripple more as there are a lot more mechanics that not only punish the person that messes up, but also the rest of the raid.
    What this means is that a lot of fights don't really get onto the "farm" status that they were before. This means reclears take more time (for the average raider, I am sure Spotnick just multi boxes his raids as they are so easy) as kill times don't really change after the initial kill and one person not paying attention (on farm) can result in a wipe.

    This also means that "fun runs" where you just go in with overgeared mains and some alts aren't really as big a thing anymore.
    Which I find to be a shame.

    Part of this is due to how gearing has changed. With so many sources of gear and titanforging, if raids could be brute forced they could be the second week they come out with the amount of gear players have access too. So the only way to keep the lifetime of raids longer is to make gear mean little in there and focus on fights where the difficulty lies in the mechanics.

    Major downside is that "farming" raids, which is quite a large part of raiding, now requires high levels of concentration and focus, resulting in tired raiders for the progress boss. Combine this with the fact that for most raiders there are hardly any gear upgrades to look forward to that would make the progress boss easier, raid teams hit walls quicker and raiding fatigue sets in.

    I do think there is a major issue with the effort to reward ratio of raiding at the moment compared to other sources. Having alts that haven't stepped into Mythic+ or raiding running around at item level 400 feels wrong, especially with how much effort it takes to get your raiding main to above 415 itemlevel.
    If this keeps up it will kill normal and heroic raiding even more than it already has.
    I'm not out of touch at all, since Antorus the raids have been easier, the only difficult boss in Antorus was Aggramar, the only difficult boss in Uldir was G'huun and the only difficult boss in BFD is Jaina.

    Now I will agree that titanforged armor caused the problem that farm feels less easy than before because we kill bosses which an ilvl equivalent if not superior to what the raid is dropping, that is true, the feeling of power you usually get as you progress is gone, and that was a problem in Legion as well..

    The problem is evident, there is just too much gear given to use by too many sources at the moment. You get heroic raid loot by doing warfronts, kill 20 people, run 4 dungeons, and better loot than heroic raids by doing +10 keys.

    Pretty sure the only way to fix that is to get back to having gear specialization... pvp gear, raid gear, dungeon gear and world content gear.. with azerite bonuses focused to improve your abilities in that instance in particular, like the reorigination array from Uldir. Gear is still usable for the other content, just not optimal. Antorus trinkets were also doing that.

    You may think I'm out of touch, but since Antorus I've been clearing heroic on week 1, which I have never achieved before... we usually struggle a lot more on the end boss.. and we do it in less time too, I remember raiding a lot more to down bosses in let's say Hellfire Citadel..

    So I'm quite sure it's the pug player pool that got worst, because I don't think we got better, and the ilvl difference is very minimal now between casuals and raiders, so I don't know what to say.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Sageless View Post
    Out of touch much. Your ego must really have its own room with how full of yourself you are.

    It can't be denied that raiding has shifted in design. Where in the past you really saw a big impact on how bosses felt as you geared in the instance, that is no longer the case. There are hardly any enrages left, or just straight up dps races.

    Instead most bosses have become mechanical fights, where one misstep will kill you independant of your gear. Also if someone messes up it is likely to ripple more as there are a lot more mechanics that not only punish the person that messes up, but also the rest of the raid.
    What this means is that a lot of fights don't really get onto the "farm" status that they were before. This means reclears take more time (for the average raider, I am sure Spotnick just multi boxes his raids as they are so easy) as kill times don't really change after the initial kill and one person not paying attention (on farm) can result in a wipe.

    This also means that "fun runs" where you just go in with overgeared mains and some alts aren't really as big a thing anymore.
    Which I find to be a shame.

    Part of this is due to how gearing has changed. With so many sources of gear and titanforging, if raids could be brute forced they could be the second week they come out with the amount of gear players have access too. So the only way to keep the lifetime of raids longer is to make gear mean little in there and focus on fights where the difficulty lies in the mechanics.

    Major downside is that "farming" raids, which is quite a large part of raiding, now requires high levels of concentration and focus, resulting in tired raiders for the progress boss. Combine this with the fact that for most raiders there are hardly any gear upgrades to look forward to that would make the progress boss easier, raid teams hit walls quicker and raiding fatigue sets in.

    I do think there is a major issue with the effort to reward ratio of raiding at the moment compared to other sources. Having alts that haven't stepped into Mythic+ or raiding running around at item level 400 feels wrong, especially with how much effort it takes to get your raiding main to above 415 itemlevel.
    If this keeps up it will kill normal and heroic raiding even more than it already has.
    I'm not sure how you can say that when the only mechanically hard fights in BOD are Mekka and Jaina (and the latter far less so since the absolute nerfhammer she got). Everything else becomes magnitudes easier, if not a total friggin joke, with gear, hi Champion and Grong.

  6. #26
    I remember it kinda differently... HFC and ToS, to date, have been the most frustrating to re-clear. They both had a number of important bosses with a one shot mechanics and personal responsibility.

    BoD might be annoying because of impatient DPS in Conclave or communication in Mekka, and G'Huun was annoying in Uldir because apparently some people have literally no idea how orb running works. But overall most heroic fights have been fairly doable IMO.

  7. #27
    I agree with the point made that farming raids are not becoming easier in the same gradual way it has before.
    However, claiming that Heroic raiding is difficult in BFA speaks more to the overall low quality of players than the encounter difficulty.

    Raiding is supposed to require communication, and if you have players unable to communicate properly or is for some other reason hindered from participating in the minimum requirements then they should be excluded from that content.

    I am NOT trying to brag when I say this but if us players in top mythic guilds can effortlessly and without any preparation or practice go into heroic and kill the bosses first day they are released in maximum a handful of pulls, average players should be able to clear it within the first few months.

    As an example, we are almost 6 months into BoD now - and Ahead of the Curve is still available to get for players killing Jaina on Heroic. If you kill Jaina on Heroic in May-June 2019 you are literally the definition of behind the curve. Community perception of skill is way too skewed since these achievements came into the game because people that got Ahead of the Curve back when they were released have some misguided feeling of entitlement to continue getting the achievement that tells you that you are good at the game.

    The addition of Hall of Fame for all the mythic end-bosses is a GREAT system which distinguishes players from eachother, and they also benchmark when bigger nerfs come for the boss. It would be a REALLY healthy addition to the game to also limit Ahead of the Curve to a specific date set a few months after the release of new content.

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