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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Exactly who said what here? I need the actual quote before I believe it. I am willing to accept that there is one, but Googling is just finding a lot of crying and some weird fanfiction.
    "How could this be happening? How could the Horde have gotten so far, and how—in Elune’s name, why?—had the Horde chosen to burn the World Tree? This was more than war. More than cruelty. This was madness and genocide and hatred so extreme that Astarii could not understand it."
    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/st...ry/elegy#tab=5

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Right, well the reason people say it is a genocide, is because we were told it was. That is what it was intended to be. So if they tell us it is, that is what it is. I'm not sure how you can reach an alternative conclusion when 2 books and pre-expansion event are a war that march through the heaviest populated night elf zones and systemtcailly wipe everything out - you are shown and told civilians are evacuated to darkshore, then teldrassil, and it is burnt with most of the people losing their lives and told there are hardly any night elevs left in the world.

    It is what it is.
    Except the only people that said so were Alliance characters sharing their in-story opinions. Two of them at best, though I only have a strong recollection about just Anduin at this point. And their opinions (and Golden's pisspoor understanding of the term) do not get to rewrite the language.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    "How could this be happening? How could the Horde have gotten so far, and how—in Elune’s name, why?—had the Horde chosen to burn the World Tree? This was more than war. More than cruelty. This was madness and genocide and hatred so extreme that Astarii could not understand it."
    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/st...ry/elegy#tab=5
    Ah, I knew there was a second Alliance character with that opinion. But that's all this is. It's not a statement from the omniscient narrator. And even if it was, it'd still be wrong because Golden has zero authority whatsoever to change the meaning of words.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Ah, I knew there was a second Alliance character with that opinion. But that's all this is. It's not a statement from the omniscient narrator. And even if it was, it'd still be wrong because Golden has zero authority whatsoever to change the meaning of words.
    It is a statement of the narrator who explains in which context the priestress had the thoughts stated before.
    The text is reviewed by other writers at Blizzard, so if someone would have been not fine calling it genocide they would have removed it, but they did not.
    Last edited by Hellspawn; 2019-05-22 at 01:53 PM.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    It is a statement of the narrator who explains in which context the priestress had the thoughts stated before.
    The text is reviewed by other writers at Blizzard, so if someone would have been not fine calling it genocide they would have removed it, but they did not.
    Bottome line is, they wanted shock factor, a catalyst to ignite a war and get players in the two sides hating the opposing faction- doesnt really matter if the NPCs were precisely correct defining the action to accurately fit the definition of genocide.

    Since Tyrande is the one written to have commented on hardly any night elves left in the world, I based my agreement with the term genocide being applicable here. As being an Elf, and high priestess with their levels of intelligence and experience with an actual assessment of the war (she would know, she was actively involved with the effort etc), I have no reasonable cause to doubt her assessment or doubt it was the intended outcome of that story.

    Ultimately though, whether she was precisely correct or not, doesnt matter. We know blizzard can and likely will retcon something, the point was a huge loss of life, igniting a war and strumming up drama to set the stage for the expansion events.

    Once again night elves are used to take the fall, but never seen for the opposite. Seen a lot for tearing down, but never the recipients of building up or establishing. Its awfully one sided and has been since they started doing expansions. Lopsided and rather discouraging to be a fan thereof.

    Do you remember how optimistic I was about the night elves 8-9 years ago...? Others were saying it, but I wasnt listening, basing my views on lore that was outdated and was being course corrected, refusing to accept the nerfs that had been seen in wow for them, clinging and thinking the image of them set in wc3 manual and WotA was for life. Oh how foolishly optimistic and naive I was. Rather than get better, it got a whole lot worse.

    I conclude they delight Ipin misery,loss and tragedy, like they are still in the 90s when life was pretty optimistic for most people and entertainment needs to be dark and violent to give people an experience they didnt have. But it changed after 9/11, and many of our lives are dark, depressing with our societies declining, we dont really want that in our fantasy anymore, at least I dont, i want my fantasy to have more uplifting than tearing down, and tearing down if you do it should be countered with a greater upswing
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2019-05-22 at 03:58 PM.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Plehnard View Post
    I could copy the book but I don't know what Blizzard will think when I put up one of their art books into the net (even thou you can't buy it any more). So if I find the time there might be a PM for it and not an openly visible link.
    That would be great!

  6. #106
    I never really understood the Night Elves joining the Alliance. Up to WoW, they were an independent nation and very primal and quick to anger, a very savage play on elves compared to other fantasy settings. They didn't really fit in with the Alliance in the same way that the Forsaken and Blood Elves didn't fit in with the Horde up to that point. They all felt like square blocks forced into triangle holes.

  7. #107
    Give me WC3:R, Blizz! The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChampionChains View Post
    I never really understood the Night Elves joining the Alliance. Up to WoW, they were an independent nation and very primal and quick to anger, a very savage play on elves compared to other fantasy settings. They didn't really fit in with the Alliance in the same way that the Forsaken and Blood Elves didn't fit in with the Horde up to that point. They all felt like square blocks forced into triangle holes.
    I'm still of the mind that one fan interpretation of how factions could've worked would've been really neat.

    1.) The Alliance: Humans, Gnomes, and Dwarves.
    2.) The Horde: Orcs, Tauren, and Trolls.
    3.) The Sentinels: Night Elves, Draenei, and Furbolgs.
    4.) The Exiled: Forsaken, Worgen, and Blood Elves.

    Then they could've introduced sub-races for those that exist and neutrals like Goblins, Pandaren, Ethereals, etc. that can go where ever. It made more sense with the full lore explanation (like the Forsaken helping the Worgen instead of attacking them).

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by ChampionChains View Post
    I never really understood the Night Elves joining the Alliance. Up to WoW, they were an independent nation and very primal and quick to anger, a very savage play on elves compared to other fantasy settings. They didn't really fit in with the Alliance in the same way that the Forsaken and Blood Elves didn't fit in with the Horde up to that point. They all felt like square blocks forced into triangle holes.
    Like anything in WoW, gameplay comes first and the story is an afterthought. With the two factions system, Alliance needed to be in Kalimdor and there could be no neutral race.
    The "official" explanation is that the Night Elves were to weak and scared about the orcs in Ashenvale.
    WoW later made also clear that they were indeed very weak and constantly needed the help of the alliance to survive (see wolfheart, cata, mop).

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    It is a statement of the narrator who explains in which context the priestress had the thoughts stated before.
    The text is reviewed by other writers at Blizzard, so if someone would have been not fine calling it genocide they would have removed it, but they did not.
    You're stretching things beyond recognition. What they were fine with was a character (that is not omniscient and has the capacity for being wrong just like any other character) calling it genocide. Nothing more, nothing less. Anything more than that is your projection.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    "How could this be happening? How could the Horde have gotten so far, and how—in Elune’s name, why?—had the Horde chosen to burn the World Tree? This was more than war. More than cruelty. This was madness and genocide and hatred so extreme that Astarii could not understand it."
    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/st...ry/elegy#tab=5
    Aha, thank you!

    So "genocide" is based entirely on the panicked opinion of a single elf in a horrific situation (I'm sure people in Tokyo were thinking the same thing when the fire bombs fell). Well that clears a lot of things up.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Aha, thank you!

    So "genocide" is based entirely on the panicked opinion of a single elf in a horrific situation (I'm sure people in Tokyo were thinking the same thing when the fire bombs fell). Well that clears a lot of things up.
    Stop being dishonest. You think the character here would exagerate the situation just because it happened to her people? You really think the writers thought about that?
    It still baffles me that people here are saying that it's not a genocide, especially when the Horde has a history of gencocides and showing no mercy. You set a tree on fire where 90% of the NE population lives w/o giving an ultimatum after you won the battle, you think it's a military objective and there's no intent on exterminating a race?
    + there is 0 proof that the Horde made any prisoners in this war, quite the contrary : See Astranaar, and Darkshore. The Horde also wants to eradicate and gas the land/nature to make sure that every living being there is annihilated.

    Oh and you missed the part where Sylvannas wants to make them lose "HOPE", just like Arthas did to her people, aka genocide.
    Last edited by eurojust; 2019-05-22 at 07:05 PM.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Aha, thank you!

    So "genocide" is based entirely on the panicked opinion of a single elf in a horrific situation (I'm sure people in Tokyo were thinking the same thing when the fire bombs fell). Well that clears a lot of things up.
    No, read the source. My quote is not what she says. See, she probably does not think about her self in third person.

    Astarii (thinking in her mind):
    How could this be happening? How could the Horde have gotten so far, and how—in Elune’s name, why?—had the Horde chosen to burn the World Tree? This was more than war. More than cruelty.

    Narrator:
    This was madness and genocide and hatred so extreme that Astarii could not understand it.

  13. #113
    A basic level of interest for ALL races and factions should be the bare minimum requirement for ALL creatives in WoW's development. Blizzard shows such a transparent disinterest and or passive aggression towards Night Elves that it's disgusting. No one playable race should be singled out as the designated victim. Blizzard's treatment of Night Elves from Cata onwards has been beyond pathetic. There infatuation with utterly basic implementation of edgelord Undead, victimized Elves, Orcs that waffle back and forth from irredeemable monsters and honorable warriors, and disgustingly noblebright Humans has poisoned much of Warcraft's fictional universe.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    Stop being dishonest. You think the character here would exagerate the situation just because it happened to her people? You really think the writers thought about that?
    It still baffles me that people here are saying that it's not a genocide, especially when the Horde has a history of gencocides and showing no mercy. You set a tree on fire where 90% of the NE population lives w/o giving an ultimatum after you won the battle, you think it's a military objective and there's no intent on exterminating a race?
    But was this potential intent because of their race or because of them being Alliance? With Alliance being a political allegiance, which was deliberately left out of the definition of genocide? Also, you pulled that population number out of the nether.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    No, read the source. My quote is not what she says. See, she probably does not think about her self in third person.

    Astarii (thinking in her mind):
    How could this be happening? How could the Horde have gotten so far, and how—in Elune’s name, why?—had the Horde chosen to burn the World Tree? This was more than war. More than cruelty.

    Narrator:
    This was madness and genocide and hatred so extreme that Astarii could not understand it.
    The narrator describing a character's thoughts does not equal the narrator describing the facts of the world at large.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    But was this potential intent because of their race or because of them being Alliance? With Alliance being a political allegiance, which was deliberately left out of the definition of genocide? Also, you pulled that population number out of the nether.




    The narrator describing a character's thoughts does not equal the narrator describing the facts of the world at large.
    The narrator is describing "madness and genocide and hatred" as a fact that was so extreme, Astarii could not understand it. How do you fail to comprehend something so simple?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Given how they can't post as much because they keep getting banned, I'd say if anyone's spazzing out, it'd be them.
    Quote Originally Posted by sillag View Post
    im not saying all blood elf fans are weird edgelord neo-nazis

    but all weird edgelord neo-nazis in wow are blood elf rpers

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niroshi View Post
    This is the writing staff's most basic and most important problem tbh. There's a lot of cool to be found in WoW in both the Horde and the Alliance, but very little of it seems to excite the writers.
    They're aging metal heads. They like big muscular dudes with swords, and big green muscular bare-chested dudes with axes. Night elves are none of these things (usually, they did sort of slowly transform Malfurion into a huge bare-chested dude, and had Illidan do a "bulking up").

    If you want to know the fate of a race going forward, do this in your head:

    -Can you picture this race throwing sick rifts on a guitar to an Ozzy Osborne song?

    -If yes, WHOA EPIC let's do some SWEET STORIES, BRO

    -If no, race is an after thought and probably a plot foil (Eg: New, weird Sylvanas exists so Orcs and Humans have something to have a story about, even though it's the frigging Night Elves and Forsaken who have lost almost their entire nations).



    TL;DR I've become very jaded about the handling of races that can't be easily jammed into your typical GJ Joe archetype.
    Last edited by Oneirophobia; 2019-05-22 at 11:45 PM.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Niroshi View Post
    This is the writing staff's most basic and most important problem tbh. There's a lot of cool to be found in WoW in both the Horde and the Alliance, but very little of it seems to excite the writers.
    Even living in the warhammer universe is better than WoW universe, especially with these writers that are worse than Matt Ward

  18. #118
    The genocide is mentioned again in the Novella. It is a line between Tyrande speaking and Anduin thinking, but it doesn't seem to be only a thought as in Astarii's quote.

    “Then, little one, I shall name you Finel. ‘The last.’ For you are the last kaldorei to escape with your life.”

    The World Tree was more than a city. It was an entire land, home to countless innocents. How many night elves were elsewhere in Azeroth? Far too few. Now, they were all who remained of their people.

    Sylvanas Windrunner had committed genocide.

    Anduin had known she was selfish—arrogant, too. Cunning.

    Driven. But he had never expected this. Through blurred vision, he saw Genn Greymane’s face as his wife clung to him, and he realized that not even Genn, who hated Sylvanas with his whole heart, could believe it. No one had thought she would put her cruelty before her cleverness. There was no strategic purpose, no possible reason to destroy the tree. Far from it—with this unfathomable decision, Sylvanas had united the Alliance in a way nothing else could.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by SAILITY View Post
    Even living in the warhammer universe is better than WoW universe, especially with these writers that are worse than Matt Ward
    At least Matt Ward made Tomb Kings live on in Necrons. What has Afrasiabi done other than smelling his own farts.

  20. #120
    Sex Sells...

    They created a pink to purple beautiful elf with a dance that is extremely sexual. Even when I was around 15 years old in Vanilla I made a female night elf rogue that was half naked created for the only purpose to "pleasure" myself as an alt. My main was a dwarf 60 rank 10 warrior but I had a naughty elf alt also.

    I honestly believe they are playing stupid in this article. That or they were zero aware of how much sex sells.

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